Is dead angling an exploit?

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:31 pm

    hey its andres wrote:The only real use for dead angling is to finish someone off, which has more effective methods as well.


    Or if you're swinging a big slow weapon like a zweih, you won't get parried with every swing.

    That is the real use of dead angling.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:51 pm

    DAs make great shields useless. That breaks that part of the game. It hasn't been patched because it would require a complete overhaul and they are busy with DkS2.

    I've have yet to hear anything substantial about the mule epidemic, and the problems its caused. That's an example of a game breaking glitch for sure.

    They are busy, and I hope they stay busy. I wish they'd fix the hacks, but I'd prefer it if they just kept working on Dark Souls 2.

    Saying they haven't fixed it because they don't deem it relevant is wrong imo.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:57 pm

    ^Yes.


    Keep working on Dks2.

    From what i heard, they're releasing the game completely finished. The example they used as "finished" is no BB glitch as soon as it comes out. Things like that. Everyone is getting impatient, but i'd rather have them take their time and release a completely finished game instead of having to nerf everything and patch everything every couple months.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:46 pm

    I've have yet to hear anything substantial about the mule epidemic, and the problems its caused. That's an example of a game breaking glitch for sure.

    They might need some coop from Sony for that.  Those types of things aren't all that easy to detect.  What, in game or over a server, appears differently between a mule'd character and a legit one?  How would they detect that?

    That they're holding off the game until it's ready says volumes about the quality of From, so few are that good these days, and even fewer are given that license.  DS2's odds of being great are better for it though.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:45 pm

    Kind of off topic, talking about mules.

    I'll give my quick opinion. I don't mind mules. As long as this person has put countless hours into the game with countless playthroughs and earned their stars and stripes the RIGHT way, instead of simply buying Dks and loading up a mule. It's a quick way of making builds to see what you like. I don't see how it breaks the game. People do abuse it though.

    But that conversation is for another time.

    As FexDs pointed out, DA is an exploit. And that makes perfect sense. Using the games mechanics to your advantage. A glitch would be your sword getting stuck in someone's back after backstabbing them and running around trying to get unstuck (for example.)

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:52 pm

    I lieu of certain posts I would say dead Angling is an intended exploit. I still can't ignore the fact it was carried over from Demons to Dark.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:28 pm

    Same goes for toggle escape. Maybe it was unintentional at first, but it certainly added positively to the gameplay, IMO.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 2:41 am

    Jansports wrote:I lieu of certain posts I would say dead Angling is an intended exploit. I still can't ignore the fact it was carried over from Demons to Dark.

    I've wondered that a lot.  But, they made shields decent this time around...for what?

    I think it was one of those...

    "Look Namco, we still have this issue and that one...AND WE STILL HAVEN'T FINISHED THE SHIVA SIDE QUEST!!!...remember?!?!?!" said FROMSOFTWARE.

    "LOOK FROOOOOM, we are on a schedule and unless you want to wait for Sony to pick you up for Demon's Souls 2, we suggest you meet the deadline." said Namco.

    "Fine %$#hole.  But when the players are b%tch!n about not being able to summon their friends, and how sh!ty some of the weapon move sets are, DONT say we didn't tell ya.  Besides, we already gave way on the p2p system."
    said FROMSOFTWARE.

    "Don't worry, we won't.  You have 2 more weeks...make it happen."
    said Namco.

    I mean after all, business is business right?!?!  We all know Dark Souls was kinda broke when it came out. I think we all knew it felt kinda rushed in a few ways.Shrug 
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by hey its andres on Tue Jul 09, 2013 7:46 pm

    Animaal has a point. Elemental weapons were insanely unbalanced at times. 
    I think the reason for it caring over is because the games use the same engine as Dark Souls. It may be that these exploits are kinks in integral parts of the combat system that would be very difficult to remove. I really doubt these specific glitches will be in DkSII though because of the new engine. If they are then we can confirm then they are not glitches/bugs/whatever you want to call them. This is exciting though because it means that DkSII will have combat like no other Souls game so veterans and new players will start on the same page.

    ...well maybe some of us will be a few chapters ahead, but you get the point.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by omgoff on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:03 pm

    Calling it an exploit seems reasonable. It allows big, slow weapons to stay relevant in pvp. As stated in another thread, I only really abuse it when I'm facing bs fishers. If you're just going straight for my back over and over again, I'll punish you for a lack of flexibility on your play.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:04 pm

    High level play and success is not mechanic knowledge, but rather one's approach and frame of mind.  A souls veteran will be MUCH more likely to do well quickly in DS II.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:16 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:........High level play and success is not mechanic knowledge, but rather one's approach and frame of mind....

    cheers  SWEET!!!! cheers 

    Posting it again....

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Jul 09, 2013 8:55 pm

    It's fully a glitch, or more specifically a mechanical weakness in the engine and it's calculations, the same as Weapon Swap.

    While people like to tell themself it's an intentional feature of the game, it's blind to believe it's anything besides a coding quirk causes by the way the game makes calculations. Wrath of The Gods is the easiest indicator of this, as NPC's, whom the game can spend more recources on calculations for, can block while you're facing the other direction, and also fly dynamically directly away from the source of the wrath.


    Meanwhile players can not block, and are always thrown in the direction you're facing.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Rynn on Tue Jul 09, 2013 9:07 pm

    FexDS wrote:Since this discussion keeps coming up, I should add so people can differentiate and the argument can hopefully stop.

    A glitch is a completely unintended, random, unforeseen occurrence that game developers didn't see coming and have little idea of how it's happening. Bugs are forms of glitches that persist and can be easily recreated. Glitches and bugs are always the top priority of patching. An example of a glitch is getting stuck on the landscape. An example of a bug is the bottomless box share.

    An exploit is the player's cunning use of an in game mechanic to create unintended results and give themselves an advantage. As exploits are player generated, and by large dependent on core game mechanics, they are seldom patched unless they are game breaking.

    Balancing is when developers look at the practical application of intended mechanics/items/skills and how the playerbase is acting with it and decide to intervene to prevent unintended overpowered combinations. This is what happened to the fog ring, etc.

    Dead angling is, from the above, an exploit, and it is very unlikely to be removed because the effects of it are not gamebreaking and the developer has bigger issues to consider and would have to rework the mechanic completely.

     And That also makes all exploits, by that reasoning, a glitch or bug too.

    As I said a moment ago, it's a limitation of the coding, and it's a problem that persists in a lot of games i've played. It's directly based off limitations in the code.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:57 am

    TheMeInTeam wrote:High level play and success is not mechanic knowledge, but rather one's approach and frame of mind.  A souls veteran will be MUCH more likely to do well quickly in DS II.

    High level play and success is not mechanic knowledge because everybody playing at a high level already understands the game. It won't distinguish you much from other strong players, but it is very important for getting to high level play.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Wed Jul 10, 2013 5:01 am

    reim0027 wrote:Same goes for toggle escape.  Maybe it was unintentional at first, but it certainly added positively to the gameplay, IMO.

    I used to love toggle escape, it saved my butt from zwei\greatsword stun locks so many times, but my latest build is kind of a strength build and i absolutely hate toggle escape. You fight a few who  don't know it then come up against someone who knows it and you get parried or bs'd to hell.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by FexDS on Wed Jul 10, 2013 11:19 am

    Rynn wrote:
    FexDS wrote:Since this discussion keeps coming up, I should add so people can differentiate and the argument can hopefully stop.

    A glitch is a completely unintended, random, unforeseen occurrence that game developers didn't see coming and have little idea of how it's happening. Bugs are forms of glitches that persist and can be easily recreated. Glitches and bugs are always the top priority of patching. An example of a glitch is getting stuck on the landscape. An example of a bug is the bottomless box share.

    An exploit is the player's cunning use of an in game mechanic to create unintended results and give themselves an advantage. As exploits are player generated, and by large dependent on core game mechanics, they are seldom patched unless they are game breaking.

    Balancing is when developers look at the practical application of intended mechanics/items/skills and how the playerbase is acting with it and decide to intervene to prevent unintended overpowered combinations. This is what happened to the fog ring, etc.

    Dead angling is, from the above, an exploit, and it is very unlikely to be removed because the effects of it are not gamebreaking and the developer has bigger issues to consider and would have to rework the mechanic completely.

     And That also makes all exploits, by that reasoning, a glitch or bug too.

    As I said a moment ago, it's a limitation of the coding, and it's a problem that persists in a lot of games i've played. It's directly based off limitations in the code.

     No. There's a very specific difference between "no idea how you're getting stuck on a rock" "we know why this boss becomes unresponsive after x attack let's fix it" and "oh look the players are using mechanic x to trigger reaction y which we did not intend... and we can't fix it without remaking core mechanics" 

    Please don't try to muddle a very clear distinction.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 10, 2013 12:50 pm

    AnCapaillMor wrote:
    reim0027 wrote:Same goes for toggle escape.  Maybe it was unintentional at first, but it certainly added positively to the gameplay, IMO.

    I used to love toggle escape, it saved my butt from zwei\greatsword stun locks so many times, but my latest build is kind of a strength build and i absolutely hate toggle escape. You fight a few who  don't know it then come up against someone who knows it and you get parried or bs'd to hell.

    Depending on the weapon, it's very hard to toggle out of the 1st hit after a stun.  If you're playing against someone you think is good, get that one extra hit and then go for a pivot BS.  If they parry, fish, or try anything but rolling away they're going to take multiple hits + backstab.  Depending on your weapon, that will leave them nearly dead or kill them outright.

    I spent a few hours with the mace last night and you can really screw over toggle-escape parries with unlocked bashing ---> BS attempt, or kicking parries, etc.  Make that parry risky to them also, not just to you.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 10, 2013 1:12 pm

    FexDS wrote:
    Rynn wrote:
    FexDS wrote:Since this discussion keeps coming up, I should add so people can differentiate and the argument can hopefully stop.

    A glitch is a completely unintended, random, unforeseen occurrence that game developers didn't see coming and have little idea of how it's happening. Bugs are forms of glitches that persist and can be easily recreated. Glitches and bugs are always the top priority of patching. An example of a glitch is getting stuck on the landscape. An example of a bug is the bottomless box share.

    An exploit is the player's cunning use of an in game mechanic to create unintended results and give themselves an advantage. As exploits are player generated, and by large dependent on core game mechanics, they are seldom patched unless they are game breaking.

    Balancing is when developers look at the practical application of intended mechanics/items/skills and how the playerbase is acting with it and decide to intervene to prevent unintended overpowered combinations. This is what happened to the fog ring, etc.

    Dead angling is, from the above, an exploit, and it is very unlikely to be removed because the effects of it are not gamebreaking and the developer has bigger issues to consider and would have to rework the mechanic completely.

     And That also makes all exploits, by that reasoning, a glitch or bug too.

    As I said a moment ago, it's a limitation of the coding, and it's a problem that persists in a lot of games i've played. It's directly based off limitations in the code.

     No. There's a very specific difference between "no idea how you're getting stuck on a rock" "we know why this boss becomes unresponsive after x attack let's fix it" and "oh look the players are using mechanic x to trigger reaction y which we did not intend... and we can't fix it without remaking core mechanics" 

    Please don't try to muddle a very clear distinction.

     There may be a clear difference from a development standpoint, but this doesn't suddenly make the occurance not a glitch or programming quirk. By this logic one could say that in the first iterations of Call of Duty, that quickscoping wasn't a programming quirck (before they, after trying to get rid of it for 4 games, simply made it a feature).

    But I digress, it's a pointless argument since we're both essentially saying the same thing, and disagreeing on one small detail.  laughing
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by FexDS on Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:50 pm

    undefined wrote: There may be a clear difference from a development standpoint, but this doesn't suddenly make the occurance not a glitch or programming quirk. By this logic one could say that in the first iterations of Call of Duty, that quickscoping wasn't a programming quirck (before they, after trying to get rid of it for 4 games, simply made it a feature).

    But I digress, it's a pointless argument since we're both essentially saying the same thing, and disagreeing on one small detail.  laughing

    You are incorrect. Vocabulary exists for a reason and "glitch" and "exploit" are not the same thing and exploits are not glitches. Saying that everything is a programing quirk is  as saying they are all 1s and 0s... a pointless aggregation resulting in the logical fallacy:  Men have legs, Chairs have legs, therefore Chairs can run marathons. 

    The very fact that exploits often get incorporated into the game as a proper feature in later iterations of games sets them appart from "glitches" which are core mechanics *not* working as intended. Exploit is a core mechanic working as intended and being manipulated by the playerbase to do what it shouldn't. This distinction is important beccause people in this thread had been asking 1) Why did it carry over games then (because its a core mechanic working as intended being misused) and 2) Why hasn't it been fixed then (because it's player generated and not gamebreaking)

    I am not trying to pointlessly argue with you. This difference is relevant to the ongoing conversation.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:53 pm

    OMFG Fex just commented on this thread.
    **** is going down!
    Anyways dead angling is in my opinion a "glitch", but i think it's good that the creators left it in, makes you more careful about your surroundings.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Carphil on Wed Jul 10, 2013 7:56 pm

    from a PVP point of view, I think dead angling is fine, its adds another way to beat turtles and much like toogle escape, it adds more mechanics to the game. However, we can't ignore the fact that it is an exploit and people have the right to complain.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Wed Jul 10, 2013 8:19 pm

    FexDS wrote:
    undefined wrote: There may be a clear difference from a development standpoint, but this doesn't suddenly make the occurance not a glitch or programming quirk. By this logic one could say that in the first iterations of Call of Duty, that quickscoping wasn't a programming quirck (before they, after trying to get rid of it for 4 games, simply made it a feature).

    But I digress, it's a pointless argument since we're both essentially saying the same thing, and disagreeing on one small detail.  laughing

    You are incorrect. Vocabulary exists for a reason and "glitch" and "exploit" are not the same thing and exploits are not glitches. Saying that everything is a programing quirk is  as saying they are all 1s and 0s... a pointless aggregation resulting in the logical fallacy:  Men have legs, Chairs have legs, therefore Chairs can run marathons. 

    The very fact that exploits often get incorporated into the game as a proper feature in later iterations of games sets them appart from "glitches" which are core mechanics *not* working as intended. Exploit is a core mechanic working as intended and being manipulated by the playerbase to do what it shouldn't. This distinction is important beccause people in this thread had been asking 1) Why did it carry over games then (because its a core mechanic working as intended being misused) and 2) Why hasn't it been fixed then (because it's player generated and not gamebreaking)

    I am not trying to pointlessly argue with you. This difference is relevant to the ongoing conversation.

     


    I think this has made the most sense out of everything posted in this thread. It makes 100% complete sense and there's no way to argue with that logic.

    /thread.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:31 pm

    TooLeet wrote:
    I think this has made the most sense out of everything posted in this thread. It makes 100% complete sense and there's no way to argue with that logic.

    /thread.

    Changed the title to make everyone happy silly

    Just to be clear, "no it's not a glitch, it's an exploit" was not exactly what I was looking for.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Rynn on Wed Jul 10, 2013 10:40 pm

    I do [b]not[b] believe this is intentional though. Not in the least bit. I think it's a complete limitation of the engine, specifically connections. In demons souls, you could dead angle NPC's and Players, and in Dark Souls, you can only DA players. However one can note that if a host rapports an enemy, and then the wraith or spirit dead angles the NPC, then -can- dead angle that foe.

    This is because the more information that is sent, the more that can mess up, so multiplayer connections are very simplified to avoid this. This permits dead angling, it trusts the client, also resulting in lag stabs, and other calculations are simplied too.

    Such as: No pancaking, no buildup immunity, no shield deflection, and no dynamic reactions.

    Which means less information gets sent, and PvP is communicated more efficiently, usually with no negative effects.

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