Is dead angling an exploit?

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:11 pm

    Rynn wrote:The mule is to blame for the popularization of hacking on PS3.


    I fought hackers way before mega mule came out. I don't understand the connection. You put a save file onto a usb drive and transfer it onto your Ps3. 

    I don't know how hacking works, but i'm sure they can just program or whatever, any weapon/item they want. Why would they bother with a mega mule.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Rynn on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:14 pm

    Please read the word "Popularization". That means hacking became more common and popular after the mega mule introduced hacking to the masses. Since the mega mule is already hacked data, it makes people that might not have even considered hacking before, wish to play around with the data and find out more about it. And when power is at hand, abuse soon follows.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:15 pm

    Sentiel wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:He put pine resin on his TWoP.  It was quite a sight.
    He wot?
    I imagine it as the Running Firestorm from DeS.

    TheMeInTeam wrote:I would like to specifically apologize to Sentiel.  I went overboard, and made assumptions I never should have made.

    IMO using any legit-acquired item is fair game under any circumstance unless you agreed before hand not to do it.  I also feel this way about DA, toggle escapes, and everything else that's part of the game directly.  TWoD isn't bannable by Sony/Xbox unless it requires hacking, though it's bad enough to make MP trivially pointless.  DA don't fit that category, especially because one's ability to do it at all is highly situational.
    Thank you.

    It's the reason why I look for way to return my shield's it's viability in PvP. While I can heal it off, if I'm to fight in a FC, I don't want to heal there. So I'm searching for a different way to fight DAs.

    What I meant aboud DAs and TWoD being the same, was only the part that both of those ignore shields. Having a 10 meter field of constant unblockable damage is way too ridiculous to even compare to anything else.


    I would love to have skill like Animaaal. To do PvP without shield and even without Poise. I just can't. I PvP every day and every day I PvP, I get hit with melee attacks and spells that should never hit me, even with latency from Uranus. That's when Poise and shield save my butt and give me a chance to fight back.
    Most notably MLGS. That thing can sometimes hit me as I exit a roll that was away from my opponent, thus hitting me over a distance that even a SKSS can't reach.

     


    Shield's weigh you down. Dark hand or bare fish for the win. If need be, target shield. I used to use strictly target shield, but i just don't block. I don't use that button at all unless there's a weapon or pyro in my hand. Try it man. 

    No shield = less weight = more poise (that's how i look at it)

    Main reason i like poise because i like the armor's that give you poise. I'll make builds with aesthetics in mind before functionality. cheers

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:16 pm

    I fought hackers way before mega mule came out. I don't understand the connection. You put a save file onto a usb drive and transfer it onto your Ps3.

    That *is* the connection.  The bypass that allows the mule allows other things too.  One has to stop to consider how a Ps3 save file on a game that won't copy or transfer them ordinarily found its way onto a usb stick for a PC happy.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:17 pm

    Rynn wrote:Please read the word "Popularization". That means hacking became more common and popular after the mega mule introduced hacking to the masses. Since the mega mule is already hacked data, it makes people that might not have even considered hacking before, wish to play around with the data and find out more about it. And when
    power is at hand, abuse soon follows.


    Meh. Doesn't bother me. I just commit suicide and block them. I usually put up a fight until i figure out they're hacking (ie: backstab that does no damage)

    If people have to lower themselves to that degree of worthlessness, they belong on my block list wave

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:21 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    I fought hackers way before mega mule came out. I don't understand the connection. You put a save file onto a usb drive and transfer it onto your Ps3.

    That *is* the connection.  The bypass that allows the mule allows other things too.  One has to stop to consider how a Ps3 save file on a game that won't copy or transfer them ordinarily found its way onto a usb stick for a PC happy.


    I get what you're saying now. If i had to guess, they used the "backup" feature on the Ps3 and put it onto a USB drive. Put it in a PC and did whatever hackers do.

    Reversed the process back into a save file, and released it to the masses.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:27 pm

    Rynn wrote:The mule is to blame for the popularization of hacking on PS3.

    Dead Angling is a glitch, and so is Toggle Escape.
    On my stream, prior to now, I've been stunlocked before and people have asked me why i didn't TE out of it, and my response has always been "Because it's a glitch, and a rude one at that".

    That is my stance on dead angling as well. They are limitations of the game engine, and it doesn't make them ok to use. Is it ok for me to make my homing soul mass invisible? I can do it on command, i know mechanically what causes the spell to be invisible. There is also certain places on the map that one can stand to become invisible, until the opponent gets over a certain line that loads graphics in the area... is that ok?

    'cause if Dead Angling and Toggle Escape is ok, than why isn't spellswap, invisible spell graphics, and Move Speed desynch fine?
    The difference is in their abilities. Spell swap can buff unbuffable weapons, which contains the potential for twod and the running fire surge/storm swap. These are clearly and ridiculously broken, and thus the mechanic that allows it is softbanned most places, and banned in fcs. A similar situation with the dragon head glitch. It becomes a "use this or get owned by anyone (even mediocre players) who do. Overcentralising is not good for the game.  

    As I just explained, the invisible spells are unfair, in that only the host can do so on command, which creates a clear and unfair advantage, as its not potentially available to both players.

    The standing in places to be invisible thing is fair, everyone has access to it and it can be done by both parties in any given invasion, nor does it require one do it to defeat it. Probably get you hatemail though.

    I'm not fimilar with the last thing you mention, so i cannot say.

    Dead angles and toggle escapes are not like that. They can be done by both players, and neither is (virtually) a requirement to beat someone using such techniques.

    Wether you use them or not is your buisness, but thats why the toggle and das are not banned and the others are.


    Last edited by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:29 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:28 pm

    Sentiel wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:He put pine resin on his TWoP.  It was quite a sight.
    He wot?
    I imagine it as the Running Firestorm from DeS....

    Ya dude.  At first I heard the static and of course thought, "pine resin".  But then, as he got closer, I seen the TwoP aura....THEN I seen the "static" IN HIS TWOP!!!!surprised

    So I'm thinkin, "lag?!?!"  But he wasn't moonwalking or anything.  I just stood there and looked at his TWoP aura in amazement to be quite honest.

    Then he hits me with a fire/chaos weapon, and I'm losing health, but not like TWoD, and his fire weapon looks like its doing ZERO damage.

    Then, he shoots across the screen and I died with like half my health in a "standard" animation.  I think he was a hacker and a switcher.

    Sentiel wrote:....I would love to have skill like Animaaal....

    Well I'm honored, but it aint me its the spear/DWGR bro.Shrug

    Past couple months about 15-20% of time time has been pvp.  I need honing, I need it baaaad.  I’ve had my a$$ handed to me pretty badly since I got back on.  I mean I retained a lot of knowledge, but it's like riding a bike...you can't just hop back on go down a mountain.

    And also, Rynn...you're awesome.Point Up


    Last edited by Animaaal on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:09 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : DMGR-->DWGR)
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:34 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:The difference is in their abilities. Spell swap can buff unbuffable weapons, which contains the potential for twod and the running fire surge/storm swap. These are clearly and ridiculously broken, and thus the mechanic that allows it is softbanned most places, and banned in fcs. A similar situation with the dragon head glitch. It becomes a "use this or get owned by anyone (even mediocre players) who do. Overcentralising is not good for the game.  

    As I just explained, the invisible spells are unfair, in that only the host can do so on command, which creates a clear and unfair advantage, as its not potentially available to both players.

    I'm not fimilar with the last thing you mention, so i cannot say.

    Dead angles and toggle escapes are not like that. They can be done by both players, and neither is (virtually) a requirement to beat someone using such techniques.

    Wether you use them or not is your buisness, but thats why the toggle and das are not banned and the others are.

    But you said it was all ok because the bad ones get patched. Now you're saying they're all ok except I've ranked them by how bad they are and everything above a certain threshold I've chosen is not ok.

    Another exploit that both players can always do is roll swapping, where you can change weapons and get the old weapon's move on the new weapon for one attack. Gold tracer R2 with a demon's greataxe anyone?

    Sentiel wrote:I kept the number thanks to PS+, that much I will admit. However that is not unfair. You can do it on any other platform as well, only with different methods.

    Is duping not cheating? I assume when you say thanks to PS+ you mean using the items and then resetting your save file to get them back?
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Rynn on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:41 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I'm not fimilar with the last thing you mention, so i cannot say.

     It's a not very well known exploit where you force the game to not update your roll-speed, which allows you to fast roll even while overburdened. If it was better known both players would be able to do it, so long as they owned one of the 6 weapons that allow you to proc it (and you can un-equip the weapon afterwards)
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:43 pm

    Yeah.


    He has 90+ mushrooms and db's. But with ps+, he has infinite. 

    If you ever db'd or popped a mushroom during a match with me i'd smack you through the screen (in the nicest way possible)

    But let's not get on this subject. Please, do not get on this subject.

    And moveset swapping is complete ********. THAT is the definition of gamebreaking.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:43 pm

    Fine, tend to get patched. Are you done with you're semantic bull ****. i gave clear and logical reasons why the really horrible ones arn't allowed in fcs. They overcentralise and overpower everything else hands down.

    The weapon swap is closer to borderline. Its just the one move, its predictable, it doesn't virtually garuntee victory unless your opponent uses something similar (in fact it drains all your stamina with any useful swap, which could get you killed,) it is very doubtful its intentional.

    I don't use it, though i can do it. Its a novelty, more likely to get me killed than accomplish something.


    @rynn, I'd guess that would be banned. It provides a tremendous (though far from insurmountable) advantage to any person using it and it again leans towards a "use this or get owned by people who do" situation.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Rynn on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:49 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:@rynn, I'd guess that would be banned. It provides a tremendous (though far from insurmountable) advantage to any person using it and it again leans towards a "use this or get owned by people who do" situation.

    But why would it need banned? It's incompatible with the Dark Wood Grain Ring, and since it locks both weight and poise (while ignoring the wolf ring), the exploit rarely lets someone have more than 31 poise, unless they already had very high endurance anyway. since defense has decreasing returns, the advantages maintained by it are very minimal.

    Dead Angles hurt the game more.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Thu Jul 11, 2013 5:52 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Fine, tend to get patched. Are you done with you're semantic bull ****. i gave clear and logical reasons why the really horrible ones arn't allowed in fcs. They overcentralise and overpower everything else hands down.

    The weapon swap is closer to borderline. Its just the one move, its predictable, it doesn't virtually garuntee victory unless your opponent uses something similar (in fact it drains all your stamina with any useful swap, which could get you killed,) it is very doubtful its intentional.

    I don't use it, though i can do it. Its a novelty, more likely to get me killed than accomplish something.


    @rynn, I'd guess that would be banned. It provides a tremendous (though far from insurmountable) advantage to any person using it and it again leans towards a "use this or get owned by people who do" situation.

    It isn't semantics in the slightest. Your first post sounded exactly like you were saying all exploits are ok because the point of the game is to exploit and the game breaking ones get patched. Now it sounds like you hold the more common opinion that dead angling is an exploit but it's not game breaking so it's fine, but there are other exploits that are not fine.
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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:00 pm

    Rynn wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:@rynn, I'd guess that would be banned. It provides a tremendous (though far from insurmountable) advantage to any person using it and it again leans towards a "use this or get owned by people who do" situation.

    But why would it need banned? It's incompatible with the Dark Wood Grain Ring, and since it locks both weight and poise (while ignoring the wolf ring), the exploit rarely lets someone have more than 31 poise, unless they already had very high endurance anyway. since defense has decreasing returns, the advantages maintained by it are very minimal.

    Dead Angles hurt the game more.
    I don't know the details, so I cannot say for sure, but if its as you say and locks poise at 31 I don't think most people would bother with it.

    I'm not ultimately fimiliar enough to make a sound judgement, but it sounds like it could completely alter how builds are made. 30 end/fap/hornet or colathatry, full havels, weapons of choice, fast roll is not something that would be particularly good for the game, not when anyone who doesn't use it is so woefully underpowered by comparison.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by crbngville2 on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:02 pm

    +1 to the op for starting an 8 page discussion.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:02 pm

    ScottyDoesKnow wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:Fine, tend to get patched. Are you done with you're semantic bull ****. i gave clear and logical reasons why the really horrible ones arn't allowed in fcs. They overcentralise and overpower everything else hands down.

    The weapon swap is closer to borderline. Its just the one move, its predictable, it doesn't virtually garuntee victory unless your opponent uses something similar (in fact it drains all your stamina with any useful swap, which could get you killed,) it is very doubtful its intentional.

    I don't use it, though i can do it. Its a novelty, more likely to get me killed than accomplish something.


    @rynn, I'd guess that would be banned. It provides a tremendous (though far from insurmountable) advantage to any person using it and it again leans towards a "use this or get owned by people who do" situation.

    It isn't semantics in the slightest. Your first post sounded exactly like you were saying all exploits are ok because the point of the game is to exploit and the game breaking ones get patched. Now it sounds like you hold the more common opinion that dead angling is an exploit but it's not game breaking so it's fine, but there are other exploits that are not fine.
    I said exploiting is the point. When it succeeds to the point that one MUST use one or 2 exploits or simply be stomped, it is overcentralising and that is bad for any given game.

    http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/what-should-be-banned.html

    Though the topic is inherently abstract, this should give you a decent idea of what I meant.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:06 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:Fine, tend to get patched. Are you done with you're semantic bull ****. 

    Who are you talking to?

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:07 pm

    I was talking to scotty.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Leet on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:11 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:When it succeeds to the point that one MUST use one or 2 exploits or simply be stomped, it is overcentralising and that is bad for any given game.

     applause

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:13 pm

    Animaaal, I took an example from you and made this from my Quality build.
    http://mmdks.com/33zs
    I admit. I'm a chicken and use DWGR and WP to keep my distance. I was using Longsword on this build before and that thing utterly wrecks all low poise melee builds. I haven't run into a spear guy yet, but I'm sure I will eventually and get roflpoked by him to death. It's fun so far. I'll gradually take shorter and shorter weapons and perhaps even remove DWGR, but those wonky i-frames are a life saver now.

    Sorry for Off Topic. I just had to share, cos I find it mazing. ^^

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:21 pm

    To be fair, its not just exploits, its anything. It could be a piece of armor or a weapon or a car or, or , or, or, but when its "use specific thing or lose to someone who is" it meets the criteria as far as warranted goes.

    I'll spare the obvious akuma reference, It is the reason they nerfed the plasma pistol in halo reach though. For a while a plasma pistol/pistol combo would insta kill anyone inside like 20 meters. If you were inside that area and dealing with someone using that combo, you were pretty much screwed, even if you had a "power weapon" that can kill in 1 hit.


    For the record, banning dead angling is not feasable. there are too many ways for it to happen and to much room for interpretatation if it was to ban "intentional" dead angles. You would have to ban all the dead angle capable weapons, and most every weapon can do it from time to time.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:30 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:To be fair, its not just exploits, its anything. It could be a piece of armor or a weapon or a car or, or , or, or, but when its "use specific thing or lose to someone who is" it meets the criteria as far as warranted goes.

    I'll spare the obvious akuma reference, It is the reason they nerfed the plasma pistol in halo reach though. For a while a plasma pistol/pistol combo would insta kill anyone inside like 20 meters. If you were inside that area and dealing with someone using that combo, you were pretty much screwed, even if you had a "power weapon" that can kill in 1 hit.
    They did WHAT?!
    That combo was there since Halo 1. It was the only freaking way to kill Elites on Legendary, unless you were standing on a ammo crate. Kids on Xbox can't deal with something so simple as this?! You have to be joking.

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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:31 pm

    You can still do it, they just nerfed the crap out of the homing, so its really tough to do unless they're right in front of you.

    Initially it was neigh impossible to dodge unless you could get something inbetween you and the plasma. Now all you have to do is move the other direction and it misses, widely.


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    Re: Is dead angling an exploit?

    Post by Sentiel on Thu Jul 11, 2013 6:37 pm

    Nah, all you needed to is to strafe in one direction and as the plasma shot got close, very close, you went in the opposite direction. I dunno about anything post Halo 3, cos I got banned, but in 1, 2 and 3 this always worked to get the plasma off your tail. That or just plainly kill the guy that shot it at you. You can manage two-three (depends on distance) sniper shots, or five Pistol shots (dunno about AR, cos that thing is way too slow to bother with it) before the thing hits you and he has time to swap to Pistol and finish you.


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