I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

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    LunarFog
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    I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by LunarFog on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:43 pm

    Of course I'm not certain how exactly backstabs will be in a PvP setting in Dark Souls 2 but from what I already know about them the only thing I can assume is that they have smaller hitboxes, which isn't bad, but doesn't really fix the problem.  There are a lot of other theories that people have that they think will fix backstabs, like nerfing the damage if a shields on their back, or adding in a delay to it after a roll... but those are all wrong.  Hear me out.




    THE SOLUTION
    Backstabs were most likely meant to give people who were able to get the drop on someone unsuspecting a well-deserved advantage right?  Disable backstabs if the target is locked onto you.  There.  Bs fishing problem solved.  It probably would have taken 2 minutes to make that an update in the current Dark Souls.

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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by SadPanda on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:57 pm

    LunarFog wrote:Of course I'm not certain how exactly backstabs will be in a PvP setting in Dark Souls 2 but from what I already know about them the only thing I can assume is that they have smaller hitboxes, which isn't bad, but doesn't really fix the problem.  There are a lot of other theories that people have that they think will fix backstabs, like nerfing the damage if a shields on their back, or adding in a delay to it after a roll... but those are all wrong.  Hear me out.




    THE SOLUTION
    Backstabs were most likely meant to give people who were able to get the drop on someone unsuspecting a well-deserved advantage right?  Disable backstabs if the target is locked onto you.  There.  Bs fishing problem solved.  It probably would have taken 2 minutes to make that an update in the current Dark Souls.

    I heard something suggesting that the fourish of hits would probably only be on smaller weapons. And on bigger weapons it would be a big wind up hit, kind of like the backstab the turtle knight does in the E3 trailer.

    I like the solution. Gankers will of course be problematic, but hey, that's that. I don't have a problem with gankers, if they need to 2v1 to enjoy PvP, that's their cup of tea. I also would like to hope there would be a way to cancel a backstab after it's initiated, so in friendly duels, or playing against new players, you can show them their errors without having to kill them. It would also be fun to mess with gankers doing that :3


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by Cronotis on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:11 pm

    "How to fix BS" has been discussed at length across numerous forums since DkS came out.  Your solution has been brought up like many other ideas and there's never been any consensus.

    There's are some  problems with theory-crafting related to BS.  One is that there are several other issues that tie into the BS discussion.  Poise, DWGR, roll immunity, etc.  Some say fix A, D, G, and others say that C, E and H are the problem.  Another thing is that all the theory-crafting in the world doesn't mean squat until you actually play with the changes.


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by SadPanda on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:23 pm

    Really all I can say is, don't worry about it. One small possible flaw won't ruin an otherwise most-likely amazing game. The bad backstab mechanics didn't ruin Dark Souls, so why would a possibly bad mechanic ruin the sequel?


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by MosquitoPower on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:36 pm

    This is quite the "discussed" topic so im just going to come at it from a PVE side.

    Im all for stealth becoming more of a element in DS2.

    So I would be fine with your idea:
    -If an enemy has me "locked on" then I can't "backstab". I can only do something more like a "grab" that causes damage, but not as much as if would if I caught the enemy unaware.


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:37 pm

    LunarFog wrote:Of course I'm not certain how exactly backstabs will be in a PvP setting in Dark Souls 2 but from what I already know about them the only thing I can assume is that they have smaller hitboxes, which isn't bad, but doesn't really fix the problem.  There are a lot of other theories that people have that they think will fix backstabs, like nerfing the damage if a shields on their back, or adding in a delay to it after a roll... but those are all wrong.  Hear me out.




    THE SOLUTION
    Backstabs were most likely meant to give people who were able to get the drop on someone unsuspecting a well-deserved advantage right?  Disable backstabs if the target is locked onto you.  There.  Bs fishing problem solved.  It probably would have taken 2 minutes to make that an update in the current Dark Souls.
    I disagree. My basis is that, wether you are engaged with an opponent or not, if they are behind you they have time and space to land a "critical," an attack aimed at a weak point, and the victim cannot see the attack to respond properly making it unlikely that they escape without a potentially fatal or debilitating wound, let alone without taking damage at all. The "lock" animation is a symbol, like many things in dark souls, intended to relay the gravity of your mistake and to prevent escaping with undue ease.

    Thats my interpretation anyways.


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by O1va_ on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:13 am

    LunarFog wrote:
    THE SOLUTION
    Backstabs were most likely meant to give people who were able to get the drop on someone unsuspecting a well-deserved advantage right?  Disable backstabs if the target is locked onto you.  There.  Bs fishing problem solved.  It probably would have taken 2 minutes to make that an update in the current Dark Souls.


    Don't like it at all. What about punishing sloppy play with slow weapon, healing, casting and all other things that you should be able to punish? And the ganking, I like to fight ganks, be it in forest or invading questers. It's hard enough allready, now I can't even BS them but theres one or two of them that can BS me? Don't like it at all.
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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by passivefamiliar on Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:08 am

    all ideas are...if at best. I don't like the lock on on myself because then turtles could become an issue. Or, the mentioned gankers.

    Iml still fond of the 'shield on back = x% less damage.


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by Leeroy_Jenkins on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:05 am

    My personal opinion is that back stabs should be solely for stealth Idk how they would do that though :(I also think you souldn't be able to bs someone with a shield on there back or it does very little damage...


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by Ephexis on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:20 am

    Leeroy_Jenkins wrote:My personal opinion is that back stabs should be solely for stealth Idk how they would do that though :(I also think you souldn't be able to bs someone with a shield on there back or it does very little damage...

     if this were the case, then players wielding very large weapons 2 handed with a shield on their back(something like grass crest shield for stamina or something) can just spam their slow but hard hitting R1 until they deplete their stamina and never have to worry about someone circling around BSing them

    getting parried is that persons main weakness for the most part, but if the enemy cant parry worth **** than there's a problem d:

    but really, anyone 2 handing their weapon is immune from getting BS'd as long as they have a shield on their back
    so if they try to heal, cast a spell etc. there's no way you can prevent that from happening unless you can stagger the caster/healer in time


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by Avenger649 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:58 pm

    I have to disagree with your solution, purely because it would discourage people from playing unlocked and that would stop dead angles and all sorts of other useful techniques because it would be simpler to just stay locked on and gain immunity to one of the enemies main forms of damage.
    This would make strength weapons near useless because they would be slow, easy to parry and easy to block.


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by swordiris on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:01 pm

    How about they fix the internet.

    Backstabs are fine the way they are in a perfect connection. I never am the type to complain about "Lag stabs" though as it isn't the opponents fault.


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by Leeroy_Jenkins on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:33 pm

    Ephexis wrote:
    Leeroy_Jenkins wrote:My personal opinion is that back stabs should be solely for stealth Idk how they would do that though :(I also think you souldn't be able to bs someone with a shield on there back or it does very little damage...

     if this were the case, then players wielding very large weapons 2 handed with a shield on their back(something like grass crest shield for stamina or something) can just spam their slow but hard hitting R1 until they deplete their stamina and never have to worry about someone circling around BSing them

    getting parried is that persons main weakness for the most part, but if the enemy cant parry worth **** than there's a problem d:

    but really, anyone 2 handing their weapon is immune from getting BS'd as long as they have a shield on their back
    so if they try to heal, cast a spell etc. there's no way you can prevent that from happening unless you can stagger the caster/healer in time
    I've been playing alot of DS so I forgot about poise lol but I was looking at it from a very realist perspective, It should be real tough to stab through a shield (I mean have you ever tried just stabbing a piece of wood?) and I think this should be shown in some way...


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    Re: I think they're going about fixing backstabs the wrong way

    Post by MosquitoPower on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:25 pm

    Ephexis wrote:...then players wielding very large weapons 2 handed with a shield on their back(something like grass crest shield for stamina or something) can just spam their slow but hard hitting R1 until they deplete their stamina and never have to worry about someone circling around BSing them...

    I have to comment that this statement because it sums up one of the major issues I hope they fix in DarkSouls2.

    If some someone just used up all their stamina, then theoretically they are not going to be able to block/attack for a short time, and they are now open for getting hit with (possibly) multiple normal attacks.

    However if the other player proceeded to try and use normal attacks in that situation:
    1. It would cause next to no damage (compared to a BS).
    2. The player could not get close enough to attack in time.
    3. The player may be out of stamina also from dodging/blocking the attacks.

    There are just no other options than for people to use other than running for the backstab =(


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