A confused PvP newbie

    Share
    avatar
    dreamforger
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 45
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-04-29
    Location : London, innit

    A confused PvP newbie

    Post by dreamforger on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:35 pm

    I've been playing DkS for about eighteen months now, mainly helping others in co-op.  I've completed the game several times and consider myself pretty knowledgeable about PvE.

    However, I feel like I need a change and want to start more PvP.  Over the last few weeks I've read pages and pages of advice (some on this forum, some outside of it), but all it has done is make me more confused.  It seems that almost everything is frowned upon by some people - sorcery, miracles, backstabs, tank builds, fast, agile builds.  Some say that the heal miracle is okay, others that it's not allowed, others that buffing weapons is 'wrong'.  I'm just so confused confused .

    I was thinking of trying to start with the Forest Hunters and just get experience, but again, have heard good and bad about doing this (often being outnumbered, for example). 

    I tend to play with intelligence builds and have the weapon scaling that goes with it, but am now doubting if this is a good thing for PvP.  Do I need to change my playing style?  I've tried them all, but just feel comfortable with an Int/Dex build (I like the speed, agility and love using the katanas). 

    Do I take my sorcerer into the PvP world and see what happens?  Or do I create a specific build? 

    Many thanks in advance for any advice.
    avatar
    ResIsBestStat
    Hollowed
    Hollowed

    Posts : 1863
    Reputation : 6
    Join date : 2013-03-25
    Age : 19
    Location : I'm homeless

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:57 pm

    I know how you feel man.
    I was once like you, I was skilled in PvE, but never tried PvP. I was also surprised by the amount of what I call "competitive nerfs" existed in Dark Souls. No Dark Magic, no Hornet Ring, no Chain Backstabs. After a while I finally understood. I simply made my build and checked if it worked in PvP without thinking about these nerfs.
    In other words, stop thinking what others would think and go get em tiger.
    And if anyone criticizes you, just tell them that it's your playstyle and they DON'T HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT!


    P.S: don't gank plz
    avatar
    SirArchmage
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1146
    Reputation : 85
    Join date : 2013-04-24
    Age : 21
    Location : 537 Paper Street Soap Company

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by SirArchmage on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:08 pm

    First off, you are new. Don't nerf yourself because others think things are cheap. That can come later when you actually have a fairly good enough grasp of pvp to have more kills then deaths and compete well in fight clubs.

    Secondly, I assume you know what Mugen Monkey is as you have been using the forum. Using it to show us your build could help us give you advice on it and whether you would want to start a new build or not.

    Thirdly, http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t22092-the-archmages-magical-realm-of-interesting-builds Shameless advertisement

    Fourthly, Dark Moons might be a good place to start. The forest is the cesspool of Dark Souls, while in the Dark Moons you won't be invading people many, many levels higher then you. So you can get some good practice on lower leveled people. Darkwraiths and forest hunters get more consistent invasions however.

    Fifthly, look up things about the different spells and how to use them so you may get the best out of them in a PvP setting. Like Crystal Soul Spear is only good at long range, Dragon Breath is good when unlocked, Homing Crystal Soul Mass is mainly just good for making people dodge around, and Dark Orb is good for tricking people into thinking that you are casting Dark Bead.

    Have fun.


    _________________
    :sign: I don't kill you in the most effective of ways. I kill you in the funniest. :sign:
    "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
    -Ernest Hemmingway

    The Heretic was here twisted Mwa haha
    avatar
    dreamforger
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 45
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-04-29
    Location : London, innit

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by dreamforger on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:09 pm

    Thank you for your quick reply. 

    This is what I want to do - try my build out and see how I go, and not get a one-hit death every time I step into the forest.  If I'm rubbish (which I probably will be at first), then fine.  I see videos of people PvPing with very little vitality and admittedly, they look extremely skilled, but it's nice to see them break this mould that you have to have X amount of vitality, X amount of endurance, etc, before you can even start.  If I had, say, 40 of both, then it wouldn't leave much for anything else.

    And don't worry, I wont gank not me .


    _________________
    Xbox: dreamforger1
    avatar
    TheMeInTeam
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1010
    Reputation : 42
    Join date : 2012-11-05
    Age : 34
    Location : 1337 Accuracy Way

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:10 pm

    Do whatever you think will work, don't worry about the complaints.

    However DO note that if you invade in the forest, it is very common to fight ganks.  Beating them is gratifying, but people hang there with phantoms specifically to kill FH.  This style of PvP can be very fun (especially as invader) but it's not for the faint of heart.  You might have more fun picking up a red eye orb and invading in the SL 55 range at various areas to get used to it and see what appeals to you (you can invade as a red in the forest too).

    If you're looking for true 1v1 duels and not invasions you'll probably want to go higher though.
    avatar
    dreamforger
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 45
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-04-29
    Location : London, innit

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by dreamforger on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:29 pm

    Brilliant!  Thank you for your replies, SirArchmage and TheMeInTeam. 

    Darkmoons would be good, but I hear many people say that it's often slow with to get summoned, so not sure about that.  Plus it's mainly faith, and I'm not great with miracles (although I have played in Sunlight covenant and enjoyed using them).

    Ah yes, I'm aware of the Mugen Monkey as I've spent ages on it trying to get a decent build, so I'll have another go when I'm a bit clearer on where I want to go covenant-wise.  And thanks for the list of interesting builds - will definitely have a good read of that tonight happy.

    And thanks for the advice about the forest.  I never saw myself as a Darkwraith, but I'm warming towards it as I think it'll give me what I'm looking for.  Okay, thanks guys.  I can finally see a light at the end of the tunnel and have a bit more direction.  Really appreciate the advice.
    avatar
    SirArchmage
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1146
    Reputation : 85
    Join date : 2013-04-24
    Age : 21
    Location : 537 Paper Street Soap Company

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by SirArchmage on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:39 pm

    dreamforger wrote:Brilliant!  Thank you for your replies, SirArchmage and TheMeInTeam. 

    Darkmoons would be good, but I hear many people say that it's often slow with to get summoned, so not sure about that.  Plus it's mainly faith, and I'm not great with miracles (although I have played in Sunlight covenant and enjoyed using them).

    Ah yes, I'm aware of the Mugen Monkey as I've spent ages on it trying to get a decent build, so I'll have another go when I'm a bit clearer on where I want to go covenant-wise.  And thanks for the list of interesting builds - will definitely have a good read of that tonight happy.

    And thanks for the advice about the forest.  I never saw myself as a Darkwraith, but I'm warming towards it as I think it'll give me what I'm looking for.  Okay, thanks guys.  I can finally see a light at the end of the tunnel and have a bit more direction.  Really appreciate the advice.
    While Darkmoons are granted one of the most powerful spells in the game, they don't necessarily need a buff. I have a battle mage that uses no faith but is a Dark Moon.

    Also, Darkwraiths are the pimps of Dark Souls


    _________________
    :sign: I don't kill you in the most effective of ways. I kill you in the funniest. :sign:
    "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."
    -Ernest Hemmingway

    The Heretic was here twisted Mwa haha
    avatar
    CarverUpqik
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 261
    Reputation : 2
    Join date : 2013-03-25
    Age : 27
    Location : Cleveland Ohio

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by CarverUpqik on Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:40 pm

    i dont care what anyone says its your game do whatever you want to win some people may not like how you do it but oh well its just a fricking game like i absolutely hate people who spam magic but you know what if they do it everytime we end up in one of eachothers world i just block them on psn and thats the end of it because if you block them on psn they cant have any contact with you even on psn. so no invading you from them and vice versa

    EDIT: and personally i do really well with a faith str build min 30 str because alot of time i like to use grant, and although its not a great super strong weapon it does good damage and not alot of people expect you to use it but miracles i often use are karmic justice and vow of silence they help alot, vow more than karmic but karmic helps against fast builds just dont use it against slow weapons like large club or DGA but against spears it works well and HOLY HELL it does wonders agains gold tracer spammers

    EDIT 2: decided id show you what my general setup is on my str/fth  http://mmdks.com/2zrj  before the DWGR patch it was DWGR in plave of the cloranthy


    _________________
    avatar
    dreamforger
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 45
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-04-29
    Location : London, innit

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by dreamforger on Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:08 pm

    More good advice - thank you.  I like the look of your build there, CarverUpqik - those strength builds really intimidate me.
    avatar
    CarverUpqik
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 261
    Reputation : 2
    Join date : 2013-03-25
    Age : 27
    Location : Cleveland Ohio

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by CarverUpqik on Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:17 pm

    ^_^ no problem always feels good to help in anyway i can


    _________________

    sids__09
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 48
    Reputation : 2
    Join date : 2013-07-01

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by sids__09 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:50 pm

    I tried breaking into PVP via the forest a while ago, and it was so disheartening that I quit :/

    Just recently I picked the game back up and joined Darkmoons. It's much, much, MUUUUUCH better, at least in terms of the learning-curve. See with Darkmoon you still get ganked a lot -- it's pretty common to run into two guys just hanging around to hunt Darkmoons with lag-backstabs and whatnot, BUT, there's no lower-level limit -- which means that often as not, the guys 'ganking' you are actually at a pretty hefty soul-level disadvantage. It doesn't give you the upper-hand per se, but it greatly reduces the chances of you getting totally boned. 

    Also, while the rate of invasion is a little bit slower for YOU, the Darkmoon, it's pretty quick for the sinner -- by which I mean if you show up and you're outnumbered, you only have to buy a little bit of time before a darkwraith or a fellow Darkmoon shows up to even the odds. I've only been doing this for a couple days now but I haven't run into ANY 3v1's -- some 2v1's, yeah, that's common enough, but like I said it evens out pretty quick if you need it to.

    Last, invading outside of Anor Londo is a breeze for newbies because there's no humanity requirement; you can attack from the safety of Hollow form, which is great for me because I get spanked as often as not, and that would burn through my humanity pretty fast. If you like to balance PVP and PVE, Darkmoon seems like a pretty good choice, since you can drop your Blue Orb and go about your business without worrying about getting invaded (of course you can go in human form too, if that's what you like; it's just another option, and I like choices)



    So.... yeah. Darkmoons! So glad I went for it this playthrough, it's been a total dream. And best of all it feels like I'm actually holding my own/learning now, which hopefully means I can evolve into Gravelord Form later on a different toon.
    avatar
    Brodyzera
    Newbie
    Newbie

    Posts : 15
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-02-15
    Age : 22
    Location : Vancouver, WA

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Brodyzera on Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:57 pm

    I started out in the forest PvP with a level 50 dex build.  It was bad, BUT everything felt so much better once I got to Kiln and other PvP hotspots with darkwraith.  I'd say practice in the forest since its very easy to get started there.  You will learn to deal with every single situation possible there.  Also, don't worry and being "OP".  There's a counter to everything.


    _________________
    Check out my channel (BSWES), which has music, gameplay videos, and more!
    avatar
    Dibsville
    Abyss Dweller
    Abyss Dweller

    Posts : 9377
    Reputation : 134
    Join date : 2013-03-09
    Age : 20
    Location : Gensōkyō

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Dibsville on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:18 pm

    Start out however you like. You're new to the game, you should get a basic grasp on everything. Over time, you'll begin to like and hate certain things. Like everyone, you'll make your own little rules that you try to follow while PvPing, such as don't backstab fish (Where all you do is backstab to win instead of just fighting the other person.) As a new player, you aren't expected to immediately follow the ethics of everyone else, so just go as you please.


    _________________
    PSN: Dibsville
    The Exiled of Ariamis; join the cause!
    EarthScraper wrote:OK, now I've just learnt that you never mess with Dibs on a Dark Souls topic, cause he will put you down.
    avatar
    TheMeInTeam
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1010
    Reputation : 42
    Join date : 2012-11-05
    Age : 34
    Location : 1337 Accuracy Way

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:29 pm

    Last, invading outside of Anor Londo is a breeze for newbies because there's no humanity requirement; you can attack from the safety of Hollow form, which is great for me because I get spanked as often as not, and that would burn through my humanity pretty fast.

    You only lose humanity by hosting (as gravelord or not) and losing.  Darkwraiths have to be human to invade, but don't lose humanity from dying if they pick up their bloodstain again (you don't go hollow upon defeat as a darkwraith).  Forest Hunters and Darkmoons can both invade while hollow. 

    What this means is that unless you get killed by PvE mobs immediately after losing a darkwraith invasion, you don't lose souls OR humanity as an invader at all.

    Darkmoons might be the best to start in due to the SL thing, but that depends on preference.  My first covenant was FH and it's still my favorite place to invade happy.  I was trolling around with my SL10 intended for the lowbie event, but using end-game stuff to invade the forest.  Killing two SL 55-60 guys as a SL 10 is such a fun feeling lol.  Unfortunately, at SL10 you just don't have answers to SL 100+ gankers with the right magic setups, but I'll pick those up as I level my character after the event, similar to my other characters...although my first priority will probably be picking up an attuenment slot and an ascended flame +5 after the event.  Nothing caps a stunlock like a pyro swap after running out of stamina ^_^.

     
    Over time, you'll begin to like and hate certain things. Like everyone, you'll make your own little rules that you try to follow while PvPing, such as don't backstab fish (Where all you do is backstab to win instead of just fighting the other person.) As a new player, you aren't expected to immediately follow the ethics of everyone else, so just go as you please.

    Not everyone makes up rules, even after playing a while.  I certainly haven't.  If anything, his real goal should be to find the style of play that is most enjoyable to him and then seek to make builds that reflect it.
    avatar
    Dibsville
    Abyss Dweller
    Abyss Dweller

    Posts : 9377
    Reputation : 134
    Join date : 2013-03-09
    Age : 20
    Location : Gensōkyō

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Dibsville on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:44 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    Over time, you'll begin to like and hate certain things. Like everyone, you'll make your own little rules that you try to follow while PvPing, such as don't backstab fish (Where all you do is backstab to win instead of just fighting the other person.) As a new player, you aren't expected to immediately follow the ethics of everyone else, so just go as you please.

    Not everyone makes up rules, even after playing a while.  I certainly haven't.  If anything, his real goal should be to find the style of play that is most enjoyable to him and then seek to make builds that reflect it.
    Everyone makes up rules eventually.
    Everyone.


    _________________
    PSN: Dibsville
    The Exiled of Ariamis; join the cause!
    EarthScraper wrote:OK, now I've just learnt that you never mess with Dibs on a Dark Souls topic, cause he will put you down.
    avatar
    omgoff
    Newbie
    Newbie

    Posts : 32
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-06-29
    Location : Texas

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by omgoff on Wed Jul 03, 2013 6:06 pm

    I'll echo what others have said: do what you are comfortable with when it comes to pvp. Don't waste your time being concerned with what others deem acceptable in pvp. When I started out pvping, I usually used katanas because I was comfortable with the their moveset. I received some hatemail for it, but brushed it off as I was still learning the ropes. Once you have a little practice you can join an FC and challenge yourself in new ways.
    avatar
    dreamforger
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 45
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-04-29
    Location : London, innit

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by dreamforger on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:00 pm

    Wow, really helpful advice from everyone - thank you.  I'm now confused where to start, though.  I can see benefits to the Forest Hunters, Darkmoons and Darkwraiths.  Sids_09, your answer regarding the Darkmoons sounds really good.  The forest is probably a bit too chaotic for me to be honest.  I also do like the sound of the Darkwraiths.  I've spent all my time co-oping and helping others - maybe now it's time to be evil?  I'll sleep on it and start a new build tomorrow. 

    Oh, and SirArchmage, I loved some of those builds there - really interesting stuff. 

    Thanks to you all Proper Bow
    avatar
    Dibsville
    Abyss Dweller
    Abyss Dweller

    Posts : 9377
    Reputation : 134
    Join date : 2013-03-09
    Age : 20
    Location : Gensōkyō

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Dibsville on Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:11 pm

    Start wherever you want. You can use each covenant to your liking. Each one has its advantages and disadvantages.

    The main ones being:

    -Darkwraiths are more likely to pair you with players who are expecting to get invaded, so you can learn basic strategies from people who know what they're doing.

    -Darkmoons are more likely to pair you with people who are simply trying to do PvE, so you can see how different people react to different things.

    -Forest Hunters can be used to hone your skills in things that most people tend to hate, such as backstabs. While it may seem bad at first, it's always good to know how to do them in case the situation arises where you need them. If you can backstab effectively, you can go up against a bigger variety of enemies.

    I'd say start with the Darkmoons or Forest Hunters, but that's just me. I started with Forest Hunters myself, not knowing that Darkmoons or Darkwraiths existed, and it ruined my first PvP experiences, but it did teach me basic knowledge of how a few mechanics work, and I found later on that I had never learned them I'd probably never have made any progress in PvP.


    _________________
    PSN: Dibsville
    The Exiled of Ariamis; join the cause!
    EarthScraper wrote:OK, now I've just learnt that you never mess with Dibs on a Dark Souls topic, cause he will put you down.
    avatar
    Leet
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1375
    Reputation : 70
    Join date : 2013-06-10
    Age : 25

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Leet on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:04 pm

    Everybody has left you pretty good information. What i did was find a weapon class i liked and go from there. I originally started with big weapons. The zwei used to be my thing. But after getting the uchi, i went the total opposite direction and have so many dex builds it's stupid. They're mostly all the same except for a few different points here and there. It's quite a bad time to start PVPing for a new guy with all the Mega mule accounts out there. You'll be facing perfect builds that took 2 seconds to make. After you gain your footing and understand the mechanics it won't matter to you. Find a weapon you like and go for it. Learn the movesets to a T. Figure out all the mechanics or at least what you can. Figure out what you should and shouldn't do and above all, learn how to backstab. I know that sounds bad, but you have to learn how to backstab to counter it. That was my biggest problem when i first started. Oh, and if you're down for it, parrying will help a LOT. Everything you need to know about anything on this forum and there's tons and tons of very skilled players that will be more than willing to help you with anything you need to know.


    Good luck. Proper Bow

    avatar
    Saturday-Saint
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 961
    Reputation : 48
    Join date : 2012-12-09
    Age : 25

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:45 pm

    dreamforger wrote:It seems that almost everything is frowned upon by some people
    This is correct.

    dreamforger wrote:I was thinking of trying to start with the Forest Hunters and just get experience, but again, have heard good and bad about doing this (often being outnumbered, for example).
    I'd suggest starting off by invading questers. Forest is probably the last place I'd suggest for people starting PvP.

    dreamforger wrote:I tend to play with intelligence builds and have the weapon scaling that goes with it, but am now doubting if this is a good thing for PvP.  Do I need to change my playing style?  I've tried them all, but just feel comfortable with an Int/Dex build (I like the speed, agility and love using the katanas).
    Int/Dex is very good, but it's easy to mess up builds if you don't know what you're doing.


    _________________
    Joking aside.
    avatar
    reim0027
    Moderator
    Moderator

    Posts : 6715
    Reputation : 381
    Join date : 2012-01-28

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by reim0027 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:40 pm

    Find players to spar with, or to have duels. Invade a lot. Expect to lose and learn from your mistakes. The Forest is really tough and a different kind of PvP than anywhere else. Do Fight Club events.


    _________________


    PSN usernames: reim0027_2,   reim0027_3,  and reim0027_5.  Skype ID: reim0027  
    Tour of Lordran Soul Levels  //  Official Wiki Fight Club // Forest Invasion Soul Levels // Low Level Invasion Rules
    avatar
    dreamforger
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 45
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-04-29
    Location : London, innit

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by dreamforger on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:35 am

    TooLeet wrote:Oh, and if you're down for it, parrying will help a LOT.

    I have to say that I'm a bit of a parrying fanatic in PvE, but I'm aware how different it is in PvP.  I just think it's skillful, pure and devastating, so will be looking to use it in PvP, for sure. 

     
    Saturday-Saint wrote:I'd suggest starting off by invading questers.  Forest is probably the last place I'd suggest for people starting PvP.

    Int/Dex is very good, but it's easy to mess up builds if you don't know what you're doing.
      
     Thank you.  It's looking more and more like the Darkwraiths for me at the moment.  My theory with an Int/Dex build is using enchanted katanas/rapiers to scale with Int, not Dex, seeing as my Int will probably be what I put most points in to. 


    reim0027 wrote:Find players to spar with, or to have duels.  Invade a lot.  Expect to lose and learn from your mistakes.  The Forest is really tough and a different kind of PvP than anywhere else.  Do Fight Club events.

    Fight Club events sound good.  I'll definitely look into this - thank you.
    avatar
    Saturday-Saint
    Caffeinated
    Caffeinated

    Posts : 961
    Reputation : 48
    Join date : 2012-12-09
    Age : 25

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:36 am

    Don't go Int/Dex if you're going to use enchanted weapons, just go pure Int with minimum strength/dex to use your weapons.


    _________________
    Joking aside.
    avatar
    dreamforger
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 45
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-04-29
    Location : London, innit

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by dreamforger on Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:11 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Don't go Int/Dex if you're going to use enchanted weapons, just go pure Int with minimum strength/dex to use your weapons.

    Thank you for clearing that up, Saturday-Saint.  I was trying to keep those at the minimum for the weapons I want to use, so that's great as I can go with the high Int.
    avatar
    Carphil
    Chat Moderator

    Posts : 4921
    Reputation : 90
    Join date : 2012-01-17
    Age : 21
    Location : Brazil

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Carphil on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:05 am

    Hey there! I hope i'm not too late!

    Since you've been playing for a long time, I'm guessing that you know most of the game mechanincs by now, but I still recommend you to take a look at this thread:

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t7925-an-introduction-to-dark-souls-pvp-v08

    You might find some information that you're missing, if you're patient enough to read for a bit


    cheers


    _________________
    It may take a day or ten thousand years, but I will find her. This is a promise.

    I'm not the chosen one, I'm the one who chose to be more.

    Carphil_BR on PSN :bas:

    Sponsored content

    Re: A confused PvP newbie

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:36 am