Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Leeroy_Jenkins on Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:48 am

    "I am one of the Monumentals.
    We preserve the fabric of reality.
    There is something thou need'st to know.
    Once, we too, a scourge of Demons faced.In the distant past.
    Under a benevolent rule the world was unite'd, owing to the soul arts.
    Until, a lust for power caus'd the awakening of the Old One.
    Across the land seep'd a colourless Deep Fog,
    and the world faced extinction at the hands of the Demons.
    Thanks be, we were able to lull the Old One back to Its slumber,
    yet only after the loss of innumerable souls,
    and half the world, lost…eras'd by the fog...
    "


     "The Old one, along with the maiden, were swept back into the lulling fog.
    Boletaria was spared from the Demons, but also lost its knowledge of soul arts.
    The souls lost during the pandemonium were never retrieved.
    And today, the unstable world has another Monumental to hold its fabric together.
    A brave new hero of unprecedented power." Good ending dialogue DS

    And then you wake up and do it again. so my conjecture was that you were a new hero repeating the quest x centuries after or whatever after the world fell apart again. The OP also mentioned a loop he saw which is why I said I thought the souls games were cyclic and agreed with him.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Encore on Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:56 am

    I am not following, what does that have to do with DkS?


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Leeroy_Jenkins on Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:07 am

    I said I agreed with OP (I feel his logic was sound and drawn from concrete evidence as in txt) and that I thought DS was cyclic too (I was pointing out I thought they were similar in this way). you then said "Oh, first off, DeS is not related to DkS. Motivations behind NG + and such is therefore different." The OP speculation was then further scrutinized so he responded and also showed that he felt DS and DK were related and he showed examples as to why he felt this way. you wrote them all off as similarities and throwbacks. I mentioned that not being physically and legally related as in a sequel or something doesn't necessarily make them separate and different (meaning the happenings and reason between NG and NG+ could be similar) You then stated that you never denied similarities wherein I wrote "'I've always thought the souls games were cyclic in there stories and that between the game and new game x centuries passed... '
     Here's me stating a point in which I feel the two games are similar.
    'Oh, first off, DeS is not related to DkS. Motivations behind NG + and such is therefore different.' -Cat
    Here's you rejecting my view and denying they are similar."
    As an example of you rejecting similarity.
    You then posted "I meant souls game as in Dark Soul, badly phrasing right there. I apologized for any misunderstanding.
    With game and new game I mean first play through and consecutive NG +
    The cyclic is also explained further down, as someone misunderstood that too, and I cleared it up." I'm not sure which posts specifically you are trying to clarify please cite them. And as for my last post I was simply showing where I draw the thought of DS being cyclic from, which along with the OP's idea of DKS being cyclic and my own personal pre-established beliefs I stated
    Leeroy_Jenkins wrote:I've always thought the souls games were cyclic in there stories and that between the game and new game x centuries passed...
    I really hope this helps you follow how I see things... and what I feel.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Encore on Fri Jul 05, 2013 6:40 am

    ... I think there has been a fundamental misunderstanding regarding our beliefs on the matter. I thought one of the quote where you said something was me, and in confusion I tried to clear it up.

    I still stand by the "Oh, first off, DeS is not related to DkS. Motivations behind NG + and such is therefore different." and my belief that there is no connection other than throwbacks and shout outs. Once again, I apologize for the confusion.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Elifia on Fri Jul 05, 2013 7:33 am

    I'm gonna throw in some quotes regarding the 'pygmy=dark lord' thing.
    Opening Cinematic wrote:Then, from the Dark, they came, and found the Souls of Lords within the flame.

    Nito, the First of the Dead.
    The Witch of Izalith, and her daughters of Chaos.
    Gwyn, the Lord of Sunlight, and his faithful knights.
    And the furtive pygmy, so easily forgotten.
    Kaathe wrote:Hmm… You are astonishing.
    The truth I shall share without sentiment.
    After the advent of fire, the ancient lords found the three souls.
    But your progenitor found a fourth, unique soul.
    The Dark Soul.

    The cinematic tells you that the pygmy did indeed find a Lord Soul. And then Kaathe tells you that your progenitor was the forgotten 4th Lord because he found the Dark Soul.
    But then Kaathe said this:

    Kaathe wrote:Your ancestor claimed the Dark Soul and waited for Fire to subside.
    And soon, the flames did fade, and only Dark remained.
    Thus began the age of men, the Age of Dark.
    However…
    Lord Gwyn trembled at the Dark.
    Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans,
    and the Dark Lord who would one day be born amongst them,
    Lord Gwyn resisted the course of nature.
    By sacrificing himself to link the fire, and commanding his children to shepherd the humans,
    Gwyn has blurred your past, to prevent the birth of the Dark Lord.

    The Age of Dark had actually already begun once, while the pygmy was still alive and still owned the Dark Soul, making him, undeniably, the Dark Lord. Not really sure what happened, but it seems the pygmy eventually disappeared and a new Dark Lord would be born at some point, so Gwyn took this chance to sacrifice himself to revert to the Age of Fire, and made his kids shepherd the humans while blurring your past, so that no Dark Lord would rise to power ever again.

    Or that's my take of it, at least.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:52 am

    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote: There is no mention of anything that connects the two from a lore view point

    From left literally 95% of what we consider lore ambiguous, and they conduct half their storytelling through environment elements (see Iron Tarkus in Anor Londo - that is blatant) and even through gameplay mechanics (see player overloaded with humanity when most saints/bosses can hold at most 10% of what the player can hold, and that's not counting hard and soft versions).

    The similarities and callouts are there, and if you consider them not meaningful, then by principle you should apply that to everything in DS and DkS... and lose about 80% of the lore.


    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:a idea that is accepted by a majority that is may be the closest thing to an answer we can find.

    Fun fact - the Germans did that, for a time. Please don't draw conclusions, what I'm saying is that this statement is fundamentally incorrect... even more so in Dark Souls, where everyone has their own version of the lore.



    Leeroy_Jenkins wrote:half the world, lost…eras'd by the fog..."...
    the unstable world has another Monumental to hold its fabric together....

    This further gives ground for your "hard" cycle theory, btw. In Lordran time is unstable, allowing PvP... and in DS world, the fabric itself is unstable. It's possible, but the intent of it is up in the air...

    I, for example, find that giving this sort of meaning to NG+ kills of a lot of the meaning in Dark Souls. The game is, storywise, an epilogue, and a short one at that. Repeating it a thousand times like this removes almost all attraction the "plot" of the game has.


    Elifia wrote:The Age of Dark had actually already begun once, while the pygmy was still alive and still owned the Dark Soul, making him, undeniably, the Dark Lord. Not really sure what happened, but it seems the pygmy eventually disappeared and a new Dark Lord would be born at some point, so Gwyn took this chance to sacrifice himself to revert to the Age of Fire

    Gonna nitpick here. Nowhere is it said, as far as I'm aware, in concrete fashion that the Dark Lord has all of the Dark Souls... even more if the Dark Soul=Humanity(soft and hard) theory holds to be true.

    My take on this is that the Dark Soul is present in all humans, and also outside them, in hard form(and in rare cases, inside - see Firekeepers). Burning souls, including the Dark Soul fueled fire.

    Thus, it can be inferred that the Age of Fire had already ended - the flame had gone out, but Gwyn burnt his soul to create a false version of it, which Frampt hopes to solidify by burning more souls, and Kaathe hopes to dispel with true Dark.

    And nowhere in the game does the protagonist obtain the Dark Soul - he is simply "chosen" along with a lot of other people. Basically, whatever sticks.

    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:There is a reason dark souls is a called a "Spiritual sequel" instead of "sequel"

    Yes, because Sony owns Demons Souls IP. If FROM tried to officially link DkS and DS, they would either be involved in a protracted legal fiasco (see Evangelion and Terminator) or DkS would wind up to be a PS4 exclusive like DS.
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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Shkar on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:24 am

    It doesn't matter that claiming they are the same universe would lead to legal issues. The fact of the matter is that they specifically said that they aren't, rather than just ignore the issue or be vague.

    As for the "second" Age of Darkness, pretty sure that just refers to the first time they flame began to fade.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Elifia on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:12 am

    δelta wrote:
    Elifia wrote:The Age of Dark had actually already begun once, while the pygmy was still alive and still owned the Dark Soul, making him, undeniably, the Dark Lord. Not really sure what happened, but it seems the pygmy eventually disappeared and a new Dark Lord would be born at some point, so Gwyn took this chance to sacrifice himself to revert to the Age of Fire

    Gonna nitpick here. Nowhere is it said, as far as I'm aware, in concrete fashion that the Dark Lord has all of the Dark Souls... even more if the Dark Soul=Humanity(soft and hard) theory holds to be true.

    My take on this is that the Dark Soul is present in all humans, and also outside them, in hard form(and in rare cases, inside - see Firekeepers). Burning souls, including the Dark Soul fueled fire.

    Thus, it can be inferred that the Age of Fire had already ended - the flame had gone out, but Gwyn burnt his soul to create a false version of it, which Frampt hopes to solidify by burning more souls, and Kaathe hopes to dispel with true Dark.

    And nowhere in the game does the protagonist obtain the Dark Soul - he is simply "chosen" along with a lot of other people. Basically, whatever sticks.

    I'm pretty sure there can only be 1, true, Dark Soul:
    Kaathe wrote:But your progenitor found a fourth, unique soul.
    The Dark Soul.

    See how he calls it unique? And how he refers to it as 'the' Dark Soul, and not 'a' Dark Soul? Humanity may be derived from the Dark Soul, but it is not the Dark Soul.

    Also note this part:
    Kaathe wrote:Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans,
    and the Dark Lord who would one day be born amongst them,
    It says right there that a single person will be born as the Dark Lord.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Jul 05, 2013 11:39 am

    I need some clarifying here. I understand that these games in lore and story run in vague ambiguous matters. But I am looking at an in-game view were despite similarities in game mechanics or environments (though I see few) were I see nothing that can connect DS and DKS in the same universe which they are not. I run by facts. Also Explain why you had to use Germans to counter that we really have to believe by mass majority that theory A is better than theory B though both are interesting takes when it comes to a subject in the game.


    Sorry if this confuses you a bit but at some my writing tends to get a bit confusing from some slight focus issues.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Sat Jul 06, 2013 3:43 pm

    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:I need some clarifying here. I understand that these games in lore and story run in vague  ambiguous matters. But I am looking at an in-game view were despite similarities in game mechanics or environments (though I see few) were I see nothing that can connect DS and DKS in the same universe which they are not. I run by facts. Also Explain why you had to use Germans to counter that we really have to believe by mass majority that theory A is better than theory B though both are interesting takes when it comes to a subject in the game.

    Uh... missed the point. About the German thing, Let's use a less controversy-drawing example.
    Newton's Laws of Motion were developed by a guy over 300 years ago, and has since been summarily disproved by another guy over a century ago. And yet Newton's concepts are still used and held as canon by virtue of simplicity, accuracy be damned.

    Thus, I wanted to say, theories are just that - theories.

    And the confirmation you are looking for if DS and DkS are connected will not come unless FROM can get their hands on the IP again. (DS belongs to Sony)

    And thus all we have are speculation. Honestly I am neutral about DS and DkS sharing the same world, but the similarities are way too many for anyone to ignore. What does this mean? Up in the air, and that's why we are speculating.



    Shkar wrote:As for the "second" Age of Darkness, pretty sure that just refers to the first time they flame began to fade.

    Could you expand on this?


    Elifia wrote:It says right there that a single person will be born as the Dark Lord.

    Hmm... unless FROM banks on the fate angle really hard, I'd say you are correct.

    However this is just aesthetic to my reasoning. The question is, why would anyone care if the Pygmy has the Dark Soul and is called the Dark Lord? If the loop thing is incorrect, then there is no evidence of the pygmy's power, but plenty for the lords, who had mowed over the deities of the Age of Ancients.

    Why, in the face of overwhelming evidence that the Lords were top dog, did most of the primordial serpents (except Frampt... one of them, but he had "lost his sense") and a lot of others bank on the power of Dark?


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:01 pm

    Legally speaking it would be a wise choice to say that Dark Souls and Demon Souls are not the same in any as to allow each game to branch into separate series with no issues to Sony or FROM. And you said what I have been trying to say for a bit but I admit I may have miss wrote my point wrong. As much as I run by facts everything in this game runs with speculations which may or may not become theories depending on how much information is presented. When most of us agree to an idea enough it can be become a well used explanation, but not the 100% true explanation as with these games we really need the developers themselves to say it. But what I like is that we build so much information and a wide rang of thinking about the game's lore. Reason why I like the Archives section.


    Also can you stop using controversies? I knew what you meant by Germans and frankly I got offended by it. And Newtons Laws is a whole different thing. I rather not get into but I will say it the most accepted piece in science's history.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Shkar on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:16 pm

    δelta wrote:
    Shkar wrote:As for the "second" Age of Darkness, pretty sure that just refers to the first time they flame began to fade.

    Could you expand on this?

     The flame appeared, or always was, or what have you; I still say that it existed even before the dragons did, but I don't really care to argue that. The lords find the lord souls, go on a global extermination binge, and fun times are had. The flame starts to fade, the Witch of Izalith's copy gets corrupted, and Gwyn links the flame. Good times are had again. A thousand years after the flame faded the first time, the gods have fled from Anor Londo, the sun has stopped rising, and the undead have started walking again.

    Gwyn linked the flame once because it was fading, and now it is fading again.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Encore on Sat Jul 06, 2013 4:27 pm

    δelta wrote:
    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:I need some clarifying here. I understand that these games in lore and story run in vague  ambiguous matters. But I am looking at an in-game view were despite similarities in game mechanics or environments (though I see few) were I see nothing that can connect DS and DKS in the same universe which they are not. I run by facts. Also Explain why you had to use Germans to counter that we really have to believe by mass majority that theory A is better than theory B though both are interesting takes when it comes to a subject in the game.

    Uh... missed the point. About the German thing, Let's use a less controversy-drawing example.
    Newton's Laws of Motion were developed by a guy over 300 years ago, and has since been summarily disproved by another guy over a century ago. And yet Newton's concepts are still used and held as canon by virtue of simplicity, accuracy be damned.
    First off, in the context of science, a theory is as great as something can be.

    Also, Newton's laws are still used because they are accurate enough to use when propelling spacecraft and calculating orbit and whatnot, it is not disproved, just expanded upon. It showed that it was accurate to a high degree. Otherwise they would not use it to calculate for example the launch of spacecraft.

    "Newton was fully aware of the conceptual difficulties of  his action-at-a-distance theory of gravity. In a letter to Richard Bentley Newton wrote:



      "It is inconceivable, that inanimate brute matter should, without the mediation of something else, which is not material, operate upon, and affect other matter without mutual contact; as it must do, if gravitation, ...., be essential and inherent in it. And this is one reason, why I desired you would not ascribe innate gravity to me. That gravity should be innate, inherent, and essential to matter, so that one body may act upon another, at a distance through vacuum, without the mediation of anything else, by and through their action and force may be conveyed from one to another, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it."


    So, clearly, Newton believed that something had to convey gravitational influence from one body to another. When later it became clear that influences travel at finite speeds it was reasonable to suppose this true of gravity also. But Newton's law of gravity did not incorporate the finite travel time of gravitational influences. If  right now the sun were to be destroyed by a passing black hole we would not feel the gravitational effects until about 8 minutes had elapsed. Because Newton's law did not include such retardation effects, and permitted violations of special relativity, it was clear that  Newton's law had to be an approximation to the correct law of gravity."

    Newton merely had a very accurate approximation.

    Second, you've both clearly shown that you are not neutral on the matter of a shared world, and it is, as you said, up to FROM, but it might not be confirmation, instead being a matter of saying that they're not connected.

    Shkar wrote:As for the "second" Age of Darkness, pretty sure that just refers to the first time they flame began to fade.
    δelta wrote:
    Could you expand on this?

    S/he probably meant before Gwyn went to the Kiln to link it the first time.

    Elifia wrote:It says right there that a single person will be born as the Dark Lord.
    δelta wrote:
    Hmm... unless FROM banks on the fate angle really hard, I'd say you are correct.

    However this is just aesthetic to my reasoning. The question is, why would anyone care if the Pygmy has the Dark Soul and is called the Dark Lord? If the loop thing is incorrect, then there is no evidence of the pygmy's power, but plenty for the lords, who had mowed over the deities of the Age of Ancients.

    Why, in the face of overwhelming evidence that the Lords were top dog, did most of the primordial serpents (except Frampt... one of them, but he had "lost his sense") and a lot of others bank on the power of Dark?

    It is directly stated that the pygmy has the dark soul, and people care because humanity is the remains of the dark soul, and humanity is what defines mankind in dark souls. There is no evidence of his powers, because he had no plans to act, he left that, and the remains of the dark souls, to his descendant.

    "Hmm… You are astonishing.
    The truth I shall share without sentiment.
    After the advent of fire, the ancient lords found the three souls.
    But your progenitor found a fourth, unique soul.
    The Dark Soul.
    Your ancestor claimed the Dark Soul and waited for Fire to subside.
    And soon, the flames did fade, and only Dark remained.
    Thus began the age of men, the Age of Dark.
    However…
    Lord Gwyn trembled at the Dark.
    Clinging to his Age of Fire, and in dire fear of humans,
    and the Dark Lord who would one day be born amongst them,
    Lord Gwyn resisted the course of nature.
    By sacrificing himself to link the fire, and commanding his children to shepherd the humans,
    Gwyn has blurred your past, to prevent the birth of the Dark Lord.
    I am the primordial serpent.
    I seek to right the wrongs of the past to discover our true Lord.
    But the other serpent, Frampt, lost his sense, and befriended Lord Gwyn.
    Undead warrior, we stand at the crossroad.
    Only I know the truth about your fate.
    You must destroy the fading Lord Gwyn, who has coddled Fire and resisted nature,
    and become the Fourth Lord, so that you may usher in the Age of Dark!
    "

    The idea with the dark lord is that an undead will eventually conquer the gods, and don the title, but it may be any undead. It was inevitable that it would eventually happen, and it does.

    As for why they bowed for the dark? (This is my speculation) We know that the dark is growing stronger as the fire fades, and perhaps they wished to secure a place of power in the coming future.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:41 am

    Shkar wrote:
    δelta wrote:
    Shkar wrote:As for the "second" Age of Darkness, pretty sure that just refers to the first time they flame began to fade.

    Could you expand on this?
    ....Witch of Izalith's copy gets corrupted,the sun has stopped rising, and the undead have started walking again....

    Gwyn linked the flame once because it was fading, and now it is fading again.

    Couple of headscratchers :

    The Witch's Lord Soul got corrupted? Far as I remember, she used the power of her soul to ignite the Flame of Chaos, which went wild and assimilated her and most of her daughters - nowhere is it said that the Lord Soul itself is corrupted... in fact, you even receive it intact after killing BoC.

    The sun has stopped rising.... about that, something I wanted to ask. The Duke's Archives in Anor Londo never turn dark - they stay light regardless of Anor Londo's state of illusion. Why is that? My personal theory is that the darkness and the light both are illusions, but I really need more info on this.

    Lastly... Gwyn linking the Fire stops the undead from being born?



    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:Newton merely had a very accurate approximation.

    My point is, Newton had a theory. Einstein provided us a better one. We still use Newton's laws because they are simpler, and the inaccuracies are not much of a concern in daily life.

    And concerning spaceship trajectories - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orbital_mechanics
    Wikipedia wrote:General relativity is a more exact theory than Newton's laws for calculating orbits, and is sometimes necessary for greater accuracy or in high-gravity situations (such as orbits close to the Sun).


    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:We know that the dark is growing stronger as the fire fades



    The fire did not start fading for, what, 2000 years? Loyalty that deep from primordial serpents (you know, insidious plots etc)... basically I think something/one had to command such loyalty, and give them reason to support the dark, especially if the world did not know what true dark would be like. Thus my Age of Fire-Dark loop theory.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Encore on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:48 am

    You just reinforced what I said about Newton's laws...

    I think I am done here.

    No more.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:55 am

    The witch tried to create a copy of the flame as research like Seath does. However she made a mistake and accidentally created the BoC and the demons which her family but one became. It was a accident which cost her everything. we don't get the witches lord soul but the BoC which was made with her lord soul. Being powerful enough to fuel the lorvessel

    The sun in Anor londo is in fact fake. An illusion by Gwyndolin to create his sister who gives the lordvessel. How it effects everywhere else I think goes with Lordran's unstable time paradoxs. Where night is in one place but not somewhere else.


    It is implied and told by people that when the fire is linked the undead curse is removed for a period of time. During this time mortals don't live in fear and can die without being cursed. When the curse is active, anyone who dies becomes undead. A form of birth if you will.


    Also we don't know when the fire was fading. Gwyn lit it twice giving gods the power over us. Though from the dark lord ending it can be seen that the snakes want the gods to fall to restore balance to the world. Pgmy had the dark soul the soul that could make humanity and crush the age the gods want. When the fire dies darkness rules and for me the serpent want dark to counter the light which grew powerful
    .


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Encore on Mon Jul 08, 2013 4:33 am

    δelta wrote:
    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:We know that the dark is growing stronger as the fire fades

    The fire did not start fading for, what, 2000 years? Loyalty that deep from primordial serpents (you know, insidious plots etc)... basically I think something/one had to command such loyalty, and give them reason to support the dark, especially if the world did not know what true dark would be like. Thus my Age of Fire-Dark loop theory.
    [/quote]

    If someone lived forever, do you think they would be inpatients... They probably would be able to sleep until next time, which Frampt implies, if I remember correctly.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Mon Jul 08, 2013 7:56 am

    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:

    If someone lived forever, do you think they would be inpatients... They probably would be able to sleep until next time, which Frampt implies, if I remember correctly.

    The issue is not impatience. In fact, them living forever increases it. Like, if you're making a bet, you back the winning horse. You don't choose otherwise unless you set up the game from the beginning. If all the serpents saw were Age of Fire, and Ancients, and they saw the power of Lords... and nothing of the Pygmy or the Dark, why back the Dark Lord?

    Unless they had proof that the Dark would one day rule the world, with the Dark Lord at its head. Now this kind of proof is kind of hard to find, considering the pygmy vanishes, but easily explainiable if loops exist in Ancients-Fire-Dark fashion.

    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:You just reinforced what I said about Newton's laws...

    Because we are in agreement on this, I believe. Or simply splitting hairs.




    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:
    The witch tried to create a copy of the flame as research like Seath does. However she made a mistake and accidentally created the BoC and the demons which her family but one became. It was a accident which cost her everything. we don't get the witches lord soul but the BoC which was made with her lord soul. Being powerful enough to fuel the lorvessel

    Damn, missed that one. But from the ingame description,


    wikispaces wrote:Soul of the Bed of Chaos and the mother
    of all demons. This Lord Soul was found
    at the dawn of the Age of Fire.

    It sounds like the Lord Soul simply transferred over.

    Oh, and you missed something - 2 of her daughters managed to not turn into Chaos demons, not 1. The second can be found guarding BoC.


    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote: Though from the dark lord ending it can be seen that the snakes want the gods to fall to restore balance to the world. Pgmy had the dark soul the soul that could make humanity and crush the age the gods want. When the fire dies darkness rules and for me the serpent want dark to counter the light which grew powerful.

    So you're saying... they maintain balance between Light and Dark? Can you elaborate?


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Encore on Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:11 am

    The fire had began to fade once, and they saw the rise of the dark and humanity until Gwyn journey to the kiln and kindled it. Perhaps they saw that and began to plan out of that knowledge. Nothing has said that they wished for darkness from the very beginning, but nothing tells us that it is a loop.

    Fire begins to die, serpents notice understand that it will happen again, plans for that, the current events.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Mon Jul 08, 2013 9:55 am

    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:The fire had began to fade once, and they saw the rise of the dark and humanity until Gwyn journey to the kiln and kindled it. Perhaps they saw that and began to plan out of that knowledge. Nothing has said that they wished for darkness from the very beginning, but nothing tells us that it is a loop.

    Fire begins to die, serpents notice understand that it will happen again, plans for that, the current events.

     4 kings disproves that theory. They talked to Kaathe way before the First Flame went out, and Kaathe gave them Lifedrain, "the legendary power of the Dark Lord" ie he was already scouting potential candidates back then. And don' forget the "toothy serpent" of Oolacile that tempted them into opening Manus' tomb.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Encore on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:04 am

    There are bonfires in Oolacile, giving direct evidence that the events there happens after the first linking of the flame.

    Edit: I realized after that I might not be so sure, so please take this with a pinch of salt. Otherwise, I still believe there are other evidence.


    Last edited by Teh Kitten´s Cat on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:09 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by PonageWalrus on Mon Jul 08, 2013 10:05 am

     < I guess you can say this is a GRAVE situation! get it?
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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Jul 08, 2013 11:59 am

    δelta wrote:
    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote: Though from the dark lord ending it can be seen that the snakes want the gods to fall to restore balance to the world. Pgmy had the dark soul the soul that could make humanity and crush the age the gods want. When the fire dies darkness rules and for me the serpent want dark to counter the light which grew powerful.

    So you're saying... they maintain balance between Light and Dark? Can you elaborate?
    I may have some errors here so correct me if I am wrong.

    Supposedly Time in the game is supposed to be phases. The very beginning or Ancients, the Age of fire, and a dark age or one where the fire is out. The age of fire was the gods age and the transition from ancients. Here the gods ruled over and may have built civilization in their image like any ruler would. However if we take in what Kaathe says and the connections humanity seems to have with the dark soul it was logical to think the next age was one of man, where the gods step down and mortals can rule themselves. However Gwyn and the gods of Anor Londo seemed to like their age of fire and wanted it to last and keep their power. As such Gwyn linked the flame again which was not supposed to happen and extended the age of fire. However if we imply the manipulation aspect in the game it seems like after Gwyn linked the flame again the idea that if the flame died, and age of darkness would be evil and all would suffer. A smokescreen to hide what the dark age is really like rather than an age of lost hope and suffering. This would cause the serpents to think of a way to let the flame die and restore balance with humans in control in the next age. All but Frampt as he allied himself to the gods and tries to have us believe in the gods' lie of the age of darkness.

    That is my theory of it.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:05 pm

    PonageWalrus wrote: < I guess you can say this is a GRAVE situation! get it?

     Nah, mate. It flew over my head with a whooshing sound silly


    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:The age of fire was the gods age and the transition from ancients.

    Not necessarily. Look at BoC, the bed got the lord soul from the Witch, and other non-god beings got shards of the lord souls. I think the Age of Fire=Fire (First Flame?) burns. As to the transition from the ancients, the only thing that changed (not added, changed) was the wiping out of many dragons, and even that was unsuccessful. The world of the ancients (Ash Lake) is always there - it has't changed since the coming of fire.


    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:the next age was one of man, where the gods step down and mortals can rule themselves.

    Who in their right mind would do that? The gods see mortals in need of "sheperding". For them, it's like stepping down to let a goat rule in your place.


    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote: Gwyn and the gods of Anor Londo seemed to like their age of fire and wanted it to last and keep their power. As such Gwyn linked the flame again which was not supposed to happen and extended the age of fire. However if we imply the manipulation aspect in the game it seems like after Gwyn linked the flame again the idea that if the flame died, and age of darkness would be evil and all would suffer. 

    On this I agree, that Gwyn didn't do this solely for power. For example, two points -

    First, see how the very concept of sin, be it against your fellow man, or anyone else, is tied to prayer, and the Gods, and indiscriminate acts without honor, while very human, is tied to the Dark (Darkwraiths anyone?)

    Secondly, listen to Gwynevere (her illusion I mean) in Anor Londo.


    Gwynevere, Princess of Sunlight wrote:Indeed we had felt the warmth of Fire, its radiance, and the life it sustaineth.
    Without Fire, all shall be a frigid and frightful Dark.

    She is literally equating life to Fire, and Dark to death. If her mentality can be used as a guideline, the gods believe they are best for the world etc and all that goes with such mentality. And strangely, a lot of the evidence supports them.


    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote:gods' lie of the age of darkness.

    Is it really a lie to their eyes? More like - "in the name of the greater good..."



    Soris Ice Goldwing wrote: This would cause the serpents to think of a way to let the flame die and restore balance with humans in control in the next age.

    You're setting them up to be moral guardians of sorts. Why would they care about balance? They're primordial, and as the game shows, manipulative as ***. Now, standard reason for manipulation is power. They behave in a 180 degrees violation of what one would expect... not chasing after immediate power, willing to wait in the dark, utilizing lifedrain, recruiting for Dark Lords, etc -  they are heavily dark-based.

    So one would think they have vested interest in Dark being prevalent (unless they really care about balance, in which case you are correct) , but when Dark has not existed until the Flame went out for the first time, what basis do they base their reasoning on? And how do they know the Gods are not correct about the Age of Dark? They never saw it(if I'm wrong about loop).



    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:There are bonfires in Oolacile, giving direct evidence that the events there happens after the first linking of the flame.

    That means nothing, there's one in the Abyss itself ie gaming convenience. Come on man, give me something more solid.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Jul 08, 2013 1:30 pm

    Not everyone become gods but can be seen as that. You can call the Quelaan the mother or goddess of pyromancy but she was never a god. Her mother found her lord soul while the 4 kings were given a small fraction of a lord soul as a gift from Gwyn before the abyss corrupted them.


    Also about what cat says is relevant. The events of the DLC occurred after the flame was first lit abut before it was dying again as some evidence thinks that the undead did not return yet as we went into the past. Why there is a bonfire in the Abyss is like how after a bonfire forms after every lordvessel soul dies. I say it can be the leftovers of their power turned into a bonfire.


    And you do see why the gods made the age of fire last longer. They think they are right and want to keep power. But they think are right. Think of it like this: You are the sole ruler of a nation. Everything you say is law and no one can say otherwise. But what happens when your people want a republic or democracy were the people can have a voice? You would refuse and do what it takes to stay in power. This is what the lie the gods say about letting the flame die so that whoever kills Gwyn can keep the age going. Why do the serpents like Kaathe want man to take over is beyond me. But if you want real life comparisons you can the dark age leads to our real lives. It really comes down to who you want to place your trust in.


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