Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:00 pm

    Not really insubordination, he needed someone to guard the castle, and being war of attrition I doubt he'd send reinforcements as he himself eventually retreated. Also the fact they disappear along with the sun, Gwynevere and other sentinels shows they too are illusions.

    I don't believe Solaire is Gwyns Firstforn either. I believe he is the true successor to Gwyn while you are meant to be the Dark Lord. Oscar doesn't inherently follow prophecy, his is self-fulfilled, (he goes to the Asylum just to say he escaped from it..) Solaire dreams to be grossly incandescent, along with his strength and nobility he is the perfect candidate to relight the flame and become it's fuel. However firstborn would have a successor mentality anyway, he wanted to be Lord of Sunlight in his own right though, indeed. His foolishness did lead to a losing of the annuls and Solaire describes himself as foolish. Maybe it was his quest for his own Sun that deterred him from whatever duty he was given. Guess it could go either way, Solaire sounds more like a pseudonym to me though. At any rate Gwyn must've had many consorts like Zeus, I believe his children were of different mothers. Maybe Firstborn and Gwynevere same but Gwyndolin definitely has some funk in his genes.

    Also Gwyn has an uncanny resemblance to the blacksmiths.raised brow


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:58 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:Not really insubordination, he needed someone to guard the castle, and being war of attrition I doubt he'd send reinforcements as he himself eventually retreated. Also the fact they disappear along with the sun, Gwynevere and other sentinels shows they too are illusions.
    Actually, the Silver Knights do not disappear when the illusion is broken, suggesting that they are real. Besides, everyone dissipates in Dark Souls except humans. I also modded the game a bit, and Ornstein and Smough do not disappear either.

    And I'd say that Gwyn would call some of the remaining troops in to support him, especially if the conflict is at a stalemate - or even his captain of the guard Ornstein. But no, Ornstein did not go to the Izalith expedition cause not a scratch on his armor.

    So I'm posing dissension and even outright power struggle (which Gwyn didn't have time for, because he had to save the day) in Anor Londo.


    Undiscovery wrote:I don't believe Solaire is Gwyns Firstforn either. I believe he is the true successor to Gwyn while you are meant to be the Dark Lord. Oscar doesn't inherently follow prophecy, his is self-fulfilled, (he goes to the Asylum just to say he escaped from it..) Solaire dreams to be grossly incandescent, along with his strength and nobility he is the perfect candidate to relight the flame and become it's fuel. However firstborn would have a successor mentality anyway, he wanted to be Lord of Sunlight in his own right though, indeed. His foolishness did lead to a losing of the annuls and Solaire describes himself as foolish. Maybe it was his quest for his own Sun that deterred him from whatever duty he was given. Guess it could go either way, Solaire sounds more like a pseudonym to me though. At any rate Gwynmust've had many consorts like Zeus, I believe his children were of different mothers. Maybe Firstborn and Gwynevere same but Gwyndolin definitely has some funk in his genes.
    Ehh, that's kind of less likely. Search an organization and you will come up with at least one fanatic. And I honestly do not want to think about Gwyn's sex life, cause I think FROM's canon there could put every otaku's imagination to shame happy .


    Undiscovery wrote:Also Gwyn has an uncanny resemblance to the blacksmiths.
    You didn't know? Beards are in now! devil 

    http://www.gameranx.com/img/13-Jun/witcher-3.jpg

    But on a serious note, you're thinking of Andre. How does a skeleton or a Mage of Vinhiem, or a giant whose species were pseudo-slaves(hyperbole, but it's there) to the Gods look like Gwyn?


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:05 pm

    Ok so I'm gonna leap in on the whole power struggle theory. We know the flames were fading as the Witch was trying to recreate the first flame. This presumably left Gwyn weak and once she failed he then had to fight off the chaos demons. It would seem Gwyn lost the war yet no help was sent. It would seem soon after Gwyn loses the war (perhaps immediately after?) he goes to link the flame before it is completely extinguished. 

    We also know that the first born left the Sunlight Blade on his fathers tomb meaning he was a god during the war. As the god of war it seems likely he was either involved in the war or trying to send reinforcements to his father. I've never bought the idea that the first born of the most powerful God in Anor Londo and God of war himself was stripped of all his titles  and power because he lost historical records. I've always got a strong Thor/Loki vibe from the first born and Gwyndolin. I think the firstborn wanted to aid his father in the kiln but the other gods were afraid. Artorias, Gough and Ciaran had potentially already fallen to the Abyss as Gough refers to "mighty Anor Londo" suggesting the Gods were still there and strong. Ornstein was sworn into the Princess Guard Covenant and therefore had to obey Gwynevere. Havel has already attempted to kill Gwyn before resulting in his death/banishment along with the creation of the painted world and the banishment of Velka. The Gods fearing either the loss of their entire army in the first borns attempt to get into the kiln by using the lordvessel which would cost them what little power they have left decide to flee. The first born however feels a burning desire to help his father declares he is now incharge and that the gods must help his father. Gwyndolin jealous of the first born provides an excuse for them to remove his deific status so that they may flee. Gwyndolin is finally given some respect by the Gods and left in charge of Anor Londo. He may even believe he is honoring his fathers last wish by ensuring the kiln is protected and secured. 

    The first born is either driven slightly mad by this experience and is locked in an asylum until he can escape and finish his quest (with a little help) or remembers everything but accepts his fate and decides to focus on forging weapons however he may know of another way into the kiln. 

    Ok this theory has some holes in it but it isn't complete nonsense like some of the others x)


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:18 pm

    I mean Andrei, yes, as well as the other 3 petrified-praying-blacksmiths who look like him in Ariamis, Darkroot, and Tomb holding the embers. I didn't mean the 'other' blacksmiths.

    I still don't see it as a power struggle, I don't see much to suggest it. It says Gwyn had two groups of knights, the black knights who went with him to fight the demons and relight the flame and the silver knights who stayed behind to defend the goddess. It sounds more like Army Infantry to the National Guard. I don't think Gwyn would send more knights to a losing battle. I'll admit your Ornstein argument is solid though, as captain it never looks like he did anything, hell Artorias was even sent to the Abyss before Ornstein. Guess he's in the Princess Guard?

    While on the knights, I wager if Smough became a Knight he'd get the Bear Ring which does extra damage to poise. (wishful thinking)silly

    And I like your Firstborn theory CakeThief, it says he still keeps a watchful eye on his warriors, though.

    Although it could be his body in the tomb with Firstborn Ring, maybe he decided to perish there after leaving the SLB to pay respect.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:41 am

    CakeThiefPro wrote:Ok so I'm gonna leap in on the whole power struggle theory. We know the flames were fading as the Witch was trying to recreate the first flame. This presumably left Gwyn weak and once she failed he then had to fight off the chaos demons. It would seem Gwyn lost the war yet no help was sent. It would seem soon after Gwyn loses the war (perhaps immediately after?) he goes to link the flame before it is completely extinguished. 
    Okay.... .... ....

    I'm gonna answer this point by point.
    The first line needs to be fixed to "we know the flames would inevitably fade, and the witch was trying to recreate the first flame for personal gain". Quellana said that her mother was straight up misguided, and the rest is implied strongly.

    About Gwyn becoming weaker... why would that happen? He has his own soul, intact, his lord soul is as split as it can be, and has not been yet linked to the flame.

    Imo the recreation of the First Flame sounds more of a personal project to me, so that when the failure happened, the chaos demons would have come out of nowhere... or so it appeared in Anor Londo.

    Yeah, Gwyn lost the war. I'm not sure about no help sent part... gotta be some help sent, he is Lord after all, but basically just a token gesture instead of the battalion that would have made a difference. Also, I think Gwyn went to the Kiln to die... his actions weren't to wage war (against what lol) but self-sacrifice.

    CakeThiefPro wrote:
    We also know that the first born left the Sunlight Blade on his fathers tomb meaning he was a god during the war. As the god of war it seems likely he was either involved in the war or trying to send reinforcements to his father. I've never bought the idea that the first born of the most powerful God in Anor Londo and God of war himself was stripped of all his titles  and power because he lost historical records. I've always got a strong Thor/Loki vibe from the first born and Gwyndolin. I think the firstborn wanted to aid his father in the kiln but the other gods were afraid.
    The first part I disagree with. The Sunlight Blade does not automatically mean that the Firstborn was a god during Izalith invasion. He could have been kicked out before, and left the sunlight blade when he heard Gwyn "died" in the Kiln. The middle part I agree with, especially since Odin is another Zeus except older. The last part is pure speculah (about the firstbown wanting to help his father) but it does tie in to all the Solaire speculah, and what Undiscovery has been saying about Solaire being the "light-side" successor of Gwyn. (and I still laugh at the irony of Solaire helping kill Gwyn)

    Undiscovery wrote:I'll admit your Ornstein argument is solid though, as captain it never looks like he did anything, hell Artorias was even sent to the Abyss before Ornstein. Guess he's in the Princess Guard?


    CakeThiefPro wrote:Ornstein was sworn into the Princess Guard Covenant and therefore had to obey Gwynevere. 
    Where did you get this from? Look at the miracles you obtain from the covenant - they are support based... not something Ornstein would use, imo. And I never saw ANY silver knight use Soothing Sunlight.


    CakeThiefPro wrote:The Gods fearing either the loss of their entire army in the first borns attempt to get into the kiln by using the lordvessel which would cost them what little power they have left decide to flee. The first born however feels a burning desire to help his father declares he is now incharge and that the gods must help his father. Gwyndolin jealous of the first born provides an excuse for them to remove his deific status so that they may flee. Gwyndolin is finally given some respect by the Gods and left in charge of Anor Londo. He may even believe he is honoring his fathers last wish by ensuring the kiln is protected and secured. 
    Gonna quote the Intro - "Gwyn, the lord of Sunlight, and his faithful Knights..." just for irony.

    All the signs say that the God of War was stricken from the annals while Gwyn was still around, because nobody has the authority to do so other than him. Besides, it's basically the father disowning the son - now where have I heard that before?/sarcasm

    Once the War God was cast down, he would not have the authority you assign him to actually command the Knights. Also, the Kiln was sealed by the Lordvessel, and nobody could get in unless they were actually the chosen undead.

    LOL @ Gwyndolin given respect by the Gods - he is guarding an honorary tomb in an empty city in a realm lost to the undead which the Gods ran from like rats from a sinking ship. Only respect I can see anyone giving him is of the mocking kind - him and Velka are both bordering on insanity.


    CakeThiefPro wrote:The first born is either driven slightly mad by this experience and is locked in an asylum until he can escape and finish his quest (with a little help) or remembers everything but accepts his fate and decides to focus on forging weapons however he may know of another way into the kiln. 
    Dude, probably they look like the blacksmith god, not Gwyn.



    Undiscovery wrote:It says Gwyn had two groups of knights, the black knights who went with him to fight the demons and relight the flame and the silver knights who stayed behind to defend the goddess. It sounds more like Army Infantry to the National Guard. I don't think Gwyn would send more knights to a losing battle.
    The Black Knights WERE silver knights - one group before Izalith, which warped the ones who did go with Gwyn. Then they became 2 distinct groups, and imo one bound to Gwyn by war and suffering, and the other who had no idea what transpired.

    Also, imo, Gwyn would send more knights in a stalemate, since the Izalith war dragged on for quite a while, I'd assume it was that (that I get from Izalith not spreading into Blighttown... and the irony of defending one **** from another ****)


    Undiscovery wrote:Although it could be his body in the tomb with Firstborn Ring, maybe he decided to perish there after leaving the SLB to pay respect.
    The thought occured to me, yeah. I'm not really sure what to think on this one.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:46 am

    About Gwyn becoming weaker... why would that happen? He has his own soul, intact, his lord soul is as split as it can be, and has not been yet linked to the flame.


    Well I don't know why the gods would fear the flame fading if it wasn't linked to their power. As you say he's already split his soul up and used a lot of it's power defeating the dragons and creating Anor Londo etc. As the dark grows stronger (I think the first outbrake of undead happened at this time) and the flames faded his influence would have shrunk hence Gwyndolin wanting you to link the flames and extend the age of fire so that he might be able to stop hiding and rule man. 

    Also, I think Gwyn went to the Kiln to die...


    Yes it's unclear what Gwyn was hoping to accomplish but from what I can tell he split his soul up to protect his children and then tried to prolong the age of fire by sacraficing himself. I imagine he was quite desperate after the Abyss in Oolacile, loss of the Witch and general weakening state of Anor Londo combined with the appearance of undead and decided to do whatever he could to delay it and give the gods a chance to escape. 

    All the signs say that the God of War was stricken from the annals while Gwyn was still around, because nobody has the authority to do so other than him. Besides, it's basically the father disowning the son - now where have I heard that before?/sarcasm


    Ok firstly what signs show Gwyn was still around? All I've found is that the firstborn was leaving Anor Londo after Gwyn had his tomb made (I doubt he was given lots of time to leave either just a goodbye and gtfo). To me this implies Gwyn was considered dead by the rest of the gods (since I don't think they could get into the kiln to see what happened to him.) The rest of the gods knew the flames would fade again and the abyss or undead would eventually overrun them if given the chance. They decide to flee but the firstborn will not due to his desire to help people (since that's what his covenant is based around I assume he inspired it). He wants to stay and defend Anor Londo or attack the chaos demons or punish Seath for his experiments or something. Something the gods don't like and with Gwyn out of the picture they can easily stage a coupe and remove him. He should have had supreme authority after Gwyn left but that doesn't mean he really had it. Assuming Gwyndolin had taken over from Velka by this point it seems likely to me he just had to find an excuse to say the firstborn has committed a great sin and punish him for it. I really don't buy Gwyn casting aside his first born because he lost some historical records. 

    Where did you get this from? Look at the miracles you obtain from the covenant - they are support based... not something Ornstein would use, imo. And I never saw ANY silver knight use Soothing Sunlight.


    Ornstein and the Silver Knights are never seen using any miracles at all. If you get the Princess Guard covenant theme however you see Ornstein going in to check on Gwynevere. It's speculation since they are only guarding a fake Gwynevere so he could be serving Gwyndolin instead and may know of his plans. Not sure. 

    Dude, probably they look like the blacksmith god, not Gwyn.


    Andre definately looks a bit like Gwyn considering his grey fuzzy hair and his ability to beat the **** out of you with just his fists. I always assumed the blacksmite god looked like a complete titanite demon before his head was caved in by Smough or something but again pure speculation.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:27 am

    CakeThiefPro wrote:Well I don't know why the gods would fear the flame fading if it wasn't linked to their power. As you say he's already split his soul up and used a lot of it's power defeating the dragons and creating Anor Londo etc. As the dark grows stronger (I think the first outbrake of undead happened at this time) and the flames faded his influence would have shrunk hence Gwyndolin wanting you to link the flames and extend the age of fire so that he might be able to stop hiding and rule man. 
    Symbolism? Gwyndolin still has plenty of power even though the first flame is down no almost nothing. Also, the God's powers are linked to natural elements, not the Fire - Gwyndolin=Moon, Gwynevere=Sun etc.

    Actually, if the chosen undead chooses to link the fire, Gwyndolin runs away from Anor Londo, to the east, where Flann and his sister is.


    CakeThiefPro wrote:Ornstein and the Silver Knights are never seen using any miracles at all. If you get the Princess Guard covenant theme however you see Ornstein going in to check on Gwynevere. It's speculation since they are only guarding a fake Gwynevere so he could be serving Gwyndolin instead and may know of his plans. Not sure. 
    No, Silver Knights do use miracles, though the only one I've seen up to now is Force. I kind of missed the Ornstein checking in part because I never joined the Princess' Guard for an extended period of time, but that can be easily attributed to him being captain of the guard. Also, I almost forgot, Ornstein uses plenty of soul-fueled magic he got from crushing Smough and pwning his soul.


    CakeThiefPro wrote:Ok firstly what signs show Gwyn was still around? All I've found is that the firstborn was leaving Anor Londo after Gwyn had his tomb made (I doubt he was given lots of time to leave either just a goodbye and gtfo). To me this implies Gwyn was considered dead by the rest of the gods (since I don't think they could get into the kiln to see what happened to him.) The rest of the gods knew the flames would fade again and the abyss or undead would eventually overrun them if given the chance. They decide to flee but the firstborn will not due to his desire to help people (since that's what his covenant is based around I assume he inspired it). He wants to stay and defend Anor Londo or attack the chaos demons or punish Seath for his experiments or something. Something the gods don't like and with Gwyn out of the picture they can easily stage a coupe and remove him. He should have had supreme authority after Gwyn left but that doesn't mean he really had it. Assuming Gwyndolin had taken over from Velka by this point it seems likely to me he just had to find an excuse to say the firstborn has committed a great sin and punish him for it. I really don't buy Gwyn casting aside his first born because he lost some historical records. 
    Where do you get the historical records thing? The war god was removed from godly status because he dishonored Gwyn and was "frivolous", I believe.

    The firstborn returned to the tomb after it was set up, and left the sunlight blade miracle on it as a farewell. See, plausible happy .Demoted does not mean outcast (well it does, but not to the point of "you are denied entry to your father's funeral")

    Again, only Gwyn has the authority to completely strike his son's name from the annals. If the gods did stage a coup against the firstborn as you pose, they would defeat him of course, but they would not be able to generate a complete wipeout, especially since the god is tied in to the sunlight covenant, whose ultimate authority is Gwyn.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:20 am

    I was saying Orns was with the Princess Guard as a joke more or less haha. And the ring states the Firstborn lost the annals/historical records as his crime. "Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war, but his foolishness led to a loss of the annals, and rescinding of his deific status. Today, even his name is not known."


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:38 am

    Undiscovery wrote:I was saying Orns was with the Princess Guard as a joke more or less haha. And the ring states the Firstborn lost the annals/historical records as his crime. "Lord Gwyn's firstborn was a god of war, but his foolishness led to a loss of the annals, and rescinding of his deific status. Today, even his name is not known."
    And I was imagining Pikachu in skirts... nauseating lol

    I read the loss of the annals thing as - his actions were considered so out of line by the gods that he was stricken from the records, which included the annals (i.e. official record of the gods' reign). It's really weird to think Gwyn disowned his firstborn because he misplaced some papers big grin ... I misplaced my keys a couple of days ago, so I had to spend 6+ hours gaming at a friend's house. By the standards you just mentioned, I should be flogged and sold into indentured servitude.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 14, 2013 10:54 am

    Gwyn's standards not mine. tongue  Haha really though, they were records of the Gods, it may be pretty important, I imagine they held things like Gwyns rise to power and the like. I can't seem to remember or find where I read it in game but it was to make an example of him or something, he striped him from the very annals he lost. Reflection for punishment. He seems more mad at his sons foolishness itself than the records he lost because of it. So we really don't know what he did exactly, just that he did something stupid and lost the records as a result.

    Anyways that's what CakeThief was trying to say by "I don't think he was disowned for losing some records." We clearly all agree, but as before I think it's more about what he did to lose them.

     And yes I am removing you from the records for losing your keys, tsk tsk, you should really know better by now. not talking


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:19 am

    gah double post ignore plz


    Last edited by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : double post)


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:25 am

    Undiscovery wrote:Gwyn's standards not mine. tongue  Haha really though, they were records of the Gods, it may be pretty important, I imagine they held things like Gwyns rise to power and the like. I can't seem to remember or find where I read it in game but it was to make an example of him or something, he striped him from the very annals he lost. Reflection for punishment. He seems more mad at his sons foolishness itself than the records he lost because of it. So we really don't know what he did exactly, just that he did something stupid and lost the records as a result.

    Anyways that's what CakeThief was trying to say by "I don't think he was disowned for losing some records." We clearly all agree, but as before I think it's more about what he did to lose them.
    Too extreme especially for his firstborn, who fathers usually see as the torchbearer, blah blah carry on their legacy, rule in their stead... what matter of extremism did the god of war adhere to, to make Gwyn react in such a way? The only one I can come up with that makes Gwyn's reaction make sense is the creations of the Dark Soul - namely humans.

    Basically what I speculate is that the guy was a sympathizer, which ties in with his theme - if he loved war and glory, he'd like humans - and he took his sympathies to such heretical levels that Gwyn disowned him and struck him from the annals.

    The only significant hurdle against speculah like this is that FROM used the words "of the annals" instead of "from" or "to". They're working too hard to develop ambiguity there sad (If what FROM meant is actually he lost the annals + Gwyn is a tool, and he died right before Darkmoon Tomb/he is Solaire, I will laugh my *** off.)

    One more thing I'd like to pose is the apparent lack of importance of Gwyn's tomb to the Silver Knights - it's named DARKMOON tomb, is at the base of the level, nobody guarding it except Gwyndolin. Granted it is honorary, but all of Gwyn's children treated it with importance... except the Silver Knights. Still think this is indicative of factions in the Knights, even though they are all apparently just masses of souls now (oh wait that's the black knights)


    Undiscovery wrote: And yes I am removing you from the records for losing your keys, tsk tsk, you should really know better by now. 
    Give me a break man crying  I lose **** all the time. Last week a cousin pissed me off so I hid her toy in a closet. God knows where it is now... she hasn't shut up either.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:06 pm

    Nice speclah about Firstborn being a sympathizer I could see that.

    You think the remaining knights follow Orns or Gwyndolin? Because the tomb is technically empty, Gwyn's at the Kiln. So Gwyndolins obbsession with justice and due-respect might explain why only he's there protecting it. The others don't see a use in protecting an empty-symbolic-tomb, but instead a use in glorifying the illusion. No one revered Gwyndolin like his siblings, he may be giving orders through her illusion the way he misdirects the Chosen. May be he wants to be alone in the tomb. He is reclusive and if he did have daddy-issues it would explain. Unmasking the illusion being tantamount to blasphemy, it seems they all believed in the purpose of the Illusion. More so than I see them caring for an empty tomb. The tomb isn't going to prolong the age of fire, what they're concerned with, but the illusion will avail it.

    Also rereading I don't think the body in the tomb is the firstborns, as he still closely watches over his warriors, I don't believe he's perished. I follow CakeThief's statement, Gwyns tomb was built after he departed for the Kiln, SLB was put on the tomb upon Firstborns exile. Gwyn may have had nothing to do with his sons banishment at all. I could see it either way.

    Off-note; His broken statue shows he favored a spear, maybe Orns is his sensai or vise versa.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 12:55 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:Nice speclah about Firstborn being a sympathizer I could see that.

    You think the remaining knights follow Orns or Gwyndolin? Because the tomb is technically empty, Gwyn's at the Kiln. So Gwyndolins obbsession with justice and due-respect might explain why only he's there protecting it. The others don't see a use in protecting an empty-symbolic-tomb, but instead a use in glorifying the illusion. No one revered Gwyndolin like his siblings, he may be giving orders through her illusion the way he misdirects the Chosen. May be he wants to be alone in the tomb. He is reclusive and if he did have daddy-issues it would explain. Unmasking the illusion being tantamount to blasphemy, it seems they all believed in the purpose of the Illusion. More so than I see them caring for an empty tomb. The tomb isn't going to prolong the age of fire, what they're concerned with, but the illusion will avail it.
    I thought about this while watching Breaking Bad, and viola I come here, and you already said it. My personal theory is that the tomb is Gwyndolin's man-cave of sorts where he dotes over the imagined spectre of his father, so to speak.

    Also about the illusion - anyone who joins a covenant in Anor Londo is made aware of the illusion, and is tasked with protecting it too, along with the respective deity (or illusion). Thus, Gwyndolin actually expects his servants - including humans to support his elaborate deception, against the Undead. No wonder all his followers are fanatics...

    About Gwynevere - Gwyndolin does not find the illusion-breaking to be offensive by itself... listen to his dialogue as Anor Londo goes dark. " You have violated the sacred form of the Godmother" (or something like that) - he's pissed because the Chosen undead wanted to harm Gwynevere - EVEN IF it was an illusion.

    Ok, he's nuts.


    Undiscovery wrote:Also rereading I don't think the body in the tomb is the firstborns, as he still closely watches over his warriors, I don't believe he's perished. I follow CakeThief's statement, Gwyns tomb was built after he departed for the Kiln, SLB was put on the tomb upon Firstborns exile. Gwyn may have had nothing to do with his sons banishment at all. I could see it either way.

    Off-note; His broken statue shows he favored a spear, maybe Orns is his sensai or vise versa.
    You could also make up your own headcanon... up to you. happy free speech(and thought), amirite?

    What I'm saying is - yes it's obvious that the tomb was built after Gwyn left, but that he had disowned his firstborn, who returned to the pseudo-funeral even though he had been kicked out. Talk about levels of devotion...

    Also, what could Ornstein teach to a god? More like Ornstein prayed, and Gwyn gave him the spear, while his firstborn gave him dem skills(and Smough gave him a boost)


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:06 pm

    Darkmoon ring states; "Gwyndolin, all too aware of his repulsive, frail appearence, created the illusion of a sister Gwynevere, who helps him guard over Anor Londo. An unmasking of these deities would be tantamount to blasphemy."

    So as you can see it's not because you wanted to harm Gwynevere, the literal unmasking of them is blasphemy.

    I could get the Firstborn returning though. Doesn't specify when exactly he put it just after he lost his status. Which doesn't imply anything.

    You can also see a chair pulled up to the front of the Coffin. Indicating someone who spent a lot of time sulking there/paying respect.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 2:55 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:Darkmoon ring states; "Gwyndolin, all too aware of his repulsive, frail appearence, created the illusion of a sister Gwynevere, who helps him guard over Anor Londo. An unmasking of these deities would be tantamount to blasphemy."

    So as you can see it's not because you wanted to harm Gwynevere, the literal unmasking of them is blasphemy.
    Damnit , I forget this little things... I really need to get back to Dark Souls, but I'm having to play through Dragon Age 2 (ugh) in order to get a save ready for Dragon Age Inquisition. I never wanted to touch the game...

    But the way the ring states it, the illusion of Gwynevere seems capable of thinking for itself... aka it seems like the illusion is alive, in a sort of way.

    Also, why would unmasking them be blasphemous? Gwyndolin that afraid to show that he is, technically bisexual (although in the concept art he is an outright chick)? I mean, I can't fathom what reasoning would go into it to call the unmasking "blasphemous" instead of extremely damaging. Only possible reason that I can think of it - it's blasphemy because Gwyndolin says so (which is lame).


    Undiscovery wrote:You can also see a chair pulled up to the front of the Coffin. Indicating someone who spent a lot of time sulking there/paying respect.
    I honestly can't see anyone sitting down for hours at a time (implied, since there is a chair) in front of a tomb just to pay respects to the dead... and Gwyndolin does not need it, unless his snakes are not out all the time, as shown in concept art. Again, weird levels of angst. The tomb is honorary, why... damn, just can't phrase the question.

    Lastly, why are the Gods' weapons made of demon titanite, I wonder? Every single person's weapons are either made from demon titanite (which was available only from titanite demons, or perhaps the Blacksmith God) that is indicative of Bed of Chaos, which has relations to humanity, which has.... the chain could go on, along with the irony. And the other option was the crystal weapons of Seath, which the gods despised because it was a product of sorcery generated from the very thing they turned into a currency.

    This is either highly contradictory, or weirdly convoluted.




    Completely unrelated, the Mimics' teeth are made of human fingers.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:12 pm

    May be the illusion can be 'alive', a shell-copy, the sentinels seem pretty aware for illusions too. Add in the fact they can kill you.

    I don't think the Gods has issues using the power of their failures and enemies. Their servants use dragon weapons, crystal, and Demon. Makes sense though, I guess Gwyn wasn't as prideful as he was competent; if others weapons were superior it'd be stupid not to utilize them for their own ends. All the Gods really got going for them is lightning.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:36 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:May be the illusion can be 'alive', a shell-copy, the sentinels seem pretty aware for illusions too. Add in the fact they can kill you.

    I don't think the Gods has issues using the power of their failures and enemies. Their servants use dragon weapons, crystal, and Demon. Makes sense though, I guess Gwyn wasn't as prideful as he was competent; if others weapons were superior it'd be stupid not to utilize them for their own ends. All the Gods really got going for them is lightning.
    Seath and Havel are outliers, man. Dragon weapons were like trophies.... as in " I wrenched this from the face of a dragon!" type. Crystal weapons are Seath's domain... and well, you know how he was looked upon. What I have issue with is demon weapons and their ties to chaos, and humanity. Also the fact that the titanite Demon in one of Anor Londo's rooms does not vanish or whatever - are the silver knights keeping it as a pet?

    Also, Gwyn and his coterie are the only ones who have lightning going for them especially. Nito and the Witch do not touch it - their powers can even be said to be anti-lightning (effigy shield description - godkiller shield easily made from a god's pwer)... and also, Nito and the Witch never really held themselves up as gods. Nito is First of the Dead/Gravelord, and the Witch is... well, dead. But the word LORD pops up, never GOD. Extremely significant, if there were gods before the Advent.

    About the sentinels - anything can kill. I'm talking about real sentient thinking, even if it's an illusion. As in a second Gwynevere with 0 HP and bigger tits. Except that said level of intelligent thinking and personality can be only obtained with a soul, and Seath is an expert at making pseudo-souls (moonlight butterfly)


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 14, 2013 4:09 pm

    You misunderstood (somehow?). I was never talking about the lords, when I said the Gods have lightning going for them I just meant the 'Gods' not the Lords, as I get the difference. Hah.

    I'd see the illusions more as an 'AI' than anything though. That's me. 

    The game states that titanite Demons were born from the slabs when the Blacksmith deity passed, and that the power of the slabs was inherited within them. It doesn't give a connection to the Chaos Demons. They use lighting as well, not chaos/fire. So I'm seeing them as God-friendly. I think the the title Demon is being used in it's etymology here, in which case it refers to a guardian spirit, or a Godling. The term Chaos Demon implies they were guardians of the Chaos Flame, while titanite Demons were guardians of the titanite.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:03 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:You misunderstood (somehow?). I was never talking about the lords, when I said the Gods have lightning going for them I just meant the 'Gods' not the Lords, as I get the difference. Hah.

    I'd see the illusions more as an 'AI' than anything though. That's me. 

    The game states that titanite Demons were born from the slabs when the Blacksmith deity passed, and that the power of the slabs was inherited within them. It doesn't give a connection to the Chaos Demons. They use lighting as well, not chaos/fire. So I'm seeing them as God-friendly. I think the the title Demon is being used in it's etymology here, in which case it refers to a guardian spirit, or a Godling. The term Chaos Demon implies they were guardians of the Chaos Flame, while titanite Demons were guardians of the titanite.
    I have an issue with overclarification rolling eyes  

    And AI has no soul?....oh wait let's not start that, or this conversation will degenerate into an 80s novel.

    About the chaos demons... they are literally everywhere from Izalith to Anor Londo - if they were servants of gods you'd think they'd do something instead of just sitting around. Basically I'd say that they were born of a god, but are kind of mindless. They being guardians is just placement (which makes me wonder, how the hell did the demon in Anor Londo get into that room?)

    Demon has many meanings.. I'm going to go say that the word is used in the same mentality that comes from Demons' Souls, especially since Dark is the spiritual successor. And the demons in that game were one and all power hungry or ****, with the sole exception of Maiden Astraea, who was just caught between a rock and a hard place. Thus guardian has no place in the definition - the game just clearly says out loud if a demon in guarding something (Sanctuary Guardian and Ceaseless Discharge), and no, convenient item placements do not count.

    My bigger peev is the Silver Knights cooperating with demons, guarding demon titanite, because they, and most gods use twinkling titanite for blacksmithing. Yet many weapons - Dragonslayer Lance, Smough's hammer are made of demon titanite. It makes my face go O_o

    Probably right about the AI thing though, but that doesn't mean the AI is not conscious and intelligent.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:20 pm

    Souls or no, I couldnt begin to speculate anymore on the illusions, they just seem more AI to me, I don't need an Illusion(AI)-revolt to start clouding the lore as well, haha.

    Even as a successor I don't see the same Demon-implications in Dark Souls. I see the titanite D's as straightforward as the game presents them. They were born from the Slabs to guard (or 'keep' if you will) them as the deceased blacksmith god no longer can. The fact that they use them for weapons implies more of a farming for them, or a hunting/razing. May be they have it trapped for when they need more Demon titanite. In either case I don't view them in a relation to the Chaos-born, their inceptions are completely separate.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:45 pm

    In relation to the Winged Demons in Anor Londo, pure speculation, but I thought they could be the remaining members of the Sun Bro covenant after the First Born was banished. They use demon spears which to me are a makeshift lightning spear made from the bone of other demons. They have constant smiles on their faces potentially as a mockery of their eagerness to help everyone they meet? 

    Something had to happen to the Sun Bros and if they are in game I'd guess it's them. Although if this is accurate it has some gruesome implications on how the first born fell from grace :/


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:01 pm

    That is a far-fetched speculation. I just assumed they left with him. As you can still become his warrior.

    I don't think or believe the firstborn was at odds with Gwyn in the sense of living in his shadow. I believe he tried to forge his own path, or rebel against any number of his fathers teachings. Gwyn was tired of insubordination. Punishing his son showed everyone else not to cross his authority, as Gwyn no doubt had an Ego.

    Also on ?eltas gods before the fire allusion, I have nothing to add, but it makes me want to bring up 'Allfather' Lloyd.Suspicious


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by CakeThiefPro on Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:25 pm

    Allfather Lloyd... I hate this man. Firstly he calls into question how long Gwyns race (human/pygmy imo but up for debate) has been alive before they find the lord souls as Gwyn already has some silver knights and has aged considerably when he finds it. 

    I asume he is the most important man/god outside of Lordran as Gwyns uncle and the fact he appears on the gold coin. His cleric knights hunt the undead across the land implying he may even be in charge of the WoW and the reason we're in the asylum. He seems to be the most likely candidate for the person pulling Petrus's strings as he has Lloyd talismans and is most likely one of his cleric knights. 

    Ultimately a very scary character I think he was probably sent into the outside world to spread the WoW and loyalty to Gwyn whilst destroying any potential undead candidates although I guess it's possible Gwyn feared his influence and potentially cunning/evil nature and sent him away from Anor Londo. 

    Just going over what I know about him. I guess it highlights the difference between Demon's Souls and Dark Souls. The outside world in Demon's Souls is normal and you come from there after the North uses soul arts whereas in Dark Souls everyone seems to act like trading souls is totally normal and you forget the rest of the world sees it as an evil practice.


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    Re: Dark Lord Ending Conjecture

    Post by δelta on Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:08 pm

    Undiscovery wrote:Even as a successor I don't see the same Demon-implications in Dark Souls. I see the titanite D's as straightforward as the game presents them. They were born from the Slabs to guard (or 'keep' if you will) them as the deceased blacksmith god no longer can. The fact that they use them for weapons implies more of a farming for them, or a hunting/razing. May be they have it trapped for when they need more Demon titanite. In either case I don't view them in a relation to the Chaos-born, their inceptions are completely separate.
    Born from the slabs yes.... guard, what? They don't guard anything as far as I can see - just sit at chokepoints/impossible locations, and Sen's Fortress is the sole exception with 3 demons in one hall.

    True about their origin being different, but the end result kind of winds out the same - corrupted mockeries of ordinary creatures ready to kill.


    CakeThiefPro wrote:In relation to the Winged Demons in Anor Londo, pure speculation, but I thought they could be the remaining members of the Sun Bro covenant after the First Born was banished.
    Chalk that one up to creative design, and since they are the servants of the Gods, they get standard issue lightning spears. Like COD.


    Undiscovery wrote:Also on ?eltas gods before the fire allusion, I have nothing to add, but it makes me want to bring up 'Allfather' Lloyd.

    CakeThiefPro wrote:Allfather Lloyd... I hate this man. Firstly he calls into question how long Gwyns race (human/pygmy imo but up for debate) has been alive before they find the lord souls as Gwyn already has some silver knights and has aged considerably when he finds it. 

    I asume he is the most important man/god outside of Lordran as Gwyns uncle and the fact he appears on the gold coin. His cleric knights hunt the undead across the land implying he may even be in charge of the WoW and the reason we're in the asylum. He seems to be the most likely candidate for the person pulling Petrus's strings as he has Lloyd talismans and is most likely one of his cleric knights. 

    Ultimately a very scary character I think he was probably sent into the outside world to spread the WoW and loyalty to Gwyn whilst destroying any potential undead candidates although I guess it's possible Gwyn feared his influence and potentially cunning/evil nature and sent him away from Anor Londo. 
    This guy is just sleazy - he gave off middle age Pope vibes after a 2 line description. I'd say that he has instituted a church system and also coinage, and is the guy behind the infrastructure of Gwyn's religion, with Gwyn as the face (figurehead?) Plus he is the grandfather of Gwyn... and had plenty of power before the Advent, it seems.

    This makes me question the assumptions made on the Advent too - with all the talk about how it was the beginning of everything light-based, the only way this conflict is resolved is either Dark Souls ages are cyclic, as in Fire-Dark-Fire, or a lot of the official history the Gods throw around is fabrication.


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