The Son of Chaos.

@ Doughguy-I figure Kirk is doing all he can to help theWhite Lady anyway as Miyazaki said in an interview that he was more a part of the Chaos Covenant than the Darkwraiths. The thorns to me symbolise the change from DW to Chaos Bro as they begant o grow out of his armour.

Also I don't think that if Ceaseless is the son (which apparently he is) he would have a seperate human form to use as well. If he could then whats the point of being Ceaseless's horrible in pain form at all?

I think Acidic was saying Kirk was ceaseless BEFORE the bed of chaos mutated him. Its not like he can switch back and forth.

I just always liked the idea of Kirk being the son more than ceaseless. The evidence was always stronger for ceaseless but I always liked the humane aspect Kirk being the son brang. With ceaseless being the son, it makes sense but the thing is he does nothing. He's there for one fight which you dont even need to do. Perhaps if we can find something more if you can avoid him it will work better for me.

Can you just explain to me how the thorns symbolize his change? I dont understand how joining the chaos servants from the darkwraiths would cause weapons designed to inflict pain to grow out of his armour.

From my perspective the Chaos Covenant is strongly linked with both fire and nature (as the weird pyromancer says that it has something to do with understanding oneself and the world around them) in this case where most chaos oriented things have some kind of fire attribute if you look around down deep in the demon ruins and lost izalith you see plenty of roots and such that you wouldnt expect to see down there (note I think this has some special significance more so that just them being archtree roots).

The thornes to me seem like some kind of development that has affected his armour. I interpreted this from the armour description which to me infers that the change happened after this stint as a DW.

So I sort of got the idea in my head that when Kirk left the DW's and joined the chaos covenant the more he served them the more the thornes grew until they defined his armour.

It could even be as simple as he commissioned armor that reflected his new covenant in an effort to represent them better. He can't grow spider legs (see below) but he CAN have spidery armor. For instance, Shiva's armor indicates it protects against slashes, the primary threat where it came from. So the armor was specifically made with a purpose in mind. Kirk is described as "murderous" I believe. So, despite some nice things he does for my fave lady don't forget the dude is a vicious killer. Like Leon from "The Professional." Great bond with Natalie Portman but when he's out to kill you......watch out. If I were a guy who was best described as "murderous" and had a strong bond with a spider lady, I would want armor that shows off who I am and what I do. Kill people and look like a chaos spider. Getting back to "he can't grow spider legs".......maybe he can. His path (depths, demon ruins, right outside bed of chaos) seems to suggest he was heading to the bed of chaos. Perhaps he hoped he could dive into the flames and become that which he worshiped?

ViralEnsign_ wrote:From my perspective the Chaos Covenant is strongly linked with both fire and nature (as the weird pyromancer says that it has something to do with understanding oneself and the world around them) in this case where most chaos oriented things have some kind of fire attribute if you look around down deep in the demon ruins and lost izalith you see plenty of roots and such that you wouldnt expect to see down there (note I think this has some special significance more so that just them being archtree roots).

The thornes to me seem like some kind of development that has affected his armour. I interpreted this from the armour description which to me infers that the change happened after this stint as a DW.

So I sort of got the idea in my head that when Kirk left the DW's and joined the chaos covenant the more he served them the more the thornes grew until they defined his armour.

Jeremiah has a whip with thorns and use chaos pyromancies so it could be something like that.

The armor says that he was a Darkwraith famous for his thorns. This would imply that he had thorns when he was a Darkwraith.

As well, king Jeramiah is a chaos Servent (as seen by egghead and chaos flames), and his weapon of choice is also thorns. That would imply that Kirk was once in lost Izalith, before he became a darkwraith, as he was known to have thorns when he was a Darkwraith.

Acidic_Cook wrote:The armor says that he was a Darkwraith famous for his thorns. This would imply that he had thorns when he was a Darkwraith.

As well, king Jeramiah is a chaos Servent (as seen by egghead and chaos flames), and his weapon of choice is also thorns. That would imply that Kirk was once in lost Izalith, before he became a darkwraith, as he was known to have thorns when he was a Darkwraith.

True enough but considering that he does wear armour similar to that of the DW's he could have been mistaken as such by his victims (this is highly unlikely though).

Does Jerimiah have an egghead? I didn't know that I just though his turban/crown thingy was really big because he had a complex or something like that.

If he does it's either at a different state than the rest of them or his sticky tape armor (thank you Dora the Explorer) mushes it up higher. I always thought he was just a reference to the boss in Demon's

It is. It is the form of an egg head, as well as blood stains and such are found on the head. As it would have grown higher by the cloth wrapped around it, it might be that the egg grew in time. Now whether the egg has transformed different enough to not turn into an eggcrawler or not is unknown, however the plagued hollows might show what type of egg it has formed to. As it spews poison, and the infected hollows blow poison and use flame Pyromancy, the infected hollows in the painted world seems to follow Pyromancy from the eggcrawler loyal to the white witch as well (whose name I don't remember)

skarekrow13 wrote:If he does it's either at a different state than the rest of them or his sticky tape armor (thank you Dora the Explorer) mushes it up higher. I always thought he was just a reference to the boss in Demon's

Yeah I figured that as well. But theres a blood stain right up there at the top of the bulge. Does that mean his head reaches up there?

Acidic_Cook wrote:The armor says that he was a Darkwraith famous for his thorns. This would imply that he had thorns when he was a Darkwraith.

As well, king Jeramiah is a chaos Servent (as seen by egghead and chaos flames), and his weapon of choice is also thorns. That would imply that Kirk was once in lost Izalith, before he became a darkwraith, as he was known to have thorns when he was a Darkwraith.

The armour actually doesn't say he was famous for his thorns

All the armour says:
".... Of kirk, knight of thorns and notorious member of the darkwraiths. A dense patch of thorns grows from their surface. They are fitting items for the murderous kirk, for by simply wearing them and rolling one can damage enemies"

His sword:
"the choice weapon for the infamous darkwraith kirk, also known as the knight of thorns for the gnarly spikes on his favourite weapon. The sharp spikes of this ghastly weapon cause heavy bleeding"

Shield:
"Shield of the infamous Darkwraith kirk, knight of thorns. Covered with spikes."

Just wanted to point out the use of words like "also known as" in his sword. There is also this distinct seperation between his names 'Knight of Thorns' and being a notorious 'Darkwraith Kirk' by the use of AND between the two in the armour description. It just seems to impy he is known as one or the other not "The Darkwraith Knight of Thorns" but instead "the darkwraith kirk" and "the knight of thorns kirk" Its worthy to note that when he invades it says: "Knight of Thorns Kirk has invaded" and not "Darkwraith(spirit) Kirk has invaded". In my opinion this implies a shift in his character. Perhaps in the past he grew famous as a darkwraith, but he now fights as a KNIGHT for the fair lady.

In contrast to my theory: the shield, it is the only peice of armour that drops this obvious distinction and simply uses a comma, still the seperation with a comma seems to suggest.. well.. seperation.

But, thats just what I think.

Of course when when every being is invading your world, unless it is that of invading a gravelord's world or being invaded by a darkmoon warrior, it always has Dark Spirit.

As well, the ideals of him being called Darkwraith Kirk, Knight of Thorns, is not as much as a separation at all. In fact, as the usage of no 'And', 'As well', or any other form would say that the two titles are that of Kirk, who is both a Darkwraith and a Knight of Thorns. Although separated in the fact that he is always the knight of thorns, as he still wears it when he is part of the Chaos Servants, it can be said that the Darkwraith factor was just a temporary term of which was part of his ideals during his lifetime. The ideals of which the Knight of Thorns would have been known for his status as being such a Knight even after his departure from the Darkwraiths. Of course, it does not mean that he lost his identity of being a Darkwraith at all...

Even thou he is part of the Chaos Servants later on, it can be said that he still reserves the ideals of a Darkwraith. Being that he invades and hunts down those of the Depths (Lost Izalith and Demon ruins as well), that he could be harvesting humanity in a form which other Chaos Servants would not be able to do. Such forms would include the invasion of other worlds, hunting down them for their humanity. Although he does not harvest humanity for himself (or Kaathe, in other terms), he harvests it for the White Spider, the Crippled Lady that is the Firekeeper of the Chaos Servants.

The ideals of a Darkwraith still live with the Knight of Thorns, and it can be said that even thou departure has been done, some ideals were kept at heart. It is for certain that the Darkwraith left the covenant towards the Chaos Servants, and brought treasures that have already been said in before posts.

As the lore has little specific information in terms of telling the truth directly, speculation is necessary, and as variety is the quality of Man everyone has different mind sets. Even you and I. Speculation for the truth is healthy, but it seems that the posts I have made have one way or another have become a strong debate between us. Which is fine... agreeing on everything someone or some people say all the time is very unhealthy in terms of finding the truth.

Your last paragraph is making me a little worried, I don't recall how I handled my former posts, but please don't feel like I am targeting you for debate. I agree with many things you have brought up in your lore thread, and I understand where you are coming from here as well. To me it just sounds as if he was notorious for being Darkwraith Kirk, and later on in his life, while still being known as a darkwraith he adopted the title Knight of Thorns. Afterall it is not clearly stated he is part of the chaos covenant in the game (to the best of my knowledge) So it would make sense that when he gained that title he was still known for being a darkwraith. Am I making sense? haha.

The text in his armour is written in a manner that makes me suspect one thing, that is not to say everyone gets the same feeling from this text. I hope I didn't insult you, because I am only trying to share in the speculation and bring to everyones attention the text in its entirety so they can take their own meanings from it.

Alright. Like I said, speculation is good. To each their own. I don't mind debates, I just have been noticing it lately. I will be posting soon. I have things to say about the ancient rite, which indeed includes the knight of thorns. Soon. I still need to find some more before I say it, thou.

I had the brilliant idea to use undead rapport on him. So I tried it out, and guess what? It all ended in tears..

So, I just figured out what he meant by "optional boss", which was both weird and a bit emotional, especially considering his backstory.

Don't talk about knowing it, post what you know before we die of hype!

Sorry, was the last post before I went to bed. I really don't know if I should tell, since that will kind of ruin your search. In hindsight I shouldn't have said anything at all.

It doesn't involve crossing the lava. The progress route is the same, fight is different.

Could you PM me please? Im dying to know.

I must know as well! Post it with a spoiler warning maybe?

And I. I would love to know something like this. Please think to yourself what if this was the secret of the pendant. Would you want to be kept in the dark?

It's similar to the glitch kill, but initiating the fight is done different.

Alright then, PM it to me as well!

There may also be some conditions that must be met, so I'll try with another character later, to make sure first.
Haste makes waste.

Don't do this to us man:(