The Son of Chaos.

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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:59 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:I know that they are not the human as you and I, and I know that do to their beastiality that they can not invade. However, in the aspect of the witches that are spiders, they are 'human'. However due to the curse that has affected them, they do not function as such, and can not invade.

    However Kirk does not have to be so. He could be that of similar to the sister of the Great swamp, or the Eldar sister who guards the enterance to the Bed of Chaos. Kirk could have left before the flame was lit, and he possibly escaped the Chaos Flame when it was lit. It is unlikely that the Ceaseless Discharge is that of the Son, but more so an aberration similar to that of the Centipede Demon, brought from the Chaos Ember as the Ring did for the Centipede. Such Chaotic Flames could explain the grossly disfigured creature that infects the area with lava.

    As Kirk was that of the Darkwraiths, he would have been in the Chaos Servents before joining, as the armor he wears defines it as Darkwraith, in which states that he uses such armor and weaponry when hen joined the Darkwraiths, which is before the time we fight him as a Chaos servent he is now. The Thorn Weaponry we know to be that of Chaos origin, due to the fact that one other user, the Exiled King of the Painted World, also has a notched weapon (whip), uses chaos weaponry (Great Fireball and Firestorm. possibly Firewhip), and has an egg form to be a head (which has blood spots, if you look), which resembles that he was part of the Chaos Covenant (whether he still is or not now is debatable). As Kirk seemingly is of feminime stature (yes, his armor looks less masculane than others, don't deny it), it can be that, as he was raised by the daughters of chaos, his sisters, it would be hard to be a macho surrounded by older sisters that are not so.

    Kirk the Thorned Knight is by no question of the Chaos Covenant, and more so was part of the Darkwraiths. As I can see, Kirk is more so the Son of Chaos than that of Ceaseless. Such ways of it having gaps and disfigurement is the same as what people seek of kaathe as 'true', because it is shoved in front of them to see and interpitate it. Just my thought on it.

    By the way, DoughBoy. +1. I gave you one in page 1. You do not follow the majority, I can appreciate that. I perfer variety myeself.

    Acid I think you are misundertanding. I am not stating my opinion on this matter, it is fact that I found reading Miyazaki's interview. He said that the witches are not human. When the interviewer ask him if Salaman and Quelana had a relationship, he said No, because Quelana is of a different species. They are like elfs, humanoid, but not human. Kirk cannot be the son of chaos, as he is human.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by User on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:08 pm

    How was the son born? As he is not a witch like the others, the only exclamation that the ring states, is that he was burned. As the sisters show, he was a different case than them. As the switches are sorcerers of the flame, they were never burned when born. He was. Such difference might say that he is somewhat human, as he is different from the beings born in the world of fire, and they were never burned.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:28 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:How was the son born? As he is not a witch like the others, the only exclamation that the ring states, is that he was burned. As the sisters show, he was a different case than them. As the switches are sorcerers of the flame, they were never burned when born. He was. Such difference might say that he is somewhat human, as he is different from the beings born in the world of fire, and they were never burned.

    Thats a good point if you say he suffered inflammation from the lava. Remember what Doughguy said, he his inflammation maybe be cause from a skin disease. If he had a disease, you can say that thats human-like. But we dont know if the witches suffered from diseases (maybe yes).


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by User on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:38 pm

    Read the ring. His sores were inflamed by lava from birth. It does not say what type of sore it is, but it can be said that it probably isn't disease so much as it is from opposition. As all of the Izalith in the clan is female, the mother and the seven daughters, such opposition of stature could have caused separation of what they are. Look at them as fighter Firekeepers.

    All Firekeepers are female in human, and many are accursed and usually handicapped when so. Gwyn is the only exception, but he is a special case, as all humanity drawn to the flame is to his warped knights, not himself. He is more so just a protector than Firekeeper. As the flame seemingly favors such sex, and the fact that the Witch's draw their power from such flame... Can it be said that such ties make them the species we call 'Daughters of Chaos', and neither human nor undead. Such similarity of human quality might be removed from such flame.

    The son, however, is not female, is not a witch. Perhaps this difference of sex caused him to be human, unlike the rest.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by Yukon on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:46 pm

    So is the general consensus that Ceaseless is NOT the son of the witch of Izalith, because honestly I made the connection based on his weeping sores, not thinking lava was coming from sore on the sons' body. I wasnt even aware ceaseless was suppose to leak lava, as he appears to be hurt by the bed of lava he stands in (you can even kill him with it) and in all the art I look at of him, his expression is severely pained, and he certainly has cracked black skin caused by contact with lava. As well he uses what looks like pyromancy in his attacks, a fire spray attack and a combustion like attack using his bone arm... and also has that spider-like mess on his back.

    Although I think the kirk idea sounds interesting it just doesnt make sense to me since quelana mentions only SHE escaped doesn't she? I don't understand why everyone is so ready to just call ceaseless "SOME MONSTER" when he has some really interesting design related to several motifs found in that area of the game. Unlike the taurus demon or the carpa or firesage, which I honestly consider are just spawn off the bed of chaos because of their reoccurances throughout the game. But ceaseless is unique, and directly protecting the bed of chaos just as much as Kirk is.

    Maybe someone can help me clear this up and set me on the right track.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by User on Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:48 pm

    She only notes that she escaped, yes, Kirk could have left before her, though. Perhaps his view of a second flame was not so appealing to him as his sisters, since he is not a witch.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by WyrmHero on Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:30 pm

    Acidic_Cook wrote:Read the ring. His sores were inflamed by lava from birth. It does not say what type of sore it is, but it can be said that it probably isn't disease so much as it is from opposition. As all of the Izalith in the clan is female, the mother and the seven daughters, such opposition of stature could have caused separation of what they are. Look at them as fighter Firekeepers.

    All Firekeepers are female in human, and many are accursed and usually handicapped when so. Gwyn is the only exception, but he is a special case, as all humanity drawn to the flame is to his warped knights, not himself. He is more so just a protector than Firekeeper. As the flame seemingly favors such sex, and the fact that the Witch's draw their power from such flame... Can it be said that such ties make them the species we call 'Daughters of Chaos', and neither human nor undead. Such similarity of human quality might be removed from such flame.

    The son, however, is not female, is not a witch. Perhaps this difference of sex caused him to be human, unlike the rest.

    You have conviced me. He was born being a male, so maybe he was different from the rest of his sisters. He was burned by the lava because he was human. Thats why his sisters made him the ring. He drops the ring, and leaves Izalith to join the Darkwraiths. Thats why he hides the Large Flame Ember from New Londo in the Demon Ruins. Thats why he tries to protect his mother and fights along his eldest sister. He steals your humanity, and feeds it to his spider sister to keep her alive. It all makes sense now. Thank you my friend.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by User on Tue Mar 06, 2012 10:35 pm

    I try. I truly do. Although I still am not finished with lost Izalith. Their is still more to be said their.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Wed Mar 07, 2012 5:06 am

    if you look at it from a game to game perspective the firesage is just an overweight middle aged flamelurker, they even have the same cheesing method, (get caught on environment and shoot away!) i.e i think hes a place holder boss, son of chaos... no new ideas there and with things like chaos flames etc its possible for new lifeforms to be created from human origins and thus still partially qualify as human... i think, as usual most archives threads get to deep for me and i start getting confused.... sigh...


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:35 am

    I think the thing is that ceaseless discharge is so hard to get rid of as the list of potential sons of the witch. He is standing over a witches body and ... just thought of something, went and checked the description of the gold hemmed black set - "Worn by the witch Quelana of Izalith, mother of pyromancy and Daughter of Chaos.
    She wore this gold-hemmed black set before even the Age of Fire,
    and it offer strong resistance versus fire, poison, and other perils.
    This seems to very strongly point to the body ceaseless is standing over as being Quelanas. So maybe she is a ghost. Back to what i was saying, he is standing over a witches body and, since he doesnt attack you until you touch it, he does paint him as being protective of it hinting he had a relationship to her. Maybe he is one of the sisters not a son? he also very closely resembles Quelaag's spider haf, lotsa eyes, tentacles/legs, same colour, fire everywhere.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:51 am

    Its probably the most logical assumption I think people like to speculate about Kirk due to his relative humaness/ human form, which is kind like what happened to the other siblings (most of them having some significant human aspect i.e Quelans innocence, Quelana's Human form, Quelags... we don't have to get into that...). Its also that Miyazaki/one of the Dark Souls team mentioned Kirks allegiance and with that new information speculation is rampant about who he is.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by DoughGuy on Wed Mar 07, 2012 8:53 am

    I rather like the idea of Kirk having joined the Darkwraiths to learn how to acquire humanity then abandoning them to use their arts to collect humanity for the Chaos Servants. It adds a very human aspect (lol) to both his character and the game as a whole. Think about how everything else in the game is so dark and depresssing, and then you have a beacon of hope, a person using the powers of "evil", killing others to ease the suffering of his sister.

    P.S. Thanks for the upvote acidic

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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by User on Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:55 am

    Hah, I stated that Kirk was part of the chaos servants and the sonnof chaos before the director stated. My thread's date shows proof, the third post out of the 4 reports from the old forum.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Wed Mar 07, 2012 6:42 pm

    We still don't actually know for certain he is the son of chaos it just speculation.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by User on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:28 pm

    I know. But you said that such ideas only swayed, by FROM. I detest to that, saying that I speculated before FROM. Just responding to the sentence.

    To be fair, much of the lore is speculation. It more so depends whether it fits or not, and it has the most sense of reason and logic.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Wed Mar 07, 2012 7:37 pm

    Ah sorry about that. Lol if you pegged it before FROM release the infor then thats a testament to how muych effort you put into trawling through the lore and all its sources.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by PhlyingDutchman on Thu Mar 08, 2012 4:03 pm

    I am also inclined to believe that ceaseless discharge is the "son of chaos," or at least the former owner of the charred orange ring.
    Look at the poor guy:

    I'd say he looks like someone with sores inflamed by lava. Plus, there isn't there a lava waterfall that runs from Ceaseless Discharge towards Lost Izalith, that drains down into the Centipede Demon room? Seems like the ring could have flowed right down there.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:20 pm

    I would go with ceaseless as well. Goes with the sores theme. I know that the ring states he had sores caused by lava and did not ooze lava itself but that may have been before the Bed of Chaos transformed most of the clan into demons. What once was sores oozing from contact with lava may have twisted to the lava itself. Also, it definitely appears he is defending that body which seems like a good tie in.

    The gold hemmed set is my favorite armor in the game and I always wondered about it being found on that body. That happens elsewhere where's there's contact with an NPC and later we find their equipment elsewhere (where they died presumably). With her though she doesn't invade or interact in what could be construed a typical way (like Kirk, Leeroy, or Dusk). The ghost theory above is one I like but differs from other interactions in the game. I made a thread awhile back about the possibility that Rhea in and after the ToG could be a ghost but the best argument against this is how it works against common game mechanics. Maybe there's more than one ghost (rather than phantoms) in Lordran after all.

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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by DoughGuy on Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:44 pm

    The main evidence I see for ceaseless being the son is the fact he'srotecting the body. If he had killed the sister there he would simply attack you on sight but he desn't until you touch the body. He's obviously protecting it. However Kirk also shows promise towards being the son (Acidic has given the evidence). I would be inclined to say I think ceaseless is the son, but I woul prefer Kirk to be the son for the story it would bring.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by Yukon on Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:03 am

    I don't think they are GHOSTS so much as the fabric of reality in lordran is like a fluid, they are probably years dead in the real timeline, but because of the confusion in the drift of time you meet them alive and are able to converse with them.

    I think of it like this, there are entities that can meet with your character in his/her time who mean to do you harm (red phantoms) or wish to guide you (white/sun bros) but there are also neutral beings like the crestfallen and quelana. Who are not part of your time necessarily, but are able to talk with you because for some reason your worlds are touching.
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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by DoughGuy on Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:54 am

    I think that most characters you see are actually part of your time. The crestfallen people, siege, reah and her entourage. Most of these spend too much time in your world to be phantoms/from other worlds. Those like Solaire and Laurtrec who disappear for long periods of time and can be summoned are from other worlds.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by Yukon on Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:48 am

    Of all the characters I always thought Lautric was the only one actually existing at the same time as me. Because he is the only one who will never, ever go hollow. Every other character I masterfully careened into insanity except for him. I just consider the idea of timelines to be a bit more dramatic than ghosts. Though I assume they are pretty much the same thing.

    And these characters that dissapear, I never really got that feeling, Siegmeyer dissapears frequently, but you cannot summon him. The only stationary characters are teachers and that seems to be for the sake of game mechanics if nothing else, because they all speak of having their own little thing to run off and do.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:35 am

    That was actually my other thought with Rhea as well and it works just as well for the Chaos Daughter. Rhea may be physically there every time you see her but each instance is a different "time" in her world. Kind of like our world is a nicely made sheet on a bed while hers is folded a few times. We only get to make contact with her at certain points in the fold. I actually conjectured that the three corpses in ToG might be Rhea and her bodyguards (who the heck knows if it's true, it was just a quirky thought) but the same explanation could apply to Quelana. We come across her dead and at another fold, haunting the swamp.

    Kirk would make an interesting story as the brother and there is definitely some evidence to point toward him. I always felt he was at least an ally (helping in the fight before Bed of Chaos and corpse near the white spider) as his actions seemingly imply he is assisting the daughters.

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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by DoughGuy on Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:09 pm

    @Skare - Read Acidic's most recent posts in the search for lore thread.

    @Yukon the evry fact you can invade Lautrec's world means he is not part of your world. Going hollow would imply the person is part of your world since it would be significantly harder for hollows to cross world sin my opinion.

    I'm pretty sure Petrus's continued existence in your world proves that rhea is part of your world however the corpses do confuse me. I think her 2 hollow protectors are ghosts or something while the bodies withe the are theirs. Another theory is that like people can travel time to other worlds their corpses may be able to as well.


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    Re: The Son of Chaos.

    Post by User on Fri Mar 09, 2012 9:16 pm

    Checked the corpses of ToG. All three are male.

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