Why Regulating Competition is Bad

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    Animaaal
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:17 pm

    Fine boss.

    I just don't  like being told what I'm thinking, or having words put in my mouth.  I just happen to be an individual who LETS people influence my thoughts.  I would listen to anything you thought was imbalanced, or anyone for that matter.

    This forum has history, and ignoring the greater (however inactive they may be) minds of the forum is disrespectful.  I'm standing up for my peeps...always have...always will.

    For the record, I have ZERO problems with the "play to win" mentality.  I don't bow with my DMB.  I also have never, EVER told anyone how to play.





    Here are some rules that could possibly help any FC (depending on soul level):

    -No grassing, Coloranthy, or Grass Crest Shield unless you are wearing 3 pieces of stamina impeding armor.
    (2 pieces??? Needs refinement).

    -No MoM unless you're mid-rolling.

    -No Pursuers. (EXTREMELY affected by lag).

    -No chainstabs.  The kick-->dagger bs is far too easy if you've practiced enough. Also, the "stand still" method ensures a hit...practically.

    -No TwoP in a confined environment.

    -No Wolf  Ring on dex builds.

    -No CoD, BDCR, GC wakeups after a backstab. (No way to avoid with proper timing).

    -The usual.




    And also, the best and most important part of my post was this:

    Animaaal wrote:...
    "Okay FROM, this is how we want the next game and this is why.  This is how we regulate our fight clubs, we would like this type of environment to be more apparent without the need for our self regulation.   If you don't change some of the cheap unbalanced bull*** that exists in your game, then...well....I've had enough "Back Stab Souls" to last me a lifetime."....


    Last edited by Animaaal on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:07 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : peps to peeps/shpeling)
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:29 pm

    Marino. wrote:You cannot compare Souls to a true competitive Game like Street Fighter and Lol, these Games focus on PVP/Co-op gameplay while Souls focuses on the Single Player Gameplay with some light Multiplayer as a bonus.
    It was never my goal to compare them, but why can't they be compared? I do not think developer focus is a reasonable basis for why something can or cannot be compared.

    Marino. wrote:As fun as Souls PVP is, it's not a true clash of skills with it's several broken mechanics.
    I disagree. Skilled players can consistently beat weaker players, and that is all that is needed for a 'true clash of skills.'


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:50 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:...
    It was never my goal to compare them, but why can't they be compared?  I do not think developer focus is a reasonable basis for why something can or cannot be compared...

    Developer "bias" and/or creative agenda is largely responsible for every FC, "community", and/or self-regulating gaming entity that exists.

    Take the "need" and "greed" in DCUO.  Prime example.  The community is right, Sony is not. The only DCUO players that disagree are those that want to DPS and "role".

    This is inarguable.  Should people have the right to DPS and "role"...yes.  It doesn't however, make the game developer right. It's the same thing as saying, "I'm a mortgage broker, and I have a right to charge 10%"<--------never seen it homeowners??????...oh ya, it exists.  AND it was responsible for the housing crash.

    They make mistakes...why not fix them through regulation?  I can compete with anyone here, doesn't mean I wanna fight with a "Backstab/counterbackstab to win mentality".

    ^Who wants that?!?!?! The minority.

    Anywho, I don't have a problem with Saint comparing games.  Dark Souls could be the same.......with some rules.Point Forward
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Bowdownbe4me on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:41 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    Here are some rules that could possibly help any FC (depending on soul level):

    -No grassing, Coloranthy, or Grass Crest Shield unless you are wearing 3 pieces of stamina impeding armor.
    (2 pieces??? Needs refinement).

    -No MoM unless you're mid-rolling.

    -No Pursuers. (EXTREMELY affected by lag).

    -No chainstabs.  The kick-->dagger bs is far too easy if you've practiced enough. Also, the "stand still" method ensures a hit...practically.

    -No TwoP in a confined environment.

    -No Wolf  Ring on dex builds.

    -No CoD, BDCR, GC wakeups after a backstab. (No way to avoid with proper timing).

    -The usual.
    No animosity whatsoever, so please don't read my message in that tone, but if you really believe these tactics to be imbalanced or overpowering than please duel me. I disagree with every item on your list, and I feel that the regulation of them in organized pvp only serves to weaken the playerbase and stagnate the player skill in general. I would argue that I can handle any one of these things without issue, and would gladly fight you or someone you know who can wield any of these tactics.

    I play on the Xbox under the Gamertag: Bowdownbe4me

    Also, I'm a little surprised you didn't add spears or the dwgr to that list. I'm not bothered by that, as I consider those fine as well, but I remember having a debate with you about them in months past.
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:44 am

    I think a few rules are beneficial to 'honorable' fights. Some people and groups take an issue they have with certain items too far, though. An example I offer to you is the Hornet Ring.
    I only used the Hornet Ring with Chaos Rapier for the first time a week or two ago. Generally, I mixed in as much straightforward attacks as I could and fished/parried as necessary. My fights were usually well-mixed and engaging, rather than the notorious 1HKO so many people have complained about.
    Then I engaged in some duals with several players on these forums with another build I had just finished-a character focused on using the MLGS with a Pursuers as his only spell, light rolling with 60 poise. The other player used HCSM, a katana and a heater shield-very fast. He dodged my pursuers every time easily; he rolled away from greatsword swings too fast to knock his shield away; with a katana's faster swing speed, he was able to stunlock me and outdamage me faster. I was at a major disadvantage at every range and with every


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:53 am

    I'm going to note that he is specifically directing his post at competitive play. Wether or not the game is intended to be competitive is entirely irrelivant, because it is competitive (hence the competitions, commonly known as duels.) Wether something is balanced for competition is only relivant to the number of potentially game breaking things, and even that is loosly related.


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:55 am

    every strategy I came up with. He was beating me nearly every time and it wasn't just about a difference in skill-he had a build advantage in every way. So I switched to a Velka's Rapier and Hornet Ring and increased my win percentage from around 205 to around 60%. I fished only when I was just flat-out unable to hit him any other way. And then they both complained.
    Then, earlier today, I was gravelorded in another build I'm almost finished with-a light-rolling BKGS user with a few pyromancies. I invaded the Gravelord and the ONLY thing they did was fish with a silver tracer and fury sword with a Hornet Ring. They kept bsing me with roll-bses from angles that my back had never even been anywhere near exposed to, so lag shouldn't have made them possible, nevermind the speed-they kept bsing from what looked like they were still in the roll. A single hit took me from 1500 to around 200 health. That was messed up, regardless of the difference in our skill levels.
    I think neither the Hornet Ring nor fishing are in


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:06 am

    inherently someting that rules usually have fair grounds to ban altogether. I still think banning the Hornet Ring altogether is generally unfair unless it's a themed fc that that interferes with the theme of. It's not inherently cheap or unfair; some mechanics and fishing styles combined with it, are, though, and are a problem, especially for groups looking for 'fair' duels. I think absolutely no weapon, spell or tactic (aside from the most extreme taking-advantage-of-lag-and-glitches and chainstabbing) are unfair on its own. Some when comined with certain others or a certain playstyle, though, are cheap; others are so unfair that they really shouldn't exist in this game, regardless of how many people use it. The number of those, though, are significantly lower than most fc's rules suggest.


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:38 am

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:....please duel me....

    I cried a little when I read xbox, then (no offense) thought lol.

    By now, the influx of talent in the souls series from the ps3 to the xbox has been fully integrated.  But...it still makes me chuckle inside. Dark Souls 2 then???...who knows.Shrug

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:..... I disagree with every item on your list....

    Fine.  But before I say anything, you better give reasons why.  If you don't, well....

    I will flood you with threads from xbox players in this forum who will smash you in pvp (or at least give you a run for your money, or fight well or....going for dramtic effect here...Shrug ) and have the most detailed pvp specific threads you will find ANYWHERE.<----this part not dramatic. Point Forward   

    I'm sorry, but the names Rynn, Wyrmhero, and B1A1NE should mean something to people when brought up.  Seriously...use...the...search...function.

    You didn't even bother to look up B1A1NE's thread about stamina being imbalanced before commenting on my reference.  I'm not doing the work for you.

    Use the search function and look up the threads they've made here before.  The necessary research required to develop an opinion already exists.  There is no need for regurgitation. I'm just getting tired of linking stuff all the time for the "vets".

    ***Again...everything huh?!?!?! Rebuttal please. Shrug

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:.... I would argue that I can handle any one of these things without issue.....

    THANK YOU. Praise the Lord thank you.  Hasn't the argument been, "Just because something beats you, it doesn't mean it's unbeatable"????

    Therefore, when you overcome, you should be aware of not overcoming.

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:...
    Also, I'm a little surprised you didn't add spears or the dwgr to that list...

    This is the kind of tongue and cheek comments that make me...*shrugs*.

    I think its pretty clear if I wanted it added,  I would have added it.  Don't ninja-instigate with me.not talking 


    Also, EVERY FIGHT CLUB IN THIS FORUM (and most forums everywhere) HAS A RULE....:00 011:

    ^Its just true.
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Raijinilli on Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:47 am

    Genius.


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Bowdownbe4me on Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:27 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    Bowdownbe4me wrote:....please duel me....

    I cried a little when I read xbox, then (no offense) thought lol.
    You're already making assumptions about me without evidence?

    By now, the influx of talent in the souls series from the ps3 to the xbox has been fully integrated.  But...it still makes me chuckle inside. Dark Souls 2 then???...who knows.Shrug
    It's a little presumptious to make blanket claims about a playerbase on a system that you yourself don't use.

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:..... I disagree with every item on your list....

    Fine.  But before I say anything, you better give reasons why.  If you don't, well....
    I am not going to turn this thread into another "X is cheap" "X is not cheap" argument. The thread topic itself is golden, and I stand by its message. The absurdly diverse mindsets of people approaching pvp with their own rulesets do nothing for the "greater good" or unity of the Dark Souls community.

    Have you noticed that there are a lot of different DkS communities? Soulswiki isn't the only one, (heck, I'm from GFaqs), and if you check around you'll see that each community gravitates towards different pvp mentalities. This would maybe be all well and good if everyone within each community was settled on a static ruleset, but the point of fact is that within each of these communities there is no "agreed upon" pvp ruleset (rather, each community simply gravitates a bit more in one direction). Soulswiki, from what I've gathered every time I join in, gravitates towards increased regulation and player-rules, and also has a tendency to call more tactics "cheap" or "overpowered" (no judgment, this is merely what I see in observation). The folks over at GFaqs tend to be more "anything goes," and any topic created that says "X is cheap" is shot down before it gets off the ground. (This merely demonstrates a differing mentality. Once again, I am making no judgments).


    I will flood you with threads from xbox players in this forum who will smash you in pvp (or at least give you a run for your money, or fight well or....going for dramtic effect here...Shrug ) and have the most detailed pvp specific threads you will find ANYWHERE.<----this part not dramatic. Point Forward   
    Please don't underestimate me.

    I'm sorry, but the names Rynn, Wyrmhero, and B1A1NE should mean something to people when brought up.  Seriously...use...the...search...function.
    Why would I use the search function to find skilled pvp'ers on the soulswiki forums who may or may not be willing to fight me in order to demonstrate the validity of your own pvp ruleset? How would I even find such people with the search box? It seems fair to me that I'd leave the task of recommendations up to you.

    You didn't even bother to look up B1A1NE's thread about stamina being imbalanced before commenting on my reference.  I'm not doing the work for you.
    Just because I disagree means that I didn't read the thread?

    Use the search function and look up the threads they've made here before.  The necessary research required to develop an opinion already exists.  There is no need for regurgitation. I'm just getting tired of linking stuff all the time for the "vets".
    I never even asked you for 'informational posts regarding pvp' or some-such business. My point was simple: if you think X tactic is unbeatable, or leads to a massive advantage, and *I don't*, then lets put our money where our mouths are. Bring X tactic against me and then we will see how unfair it really is.
    Bowdownbe4me wrote:.... I would argue that I can handle any one of these things without issue.....

    THANK YOU. Praise the Lord thank you.  Hasn't the argument been, "Just because something beats you, it doesn't mean it's unbeatable"????

    Therefore, when you overcome, you should be aware of not overcoming.
    What? Care to elaborate?

    Bowdownbe4me wrote:...
    Also, I'm a little surprised you didn't add spears or the dwgr to that list...

    This is the kind of tongue and cheek comments that make me...*shrugs*.

    I think its pretty clear if I wanted it added,  I would have added it.  Don't ninja-instigate with me.not talking 
    No instigation. Again, I did say at the beginning of that post that I was not to be read in a negative tone of voice. My question about the spear flippers wasn't tongue-in-cheek. I was legitimately curious about why they didn't show up, given how adamant you were about them the last time we spoke. -And just because I raised the question doesn't mean it's suddenly made it to your list. I raised a question... That's it...

    Also, EVERY FIGHT CLUB IN THIS FORUM (and most forums everywhere) HAS A RULE....:00 011:

    ^Its just true.
    You play primarily on the soulswiki, I would guess, otherwise you wouldn't make such claims.

    Edit: I just want to add an appeal to the mods not to lock this thread. I understand you lock a thread when it becomes a mess of negativity and instigation, and I will certainly do my best not to fall into that, but as a whole I think it would be a shame to lose this thread over such frivolity.

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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:11 pm

    Again, it has nothing to do with who can overcome and who cannot.

    It only has to do with how regulation (community made rules) can help balance a game with balance issues.

    Also, you're wrong about this wiki.  Most people here (who participate in FCs) are of the mindset that almost nothing is cheap, and there is no need for FC rules.

    I am absolutely NOT a representation of those individuals, as a matter of fact, they do not want to be related to my mind set in any way shape or form.
    (most of them)


    I apologize to them if my statements seem to represent the whole of the pvp community here.

    Believe it or not, I agree there is no NEED for rules in a FC. I just refuse to believe that its not possible to expand the playing field and open up build design possibilities.

    Also, the only thing you said about my rule suggestions, is that you can overcome them, which is irrelevant.

    Take the "Only mid-rollers can wear MoM"...does it REALLY affect anything???  Mid-rolling still kinda blows, so why not give them some love?

    Doesn't really matter, because every time I bring up any rules for a FC the response is ALWAYS, "There's a counter for everything"....which has nothing to do with it.  No one ever addresses the suggestions directly...EVER.

    Also, I thought the whole "xbox has caught up with the ps3 community" and "going for dramatic effect here" made it obvious that I wasn't underestimating your skill.  I shoulda used a smiley I guess.

    However, you didn't address how any rule I suggested would hurt more than it helps.

    If there are say 40 completely viable builds in a "no rule" environment, then I say the community can create some rules and expand the field to 50, or maybe even 60.

    And once again, I have no problems  with the "play to win with the tools you're given attitude".  Certain rules would just be dumb.  Never said anything like, "No spears"...."no offensive backstabs"....."No Giant's Armor"......

    Just because someone suggests that something is cheap or unbalanced, does NOT mean they don't understand the counters for said tactics.

    ***edit***

    I've never seen a FC that allows "mushrooming".  So yes just about every FC everywhere has at least 1 rule.
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:54 pm

    WRONG. I never said it was MY point of view.

    1.  You asserted that regulation could improve balance
    2.  The point I quoted stated "There are players here who are the pvp elite.  Some of those players have straight out said, "Dark Souls pvp and/or fight clubs would be better if xyz, and here's why"
    3. 
    Said quote was used as a point in favor of regulation, and is definitely an appeal to authority.  That their opinion does or does not match your own isn't relevant to that reality.

    Ignoring the majority, or at the very least not considering their point/s of view is arrogant and childish and very VERY egotistical.

    Appealing to the masses is a logical fallacy.  I also did not say the masses should be ignored outright, just that a mass opinion is not necessarily a valid basis upon which to argue balance.  Please do not change my position or argument in order to argue against it.

    Save what you want.  I have an opinion…so do others…DEAL with it.

    I am merely pointing out that speculating on what might happen in a future game does not carry much relevance to the current game or setting rules.  In order to come up with rules regarding the game's mechanics, it is necessary to know what those mechanics actually are.  Speculation is fine, but speculation of what DS2 might be like is not a valid argumentative driver in this thread.

    If you need to ask, then don't.  Just go pvp more, you'll figure it out on your own.

    My anecdotal experience-based opinion is no more or less valid than anybody else's when it comes to making balance rulings.  That is why I am insisting that we do not rely upon them.

    Follow your own advice.  Mocking the opinion of the prestige players is the EXACT same thing.

    I did no such thing.  I merely pointed out that no matter how experienced a player is, they still necessarily can not have the entire picture or accurately perceive balance without bias.  Experienced anecdotal evidence does not change the fact that it is anecdotal.  That is not mocking players, it is acknowledging that they are human beings.

    Again, DON’T tell me what I think.  You have no idea, you haven’t even asked nicely, but have assumed everything.

    I have stated your arguments to the best of my ability based upon what you have written in this thread.  I definitely have not sought to describe what you're thinking, nor do I believe doing so would be conducive to the discussion.

    EDIT: IMO the opinions of experts is worth far more to balance than statistics.

    Inherently, that isn't true.  Balance can be defined numerically.  The issue is that interpreting statistics is difficult in general and requires context.  If we had infinite resources, we would probably prefer a large panel of experts interpreting statistics who could discern some context from emerging strategies and things that are winning often or rarely.

    From a practical standpoint, I don't see a method to reliably and consistently track statistics in the long term unless something about the game itself changes.  Therefore, I propose that the best solution would be to have a community-driven effort to come up with criteria for what constitutes a "bannable tactic", and then have a group of experts discuss what, if anything, falls inside that criteria.  IMO such a setup, if it hosted events consistently and had good criteria, would eventually overtake the scattered FC and "standardize" the rules.

    Again, it is not rational to take the opinions of one or a few players, no matter who they are, and use them as a basis to make up rules.  If we want a rigorous, long-standing competitive rule-set we need to first identify rule-setting criteria that can be used to evaluate tactics on an objective and consistent basis.  That is something the DS community to this point has lacked.


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:09 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:....Said quote was used as a point in favor of regulation, and is definitely an appeal to authority...

    Authority??? It's whatever man.

    TheMeInTeam wrote:....Appealing to the masses is a logical fallacy.  I also did not say the masses should be ignored outright, just that a mass opinion is not necessarily a valid basis upon which to argue balance.  Please do not change my position or argument in order to argue against it....

    Again, I have my own opinons, it has nothing to do with appealing to the masses.  I never said listen to xyz because they are GODS.  Again, you are putting words in my mouth.

    I’m not appealing to the masses, you assume too much, and I think for myself. But yes, I take other people’s opinions into consideration.  I never think just because someone said something that it must be true.

    You make it sound like I read a couple threads, took their word for “golden” without even considering my own point of view.  And since you keep stating it over and over and over, it seems intentional.

    And again, no rebuttals?
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Emergence on Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:35 pm

    Ok now we are going in circles.  Let's get back to Regulation vs. De-Regulation before this becomes too pedantic, overly focused on semantics or an I must win grudge match.  This is a solid thread, if I get the sense it is becoming a tete a tete between two or more individuals, we'll scalpel the bickering posts out and ask the posters in question to cease posting in this thread and make way for the overarching topic of Regulation.  This is point v counterpoint, not person v person and it is tiresome for someone new to a thread to sift through walls of text that are debating semantics. And go.


    Last edited by Emergence on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:21 pm

    In that case, by far the hard part here will be coming up with criteria.  The purpose of the rules is to enhance the experience of the players in a given competition.  A rule should therefore do that, but how do we evaluate whether it does so?  That is what I mean when I describe the need for rules criteria.  Perhaps we should also divide the rules into a few subsets:

    Logistics rules: Where to go to meet other competitors, Soul Level, Time of competition --> anything involved in getting players to the point where they can actually fight.  The criteria for these are self-evident.

    Game rules: Rules against explicit cheating at the game level...IE not banning in-game choices but rather specific 3rd party tampering.  This includes the typical modifications like lag switch and hp freeze. The primary criteria in this category is that it prevents people from modifying the game to the point where it is no longer a Dark Souls match but rather a match in a completely different (thanks to hacking) game.

    Tactic rules: Rules against actions that the base game otherwise allows, and by far the most controversial set.  The criteria for these is not self-evident and is the true source of disagreement in the community.  This is probably where we should be debating.  What is the criteria for making a rule?  Here's a proposed list to get us started:

    A banned tactic:

    a)  must be over-centralizing*
    b)  must be reasonably avoidable
    c)  must be detectable (aka enforceable)
    d)  must be shown to meet the above in an objectively demonstrated way

    * Over-centralizing is defined as something that is strong enough that one must use it to be competitive with others who use it. 

    This definition could potentially use a lot of work, although as it is it wouldn't ban very many things, if any outside of egregious glitches, for the time being.

    -------------

    With the above rule set, we'll probably see an emergence of "top tier" things.  However, if we don't, perhaps the game isn't as imbalanced as alleged.  An interesting rule would be to make sure everyone posts their build as part of signing up for each competition.  This, by itself, would result in an impressive amount of self-regulation (IE counter-builds and people forced to become balanced to handle a variety of things) and provide a minimum level of objective evidence that could be tracked if the community wished.

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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:20 pm

    ^I think that's a GREAT format.

    However, there would probably need to be formats based on location.
    ie TWoP isn't a problem in Arty's Arena, but would be a huge problem in the Lower Blighttown Arena, that is,
    if the bow-->buff-->fight rule is in play.

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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:36 pm

    And also, I think that post should be made into it's own thread. I think it might take away from the premise in which the op intended the discussion to take place.

    I don't think a discussion like this coincides with the mentality of "playing to win with the tools you're given".

    But if Saint doesn't care, I surely don't. I just don't think its fair if it takes away from the discussion he intended to have.

    I'm partially (if not mostly) to blame for that. I apologize.
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:55 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:make sure everyone posts their build as part of signing up.

    What if I want to switch builds part way through the tournament? Mix my armor or weapons around depending on the match-up? Etc.


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:04 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    TheMeInTeam wrote:make sure everyone posts their build as part of signing up.

    What if I want to switch builds part way through the tournament?  Mix my armor or weapons around depending on the match-up?  Etc.

    I just got home from 4th celebrations and will sleep on some of the points/questions posed since I was here last.  Menu swapping is a complication, a good point, and most likely solid play...but it does complicate how one would list a build to a degree.  IMO if you're using multiple builds, simply list both builds; mugenmonkey is easily one of the best 3rd party planning/communication tools the community has.  I wonder if the folks that run it would be willing to partner up...the way its used could potentially grow.
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:22 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:
    TheMeInTeam wrote:make sure everyone posts their build as part of signing up.

    What if I want to switch builds part way through the tournament?  Mix my armor or weapons around depending on the match-up?  Etc.
    Also that makes it a lot tougher to keep people off balance (because they know all your gear) and forbids me doing things like menu swapping to do so. Going from zweih to demon spear to large club to falchion in the space of a fight is going to unsettle most opponents as they struggle to adapt to your widly varried playstyles and is an effective and entirely fair way to fight.


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jul 05, 2013 9:52 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:In that case, by far the hard part here will be coming up with criteria.  The purpose of the rules is to enhance the experience of the players in a given competition.  A rule should therefore do that, but how do we evaluate whether it does so?  That is what I mean when I describe the need for rules criteria.  Perhaps we should also divide the rules into a few subsets:

    Logistics rules: Where to go to meet other competitors, Soul Level, Time of competition --> anything involved in getting players to the point where they can actually fight.  The criteria for these are self-evident.

    Game rules: Rules against explicit cheating at the game level...IE not banning in-game choices but rather specific 3rd party tampering.  This includes the typical modifications like lag switch and hp freeze. The primary criteria in this category is that it prevents people from modifying the game to the point where it is no longer a Dark Souls match but rather a match in a completely different (thanks to hacking) game.

    Tactic rules: Rules against actions that the base game otherwise allows, and by far the most controversial set.  The criteria for these is not self-evident and is the true source of disagreement in the community.  This is probably where we should be debating.  What is the criteria for making a rule?  Here's a proposed list to get us started:

    A banned tactic:

    a)  must be over-centralizing*
    b)  must be reasonably avoidable
    c)  must be detectable (aka enforceable)
    d)  must be shown to meet the above in an objectively demonstrated way

    * Over-centralizing is defined as something that is strong enough that one must use it to be competitive with others who use it. 

    This definition could potentially use a lot of work, although as it is it wouldn't ban very many things, if any outside of egregious glitches, for the time being.

    -------------

    With the above rule set, we'll probably see an emergence of "top tier" things.  However, if we don't, perhaps the game isn't as imbalanced as alleged.  An interesting rule would be to make sure everyone posts their build as part of signing up for each competition.  This, by itself, would result in an impressive amount of self-regulation (IE counter-builds and people forced to become balanced to handle a variety of things) and provide a minimum level of objective evidence that could be tracked if the community wished.

    For the record, banning tactics is creating a complex rule. Complex rules are the worst kind of rules because they are subject to interpretation.

    Instead, if anything is to be banned, it should be an item or specific move. One must identify the "broken element," the thing (item, move, ect.) that makes the tactic "broken" and then ban that. Its not fair to builds that rely on that item/move for reasons other than the 1 tactic no, but it creates a simple, easily identifyable, objective and absolute rule, thus eliminating any dispute. Either you did or did not break the rule, no arguing circumstances or other such time wasters.

    (for the record, in an organised setting, the only rule I'd impliment in a duel is no item healing, meaning I would ban the use of humanity, divine blessings and eustus after a bow (not before, to allow healing from previous matches/mobs/invaders)


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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jul 05, 2013 10:22 pm

    Why does everyone say no humanity healing?

    1 per round would be fine and compensate for the fact that no one has 3,000 health. The damage output compared to the average maximum health points at sl 100-120 is imbalanced.

    If you can set it up and use it you deserve it. DBs and mushrooms are crazy talk though.
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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Jansports on Sat Jul 06, 2013 7:23 am

    Animaaal wrote:Why does everyone say no humanity healing?

    1 per round would be fine and compensate for the fact that no one has 3,000 health.  The damage output compared to the average maximum health points at sl 100-120 is imbalanced.

    If you can set it up and use it you deserve it. DBs and mushrooms are crazy talk though.

     Actually because Vitality - Health scaling starts getting bad at 40 and atrocious past 50 I would think the Damage to Health ratio is right around where it was intended to be.

    But I see "no item healing" as a simple straight forward rules that catches all manner of possible problems. While it isn't exactly that Humanity is overpowered it just simply has the potential to extremely delay matches. And putting a limit such as 1 humanity per duel is akward. If I get hit and interrupted before the humanity gets used up does it count? What if two spear/rapier turtles slowly poke at each other, chipping their 1500 health for 3s and 4s (Eagle shield) And it takes so long a player legitimately forgot they already used their Humanity?  Simply saying "No item healing" prevents these awkward grey areas from popping up.

    Also a tactic to nominate. Rolling.
    1. Builds that roll have a distinct and clear advantage over builds that do not roll.
    2. Don't push your roll button, avoided simply.
    3. It is quite detectable when someone does roll
    4. While there are some builds used in PvP that do not roll, they are the extreme minority. The sheer prevalence of rolling in PvP in demonstrative of it's extreme power. A roll has the potential to negate literally any attack a player can perform.

    I think the definition could use some work, but I honestly couldn't improve what is already there.

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    Re: Why Regulating Competition is Bad

    Post by Animaaal on Sat Jul 06, 2013 11:24 am

    ^I just think 1 mistake in this game can mean almost instant death.  Especially combined with wake ups.

    I don't think duels last that long to begin with.  30 seconds...2 minutes maybe?  I personally, and know others that feel the same, would like to see duels last a little longer. There are plenty of statements and threads about that.

    That's the only reason for the statement of "health to damage output is imbalanced".  It's because of my preference not to have 75% (or more) of my health depleted from one backstab and one wake up.  I should have made that more clear.

    I just think hard humanity heals are very "stoppable" and it takes a lot of skill to set them up, otherwise you're just saying, "LOOK! I have something shiny in my hand...come and backstab me!!!" silly

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