O & S..from a phantom's perspective

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    Animaaal
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    O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:31 pm

    There are a couple rules I follow when phantoming this boss.  I was just now a phantom for this fight, and wondered if I should have broken my "rules".

    RULES

    1)  Always go for Smough's agro first.

    2)  Wait to see what the host is doing.  Whoever the host attacks is who I assume he/she wants killed first.

    3)  If the host is losing the dps race, ignore the tanking and try to dps-tank simultaneously.

    4)  I don't humanity heal until the first one is dead.


    Here's the situation.

    I was going around with a host that had the Catch Pole and was fat-rolling.  I assumed they didn't really have an idea about what to do because of how they behaved.  I try not to assume the host is ignorant if they want the "sunlight medal chests", but to me it might be a sign they might not be familiar with the Llyod's Talisman SoA farming trick.

    So we get to the boss and I think, well this guy obviously wants Smough's armor (He put Havel's  armor on right when he got it.)  However, he went for Smough right away.

    Me and the other phantom tried to dps O, but a good phantom usually follows these rules.

    I couldn't help but think, "I would've done this guy a favor by getting him Smough's armor...but..."

    I also realize the "there will be a next time" thing.

    What do you all think? confused


    Last edited by Animaaal on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:35 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : spelling/grammer)
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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:31 pm

    I try not to get phantoms unless they are on my psn. Most phantoms I've seen, never follow the host. 9 out 10 kill wrong guy cause he's stronger than me n host. Even if you message the person before entering fog, 9 out of 10 they don't speak english. For me, i'll help the host. If he goes after smough so will I. 
    I had a host in smough gear, so naturally he wants smough dead 1st. Other phantom kills O before us and host was super mad. To me, the worst place for summoning help is anor, I'd rather summon solaire. At least he can keep one busy while I kill the other. If I do summon and you ignore my message, i'll blk you out.


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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:01 pm

    I've helped a couple times on this fight.  I always just follow the host's lead.  Kill who they kill and whatnot.  If I were Solaire, I would just bleed at the first one that glanced at me.

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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Akuro on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:15 pm

    Depends. If the host tends to know what they're doing, I leave them to their own devices. Otherwise I have to hold their hand through an entire area/boss fight, which is expected of course.


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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:40 pm

    Here's how I usually help with O&S:

    1.  If host targets Ornstein, I will pillar-trap smough and stand there distracting him, giving host as much time as he needs.  This is my default behavior.

    2.  If host targets Smough, I'll get up in O's grill and block constantly.

    3.  After either is dead, I whale on the other from behind pillars using a bow or magic.  I will go out of my way to get super O or S attention if host is getting hurt, but still largely just pillar block + chip.

    I win that fight a lot as a phantom.  If the host doesn't want to kill the person he's engaging and really wants to kill the person I'm engaging, he will let me know this by switching targets.  I don't attack much in the O&S phase regardless; I play decoy because honestly, that makes fighting either O or S individually trivial as long as you truly hold the other's attention.

    I recorded a fight with them where I just stood still while host + other phantom took an eternity beating on O.  I literally just stood there, with S constantly spamming his shoveling move into the pillar.  I even looked away for an extended period to watch the other 2 fight.  Eventually, they killed O, the phantom died to super S, and I spanked super S with great heavy soul arrows or some such lol.  I'm pretty sure the host had no idea what I was doing in that fight at first, but he figured it out pretty quickly after he ran back to heal and super S just sat there beating on the pillar and let me finish the job lol.
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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Walter_White on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:16 pm

    agree with above
    i've coop O&S for month and that's i ended also
    in the first weeks i followed the rule:
    if ng kill S ASAP ring and harder, So O first for ng+
    i know better than host, if he doesn't messages.
    but after a while getting ganked by O&S i decided, that distracting the one who isn't attacked by host and then finish super whatever fast, is better


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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Exequim on Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:00 pm

    I was playing one time and I entered the fog. I pretty much went after Ornstein and killed him since the Host was attacking him. After we took out Ornstein, and Super Smough appeared. I started doing my thing on him. About when Smough was below 20ish percent. The Host went behind the pillar during the super butt slam, and banished crystal'd me out and I assume he finished off Smough.

    That was a severely depressing day. I lost my faith in humanity and my humanity in that game. /pun
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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Odinbear on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:36 am

    I think they both are gonna die.  My first playthrough, I had no idea what you got by killing one first, so I didn't care who dies first. I assume most hosts are the same, but I follow their lead.  Easy enough to tell if they are just trying to survive or they want one or the other dead.


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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by twigsterxd on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:43 am

    Exequim wrote:I was playing one time and I entered the fog. I pretty much went after Ornstein and killed him since the Host was attacking him. After we took out Ornstein, and Super Smough appeared. I started doing my thing on him. About when Smough was below 20ish percent. The Host went behind the pillar during the super butt slam, and banished crystal'd me out and I assume he finished off Smough.

    That was a severely depressing day. I lost my faith in humanity and my humanity in that game. /pun
    He may have realized he killed wrong boss 1st. Had that happen a few times but usually with message to drop my sign

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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:44 pm

    twigsterxd wrote:... If I do summon and you ignore my message, i'll blk you out...

    That's a pretty good point.  Listening to the host's message should be rule #0 I suppose.  Personally, I rarely get messages from hosts in this fight anymore.  If it is in English and coherent, I'll bow to show I understand.  If it's in Japanese or another foreign language, I'll "shrug".

    TheMeInTeam wrote:Here's how I usually help with O&S:

    1.  If host targets Ornstein, I will pillar-trap smough and stand there distracting him, giving host as much time as he needs.  This is my default behavior.

    2.  If host targets Smough, I'll get up in O's grill and block constantly.

    3.  After either is dead, I whale on the other from behind pillars using a bow or magic.  I will go out of my way to get super O or S attention if host is getting hurt, but still largely just pillar block + chip.

    I win that fight a lot as a phantom.  If the host doesn't want to kill the person he's engaging and really wants to kill the person I'm engaging, he will let me know this by switching targets.  I don't attack much in the O&S phase regardless; I play decoy because honestly, that makes fighting either O or S individually trivial as long as you truly hold the other's attention.

    I recorded a fight with them where I just stood still while host + other phantom took an eternity beating on O.  I literally just stood there, with S constantly spamming his shoveling move into the pillar.  I even looked away for an extended period to watch the other 2 fight.  Eventually, they killed O, the phantom died to super S, and I spanked super S with great heavy soul arrows or some such lol.  I'm pretty sure the host had no idea what I was doing in that fight at first, but he figured it out pretty quickly after he ran back to heal and super S just sat there beating on the pillar and let me finish the job lol.

    I love the description.  I think it’s a great contribution to anyone looking to become a great Anor Londo phantom.  Personally, I only use those types of tactics infrequently.  It’s similar to the “bow stunlock Quelaag” tactic.  While it is super efficient and almost ensures safety for the host, it can be very impersonal to the host and not a very good learning experience.

    I do however, REALLY appreciate you posting this.  Very informative and VERY useful knowledge for the readers.

    You receive my +3 thank you.

    Odinbear wrote:...  Easy enough to tell if they are just trying to survive or they want one or the other dead....

    Lol, that's what I thought until I thought about this lol.  I'm with ya though, I always figured it was a pretty easy observation.

    I've never asked myself if it was appropriate to "assume on behalf of the host" before ya know?

    twigsterxd wrote:
    Exequim wrote:I was playing one time and I entered the fog. I pretty much went after Ornstein and killed him since the Host was attacking him. After we took out Ornstein, and Super Smough appeared. I started doing my thing on him. About when Smough was below 20ish percent. The Host went behind the pillar during the super butt slam, and banished crystal'd me out and I assume he finished off Smough.

    That was a severely depressing day. I lost my faith in humanity and my humanity in that game. /pun
    He may have realized he killed wrong boss 1st. Had that happen a few times but usually with message to drop my sign

    Again, another good observation twigsterxd.  I feel your pain of the black crystal Exequim.  I think the host could have at least sent you another message like twig said.

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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:48 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:I've helped a couple times on this fight.  I always just follow the host's lead.  Kill who they kill and whatnot.  If I were Solaire, I would just bleed at the first one that glanced at me.

    And also...

    ...wat??? laughing

    Solaire can bleed himself ?!?!!?  surprised

    Solaire op plz nerf.
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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Djem on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:06 pm

    One time I was summoned for this fight. The host started attacking Ornstein ASAP, and the other phantom aggroed Smough away, so I proceed to start beating down Ornstein. The host runs away, black crystals me out, and sends me a message saying, "Learn your job you stupid Japanese."

    ...

    I replied with a message saying, "NORTH KOREA THE ONLY KOREA!!!"

    You know what I learned from this experience? Nothing.
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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:37 pm

    I love the description.  I think it’s a great contribution to anyone looking to become a great Anor Londo phantom.  Personally, I only use those types of tactics infrequently.  It’s similar to the “bow stunlock Quelaag” tactic.  While it is super efficient and almost ensures safety for the host, it can be very impersonal to the host and not a very good learning experience.

    I appreciate the thanks.  I considered what you're saying in terms of the "good learning experience", but IMO that comes with the territory of online play.  This fight is very winnable, and in fact not even all that hard compared to say 4kings, if one simply stays offline in human form and summons solaire.  Even if you build no weapon and just pick up the crystal halberd at base stats needed to wield it in the treasure chest, you have plenty of damage to kill one of them while solaire distracts the other.

    The way I look at it, if they summoned me for the boss it's safe to assume they want me to not hold back and to help them win over the target of their choice (and assuming otherwise is potentially dangerous).  Also, if they see the pillar trap they could learn it and use it themselves or to help others in the future.

    Also IMO the big difficulties in this fight are:

    1.  Tag team from 2 guys at the start and
    2.  The super version not giving you enough time to heal after being smacked for high damage by a size or lightning boosted attack.

    Very rarely will this fight 1-shot you on regular NG.  Simply by distracting 1 and later giving host breating room vs a super, you are eliminating the vast majority of the difficulty anyway in my opinion, making the difference between poking at O's left (our right) knee or shooting him with magic from behind a pillar somewhat minimal; anything that distracts him and lets the host flask is going to make it MUCH easier on the host...and most guys who summon are either doing it "just because" or because they're genuinely struggling.  Or, at very least, most people who summon aren't looking for a true challenge.


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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:14 pm

    @Djem

    laughing

    Beautiful comeback.  Quick on your feet.

    @TheMeInTeam

    No prob, thank you Bow

    Again, your technique and outlook is marvelous, and it varies from the "one shot" technique that I strongly disagree with.  Your technique, imo, varies greatly in that you are admittedly "chipping away" as opposed to just demolishing a boss.

    The only thing I disagree with is the assumptions under which a host has summoned you.  They might be doing it for fun, in case there's an invader, because they saw something shiny on the ground, or because they expect you to draw agro on the boss.

    I never stunlock Quelaag, pilarlock O & S, or anything of that sort, only because I think its boring and detracts from the experience. Because personally, I don't see a huge difference in leading them around the room efficiently.  It exposes minimal danger to the host, and they should be able to deal with some risk in my opinion.

    However, you could also be completely right in saying a host might expect that as well, in which case my point of view would be something undesirable.

    Again, I'm not putting your preference in the same category of "one shots wonder".  I apologize if that's how it seemed.  There's a big difference in your outlook on O & S, and the people fighting Quelaag with the TCC, CoD, CSS, and BDCR who kill her before the poor girl has a chance to throw up twice. biggrin


    Last edited by Animaaal on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:16 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : BDCR/BDRC)
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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by Green__Eagle on Wed Jun 19, 2013 10:13 pm

    The first guy I summoned was in Demon's Souls, Level 4-1. He was a Monk-wrapped kamikazee who sprinted through the level killing everything. I stood there amazed at my good fortune and then vowed to become that good of a player so I could help others through that nightmare. He died in the tunnel when he got trapped between two skeletons. I was sad.

    Yesterday I took a different approach as a phantom. I let the Host lead through the level (Upper Undead Burg) and it was obvious he was a new player. I would only help him when he would get in trouble and then I would back off to let him lead again.

    I like that style of play better; we were more of a team. I think he enjoyed the experience, too. In fact, I had the thought that I should not use my best equipment when I'm a phantom. Maybe I should use a Hand Axe and Heater Shield so the mob fights lasts longer. It cannot be fun for the host when I can one-shot three guys at once.

    There may be a lot of new players out there; I noticed that Dark Souls is now a "Greatest Hits" release.


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    Re: O & S..from a phantom's perspective

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:56 am

    Again, I'm not putting your preference in the same category of "one shots wonder".  I apologize if that's how it seemed.  There's a big difference in your outlook on O & S, and the people fighting Quelaag with the TCC, CoD, CSS, and BDCR who kill her before the poor girl has a chance to throw up twice.

    Lol wow.  It doesn't surprise me that people do that, but I've never seen it.  Then again, I tend to run through the areas quickly on new characters.  Bow-locking quelag is stupid easy, but similar to O&S fight you can make it really easy offline just by summoning (in this case Mildred) if you want to do that.

    When I first started playing I thought she was pretty hard, but now it's kind of a "strafe + read" and it would be unusual to take a hit even if beating on her with a longsword +5, except maybe the occasional "jump back brief stun that does 15 damage or so".

    I guess I just don't see a major issue; phantoms (either friendly or hostile) are inherently a mixed bag and a host has to know that.  Unless someone hides their CoD, it wouldn't be hard to guess what would happen for example.  I firmly believe that to get the true experience as a first timer in this game, it's best to run all the bosses offline, and only rely on summons for them if you really get stuck (although ironically the really annoying bosses tend not to have summons, or in the 4kings case it can make the fight worse).  That said, not everybody wants to play that way.  Host himself often gives some context, though sometimes it's hard to tell.  Well, I invade more than I coop anyway happy.

    Lol does anybody summon for bed of chaos?  Now THAT's a fight where a twink'd build would have...questionable utility ^_^.


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