PvP Standards

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    xenon_nobelium
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by xenon_nobelium on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:18 pm

    the term tryhard needs to be replaced with "toptier-wh0re". it's less about playstyle than equipment choices imo. there's a huge difference in scumbag behaviour and simply wearing the optimal gear (in most cases 40dex + fap and wolf) and even both of them together. i for example go out there with optimized builds and gear combinations i find strong but limit myself to lvl100 and consider my playstyle pretty laid back (unless something ticks me off). that makes me a toptier-wh0re if anything. so tryhard can't be applied to someone simply because he's sporting effective gear. the way its used implies someone with very strong loadout that uses cheap/dirty/hard to counter tactics...but that player isn't trying, he's doing something that needs at least a bit of knowledge and investment. there needs to be a new term that reflects more the foul morals and is less affiliated with "newbie", because that is how i "correctly" would use the tryhard term: a new player trying its best with a strong loadout that should give the advantage but lacks the execution to utilize it.
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:23 pm

    The term I usually hear used to describe them are '@$$holes.'
    I think we should just drop the label altogether. Stereotypes, true or not, only foster more hostility and resentment.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Cfoofoo on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:47 pm

    I'll formal duel if the other person wants to, and I'll play by the rules (the rules being no healing, let the guy buff, don't take advantage of gestures to backstab/set up, etc.) but as soon as the other guy breaks a rule it's no holds barred.

    If it's not a formal duel, anything goes.  If I invade you and you chug2win I'll be mad, obviously, but I'll get over it and I won't blame you for it, I would've done the same thing in your shoes.  That's my idea of fun.  If we're just dueling that's nice and all but I prefer invasions with stakes.  Exceptions are the most extremely degenerate types of things, triple-ganks and the like.  

    Tryhards, I guess, are operating under a different fun paradigm.  They're people for whom winning is the only objective, period.  You've probably seen this before.  I've fought that in actual games before, I'd consider that kind of gameplay tryhard.  Where your desire to win the fight overtakes your desire to not look like a dingus doing it.  When I die to extreme tryhards my first words are usually "why is this guy even playing" but I guess he just subscribes to a different idea of "fun."

    Also none of this applies if I'm Blue Orb invading as a Darkmoon.  I operate under the presumption that you're a sinner and deserve no mercy or fair play.  I have been known to Tranquil Wrath sinners.
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Leet on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:44 pm

    I wasn't aware people looked down on katanas, but if they do they can keep lookin down because when their corpse is at the end of my sword i'm gonna be the one looking down on them. Anyway, anything goes. Everything is the game was made to be used. Now how you use everything is up to you. One thing that annoys me is when someone bows to me, i bow back and they bs me as i'm bowing. I usually end up catching up with them and chain backstab them just for the lulz because they wanted to play like that. But i never go out looking for a backstab. But if i see someone bs fishing you best believe i'm gonna bs them just because i can tell when someone else is doing it. It really depends on what you're doing. During random invasions anything goes. Well, anything goes period but you know what i'm saying. I like formal duels though. I like testing my skill against an opponent. Not getting bs'd by a naked hornet ringer crystal buffed demon machete bs fisher. Not my cup of tea.

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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by wretchedsausage on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:03 am

    I agree with much of what has already been said. The term 'try-hard' is ridiculous, as is the idea that trying hard should be frowned upon. Regardless of who you are, I do not think that it is an acceptable thing to say.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by O1va_ on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:14 am

    Cfoofoo wrote:Tryhards, I guess, are operating under a different fun paradigm.  They're people for whom winning is the only objective, period.  You've probably seen this before.  I've fought that in actual games before, I'd consider that kind of gameplay tryhard.  Where your desire to win the fight overtakes your desire to not look like a dingus doing it.  When I die to extreme tryhards my first words are usually "why is this guy even playing" but I guess he just subscribes to a different idea of "fun."

    Also none of this applies if I'm Blue Orb invading as a Darkmoon.  I operate under the presumption that you're a sinner and deserve no mercy or fair play.  I have been known to Tranquil Wrath sinners.

    I don't get this at all. It's not only you, but other people too that do this. Why is it ok for you to go as hard as you can when you're playing as DM (or as forest hunter), well you're roleplaying, right? But when someone else does the same to you it's tryhard? Is it cause they were invading as wraiths? Are you having fun when dealing judgement to sinners? Why wouldn't the DW have fun destroying you with most powerfull tactics he can think of? What I mean is why is it different to roleplay as a blue invader than roleplaying as a red one?


    When I die to extreme tryhards my first words are usually "why is this guy even playing" but I guess he just subscribes to a different idea of "fun."

    I have been known to Tranquil Wrath sinners.

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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by VaDoom on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:43 am

    @Cfoofoo You can roleplay as a DW too.
    A DW invades to get your humanity. Is it bad in his opinion? No it's the most logical thing to do. And it's even a good thing, the return of the dark lord might actually be the true solution.
    DM are just other poor humans manipulated by the false gods.
    Killing the hosts without sentiment is good too, DW don't want you to mindlessly link the fire and will try to kill you to prevent that.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by swordiris on Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:08 am

    Cfoofoo wrote:I'll formal duel if the other person wants to, and I'll play by the rules (the rules being no healing, let the guy buff, don't take advantage of gestures to backstab/set up, etc.) but as soon as the other guy breaks a rule it's no holds barred.

    If it's not a formal duel, anything goes.  If I invade you and you chug2win I'll be mad, obviously, but I'll get over it and I won't blame you for it, I would've done the same thing in your shoes.  That's my idea of fun.  If we're just dueling that's nice and all but I prefer invasions with stakes.  Exceptions are the most extremely degenerate types of things, triple-ganks and the like.  

    Tryhards, I guess, are operating under a different fun paradigm.  They're people for whom winning is the only objective, period.  You've probably seen this before.  I've fought that in actual games before, I'd consider that kind of gameplay tryhard.  Where your desire to win the fight overtakes your desire to not look like a dingus doing it.  When I die to extreme tryhards my first words are usually "why is this guy even playing" but I guess he just subscribes to a different idea of "fun."

    Also none of this applies if I'm Blue Orb invading as a Darkmoon.  I operate under the presumption that you're a sinner and deserve no mercy or fair play.  I have been known to Tranquil Wrath sinners.

    Everyone should play to win.

    Even as a Loyal DM I respect a DW who plays to win more than a DM who uses the phrase "tryhard".

    Anyone who plays to win is on the right track to becoming an amazing player regardless of which team they play on; however, if you walk down the play to win road as a DM, don't complain when someone else plays to win.

    Saying it is ok for you to do it and not anyone else is very hypocritical.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:09 pm

    Mmmmm...

    Everyone should "play for fun" and "compete to win" I'd imagine. 

    "Everyone should play to win" is a very intrusive statement imo.

    So is saying,  "playing to win can't be fun".

    I don't like being told how I should play.  The only acceptable commandment is "Thou shall not hack".


    Last edited by Animaaal on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:11 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : grammer/structure)
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by sure-magicians on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:18 pm

    xenon_nobelium wrote:the term tryhard needs to be replaced with "toptier-wh0re". it's less about playstyle than equipment choices imo. there's a huge difference in scumbag behaviour and simply wearing the optimal gear (in most cases 40dex + fap and wolf) and even both of them together. i for example go out there with optimized builds and gear combinations i find strong but limit myself to lvl100 and consider my playstyle pretty laid back (unless something ticks me off). that makes me a toptier-wh0re if anything. so tryhard can't be applied to someone simply because he's sporting effective gear. the way its used implies someone with very strong loadout that uses cheap/dirty/hard to counter tactics...but that player isn't trying, he's doing something that needs at least a bit of knowledge and investment. there needs to be a new term that reflects more the foul morals and is less affiliated with "newbie", because that is how i "correctly" would use the tryhard term: a new player trying its best with a strong loadout that should give the advantage but lacks the execution to utilize it.
    Plus 1


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Djem on Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:37 pm

    Nothing is tryhard. If your opponent casts TWoP, Pursuers and comes at you with a Chaoshander trying to backstab you with Hornet, you adapt to survive. If you lose it simply means you weren't good enough to win at that exact situation.
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Acarnatia on Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:43 pm

    DjemNothing is tryhard. If your opponent casts TWoP, Pursuers and comes at you with a Chaoshander trying to backstab you with Hornet, you adapt to survive. If you lose it simply means you weren't good enough to win at that exact situation. wrote:That's not being 'tryhard'; that's being cheap and mean. The only 'counter' for all that is to run, which isn't always possible.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Jansports on Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:11 pm

    GMB 77 poise and a curved sword.

    LoL at pursuers and the tracking on the speedy curved sword swings makes BSing, even under TwoP almost impossible (at worst you get phantom BSed) the Poise is of course to tank the swing that's likely to happen in place of the BS. I would say just parry its a Zwei but if they're paying any attention at all they'll unlock and dead angle when they realise they aren't getting a BS

    I didn't have to run at all. And I only used one spell, they had to use two.
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:02 am

    xenon_nobelium wrote:a new player trying its best with a strong loadout that should give the advantage but lacks the execution to utilize it.
    This is closer to the way I originally heard the term used.  I think that the UD definition of try-hard explains pretty well what it originally meant (or at least how I heard it used before people in Dark Souls picked it up):

    "A person who puts a large amount of effort into achieving a certain image, or counter-image, to the point where it is obviously contrived. Rather than achieving an image through genuine personality, the try-hard consciously attempts to fit a certain style through deliberate imitation, forced style, or scripted behavior. That is to say, he/she is trying hard to create an image."

    In the context of a more competitive video game, like LoL, SC2, whatever, this would probably include people who imitate top-level players.  Flash uses some particular build, so people copy him without understanding the reasoning behind his build.  When they lose, get criticized, or whatever, they might say, "well Flash uses this build, and I'd say he knows a little bit more about Starcraft than you do, pal."  And that's all they'd be able to say.  Instead of trying to learn and understand the game to the point where they can genuinely play well, they just (poorly) imitate a good player.

    I think how tryhard is typically used in Dark Souls was carried over from more competitive games.  On the surface, the meaning for tryhard in those games is, "somebody who plays top-tier."  So in Dark Souls, if you play top-tier, you get called a tryhard.  That's it.  The actual meaning for tryhard was forgotten long ago and now it means roughly the same thing as calling somebody cheap:  nothing.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Djem on Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:45 am

    Acarnatia wrote:
    Djem wrote:Nothing is tryhard. If your opponent casts TWoP, Pursuers and comes at you with a Chaoshander trying to backstab you with Hornet, you adapt to survive. If you lose it simply means you weren't good enough to win at that exact situation.
    That's not being 'tryhard'; that's being cheap and mean. The only 'counter' for all that is to run, which isn't always possible.

    I don't approve of it, but I've given up trying to push Dark Souls PvP into boundaries it obviously won't ever fit in. 4 out of 5 random invasions you get will be gankers in the Forest. 4 out of 5 random invaders in Township will run away to heal if you are winning as the host. 4 out of 5 people will backstab you while bowing in random PvP. (Warning: These numbers are made up) So you adapt, and counter them. There's no other solution.
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Acarnatia on Thu Jun 20, 2013 3:10 pm

    I agree. I like Dark for exactly that. I'm also saying that there are particular elements, combinations and tactics that are unfair even in this setting and should be fixed or removed in future endeavors.


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