PvP Standards

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    Eko
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    PvP Standards

    Post by Eko on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:28 am

    I know some people, like myself, don't really make any restrictions when it comes to invasions, but for duels will adopt a more formal way of dueling. I have noticed though that katanas are looked down on a fair bit and a lot of people who use them are called tryhards. I am mainly curious why things are called tryhard and what exactly does that mean.

    Also, what things do you consider to be out of bounds for formal duels?


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Encore on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:30 am

    Depends... Usually frowned upon things are chain backstabbing and stunlocks, but it all depends on set up rules and general consensus.

    Also personal preference.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by swordiris on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:34 am

    Eko wrote:I know some people, like myself, don't really make any restrictions when it comes to invasions, but for duels will adopt a more formal way of dueling. I have noticed though that katanas are looked down on a fair bit and a lot of people who use them are called tryhards. I am mainly curious why things are called tryhard and what exactly does that mean.

    Also, what things do you consider to be out of bounds for formal duels?

    Tryhard is just a word scrubs use to describe people who play to win.

    Everything is fine in PVP except hacking.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:35 am

    By my definition, a tryhard is someone who uses something that requires little to no skill to use, yet is very powerful. For example, the Katanas offer good range, fast attacks, bleed, and pretty good damage. While there are good Katana users out there, I'd consider anyone who simply mashes R1 constantly a tryhard.

    Another great example of a tryhard is TWoP + Pursuers.

    Things I'd consider to be out of bounds:
    Backstab fishing
    Hornet Backstabs (I consider a Hornet parry to be perfectly fine)
    Turtling constantly
    Tranquil Walk (including Stone GS R2)
    Parry fishing
    DWGR (while kiting with a spear or rolling R1 mashing with a great hammer)
    Healing
    Using Grass more than once
    Mashing R1

    Mashing R2


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:38 am

    Nothing is tryhard. I honestly don't know where that label came from, but it is offensive.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Eko on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:41 am

    I just find it annoying. I enjoy using katanas and I don't R1 spam ever. So when I get called a tryhard for using a katana it is rather annoying. I have never understood why people label things tryhard. I have found it happens usually when people can't manage to find an answer to a certain weapon or playstyle.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:45 am

    I agree, Eko.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Doctor Snuggles on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:45 am

    Being a "tryhard" means almost nothing to me. It's usually used to insult someone because your build/tactics that you thought were foolproof were beaten by someone doing the simplest thing, like spamming R1 with a buffed weapon.

    Its a defensive retort that sounds dumb in any fashion, so I stick to my key phrases "wut" "whaaaaaaaaaaaat" "I hate lag".
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by shadowzninjaz on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:58 am

    Dibsville wrote:By my definition
    Another great example of a tryhard is TWoP + Pursuers.
    Things I'd consider to be out of bounds:
    Backstab fishing
    Hornet Backstabs (I consider a Hornet parry to be perfectly fine)
    Turtling constantly
    Tranquil Walk (including Stone GS R2)
    Parry fishing
    DWGR (while kiting with a spear or rolling R1 mashing with a great hammer)
    Healing
    I would argee with this i dont like seeing this in duels that r setup but sometimes it still happens n ik what its like getting called a try hard for using a kat but it isnt really a big deal also 2 point out there is a right time 2 know when 2 spam r1 but just seeing people only spamming it is just bad 



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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by swordiris on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:00 am

    Spam is also a word created by scrubs.

    If it works on the opponent it should be abused.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:04 am

    Shadow - please use punctuation in your posts.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:26 am

    The other day I talked to a person who said that BS fishing didn't make you a tryhard, unless you were low on health in which case it did.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Paragon on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:05 am

    I never classify tactics as tryhard. But i do count certain armors or weapons as tryhard. The legend build for example is tryhard imo because people who use it are trying hard to get as much of an advantage as they can. tbh i dont think being "tryhard" is a bad thing, just a thing. Now dont get me wrong, I do think that sometimes trying too hard gets in the way of the main point of a game which is to have fun and not to necessarily win. But i suppose in its own way trying hard can be fun to some people and if it is so be it. No need to tear eachothers throats out, lets all just be pals and kill the **** out of each other.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by GrinTwist on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:09 am

    I only abandon my "rules" if someone heals, parry spams, or fishes for a BS.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Jansports on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:20 am

    I generally don't consider anything off limits for formal duels unless it's been specifically noted not to do/use XXX. If it works it works, if you're smart enough to counter it it doesn't work. And I've yet to see/find a particular tactic that doesn't have a counter.

    "tryhard" is supposed to be inflamatory towards the people that play to win. It's often said by people who're bad and think using intentionally non optimized builds makes them inherrently cooler than people who min max.

    Honestly if someone uses the term tryhard in a serious fashion my opinion of them immediately drops a few notches. There is nothing implicitly wrong with wanting to win, and tailoring your build and play style towards what wins just makes sense if that's what you like.
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Paragon on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:55 am

    exactly jans, that is a great way of wording it. I tip my hat to you


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by jimmyc0341 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:58 am

    Ehhh i don't care what weapon people use. if you wanna invade me and use a kitana or other bleed weapons I'm fine with. I just hate when people(especially invaders) heal, dark magic/combustion spam,bs fish, or gank but even so it's part of the game so i try not to get too bothered but it's hard sometimes i'll admit. no one likes to lose and it's a tough pill to swallow sometimes. There is something that bothers me more than anything else though and that's hackers. They are the definition of "Try-hards" and have poor PvP skills


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by robsthedon on Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:59 am

    A try-hard is what a bad loser calls a winner. If you ain't "trying hard" I don't wanna play you.

    Noting wrong with using katanas, most stylish wepeon in the game.


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:38 am

    Healing - Self explanatory. If my opponent heals, he better have more Divine Blessing than me. I also consider regen effect stacking healing as well and have Mushrooms for these people.
    Glitches - Anything from buffing unbuffable weapons to save modding. This also includes Dead Angles.
    Fakes - Guy bows, we fight, he starts losing, runs away/his friend suddenly jumps in and backstabs you/takes out modded weapon. That kind of thing. It's the part that he pretends to want to fight fair that irks me.
    Laggers - Thos types that have a several second delay when coming to your world and you see them pop up from ground with Pursuers and CMW and then they proceed to warp around the area like a avid Star Trek fan.

    I don't really mind anything else.

    As for myself.
    I currently use Rapier with Shotel/Gold Tracer/ Composite Bow and one of the Crest Shields and Pyro. I play very defensively, so I am often called bored, turtle, coward etc.
    I fight with patience and try to poke any and all mistakes my opponent does and won't think twice about using criticals, or spell spam. Instead of blocking, I prefer to dodge and instead of bs, rely on parrying. Most of the times, I have my shield up to protect me against phantom and lag attacks. Nothing pissess me off more than getting hit by a sword swing that missed me by several meters.

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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Walter_White on Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:00 am

    formal duel:
    buff
    bow
    no healing, no hacking
    bow after fight

    that's it!
    ....strange rules i read here...stunlock and katana is tryhard?
    LOL


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Tolvo on Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:56 am

    I think Tryhard is a wonderful term that is abused to hell and made pointless.  It is a term I use but very sparingly.  Simply put, if someone is trying way too hard to do something.  

    If a buddy says he wants to spar and I summon him, then during the spar with weak weapons he pulls out a Dark Silver Tracer to try and BS me for a quick kill when we were just practicing parry animations I'd call him a tryhard.  Frankly he's doing a bunch of things already wrong in that situation, but essentially he is trying way too hard when we were just practicing something.  That's one of the few occasions I'll use the term try hard.

    In regards to Katana, if a person can parry they can defeat a Katana user.  I say it's a bit over-used of a weapon but I wouldn't call it unfair by any means.  I'd just go, "Great another Katana."  Though personally I see more greatswords than Katana.
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:00 am

    Tolvo wrote:If a buddy says he wants to spar and I summon him, then during the spar with weak weapons he pulls out a Dark Silver Tracer to try and BS me for a quick kill when we were just practicing parry animations I'd call him a tryhard.  Frankly he's doing a bunch of things already wrong in that situation, but essentially he is trying way too hard when we were just practicing something.  That's one of the few occasions I'll use the term try hard.
    I don't think that's a tryhard. That's a douchebag.

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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Acarnatia on Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:15 am

    A lot of people lately bow, then bs me while i'm buffing. There are also a lot of people who fight fairly until they're almost dead and then start estusing. (and they seem to expect me to continue fighting fairly anyways)


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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:48 am

    Tolvo wrote:...I think Tryhard is a wonderful term that is abused to hell and made pointless...

    Excellent point.  I feel the same.

    Some people talk about optimization and "playing to win".  When I see someone wearing the HSWC, Mask of the Mother, Havel's Hands, Dingy Chest, blah blah blah, etc etc etc....I know I'm in for the most boring, side-strafing, do-si-do duel available in the game.

    I don't see what's so wrong with "trying hard" to win.  Likewise, don't understand what's so wrong with admitting it either.  Then of course there's the people that admit it like they are the first ones to realize the potential of that/those set up/s.  I mean anyone who's ever taken pvp at least semi-seriously has that build.  We all have the "DMB/falchion", the "Pursuer/CSS", the "Wolf/katana".  It's nothing new.

    Then there's the "Mule Griefers".  I mean wtf?!?!  And don't get me started on the "Mule Ganker Griefers".  What I don't understand is the lack of metaphors and themes.  You're gonna gank?!?!  Why not fist weapons?  Say it out loud...."Fisting Ganker Duo"  "Fisting Ganker Duo" "Fisting Ganker Duo!!!!"...

    ...it just sounds awesome.cheers

    Personally, I wouldn't be caught dead wearing that stuff.  I've been phantoming with this build in lower Blighttown: "Master Painter"

    I use the BDCR in place of the RR in new games, and also swap out for the moonlight arrows.  It's extremely effective, I can deal good damage without being "op'd", and I...look....FABULOUS....cool

    *edit*

    I also refuse to do that "bow stun lock" thing to Quelaag.
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    Re: PvP Standards

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:22 am

    reim0027 wrote:
    Nothing is tryhard. I honestly don't know where that label came from, but it is offensive.

    It isn't though.  There is nothing fundamentally wrong with trying one's best in gaming.  I find that the term is used in a deragotory manner to be more offensive.

    Really it's a term used to describe people who spam things that become overcentralized within a given game.  Because of that, it is a ubiquitous term in competitive MP gaming, to the point of usage in every single online MP game I've played.

    I have a friend who agrees with me that the particular terminology is stupid.  I will often accuse him of being a "DoWell" when someone starts busting out the tryhard argument big grin.  Obviously dowells differentiate themselves from tryhards via success, although they are not theoretically mutually exclusive.

    I must say, however, that seeing the same things repeatedly does get boring and it does kill immersion in games where 1-3 choices out of potentially dozens or more become so dominant that they're over half of what you see.

    Tryhard is mostly a terminology error.  What people are really saying is that seeing the same stuff over and over is tiresome.  I make a lot of troll builds here for fun that are "tryhard" in that sense, but only 1 of my 5 characters (this after losing my old xbox hard drive) even owns giants armor big grin.  A different term would probably capture the sentiment better.  That said, ultimately the usage of these builds is not the fault of the player, but rather of the game's balance.  A truly well-balanced game would not have such strong tiering such that only a handful of a myriad of options become competitively viable.  Despite dark magic and the greater benefit in dex over str, Dark Souls as a game is actually not that bad in terms of overcentralization...if only because the game is unforgiving enough that screwing up vs virtually anybody with a competent build is deadly.

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