A question about the Abyss

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    A question about the Abyss

    Post by Sock on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:25 pm

    Something that's always been bugging my mind:

    You need the Covenant or Artorias (The ring) in order to traverse the Abyss and fight the four kings.

    But you Don't need the ring in order to traverse the very same Abyss and fight Manus.

    All lore-sources say that the abyss that Manus is spreading, and the Abyss the four kings are in, is the very same Abyss.

    Actually, Artorias has according to lore-sources throughout the game traversed the Abyss with his ring when New Londo fell, and Then traveled to Oolacile to fight Manus in his Abyss.

    Are these the same Abysses? Or is the Four Kings-Abyss the 'real' Abyss, while the Manus-Abyss is just called the Abyss because it's very dark, very big, and very corruptive?
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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Encore on Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:32 pm

    It is a myth born from hearsay and stories. My theory is that he had a normal ring that got corrupted by the abyss when he got corrupted..

    They are the same abyss, but it has not spread enough and for a long time when you fight Manus.

    There are places that still are fully dark and developed abyss, like outside the walls in the arena where you fight Manus and quite a few other places.

    The four kings got corrupted when the abyss continued to spread, but it is the same abyss, just more developed.

    We, are the canon person that traveled the abyss and slaughtered Manus. A lot of the stories are us but twisted by people to fit in with the (To them) great hero Artorias.

    There is a lore problem with the ring thing, but I think it was that he wore a ring, a normal one, that got corrupted when he was torn by the abyss, and that it got corrupted and retrieved by Sif.

    But the description says that

    "This ring symbolizes Knight Artorias's
    covenant with the beasts of the Abyss. It's wearer, like Artorias himself, can
    traverse the Abyss."

    It never says that the ring is the ring of Artorias himself. I think that, as it is believed that he conquered the Father of the Abyss, Manus and therefore is a symbol of conquering the abyss, they crafted the ring to his honour.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by skarekrow13 on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:54 am

    There's a simpler answer actually. When you fight four kings you're walking over nothingness. 

     When you fight Manus, you're walking on....you know, ground

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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Encore on Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:55 am

    skarekrow13 wrote:There's a simpler answer actually. When you fight four kings you're walking over nothingness. 

     When you fight Manus, you're walking on....you know, ground

    The ground dissipated later, becoming nothingness.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by A Fierce Plankton on Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:48 pm

    Yes, the abyss in new londo is old and seems to be at a very late stage, being an infinite darkness. The abyss at Oolacile is relatively new is is still being spread by Manus when the Chosen Undead arrives. You don't need to use the ring because darkness still haven't consumed all solid ground there.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Paragon on Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:15 pm

    Well for one thing after you kill Manus, the ground is still there so whoever said it disappears is unfortunately wrong. So that cant be it. Planktons suggestion sounds possible but it is pure speculation.

    What ISN'T speculation however is that when you fight the Four Kings you stand atop pure darkness but when you fight manus you are standing on the ground in a dark cave. This isnt really an issue where speculation need be involved because there is a logical (and rather obvious mind you) explanation for why you need the ring in one boss fight and not the other.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Encore on Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:20 pm

    Paragon wrote:Well for one thing after you kill Manus, the ground is still there so whoever said it disappears is unfortunately wrong. So that cant be it. Planktons suggestion sounds possible but it is pure speculation.

    What ISN'T speculation however is that when you fight the Four Kings you stand atop pure darkness but when you fight manus you are standing on the ground in a dark cave. This isnt really an issue where speculation need be involved because there is a logical (and rather obvious mind you) explanation for why you need the ring in one boss fight and not the other.

    I meant that the ground dissipates over time as the abyss developed, over many years, not goes away directly after the fight.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Sock on Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:53 pm

    I want to take up a couple of things then:

    One: Yes, you stand ontop of nothing when fighting the Four Kings, because you're in the abyss. And you fight against Manus on solid ground, yes. But you Still fight Manus in the Abyss. That's where my question was born from, Paragon.

    Two: Quote from this very site: "When in New Londo, Artorias discovered the ability of abysswalking, which gave him the name Artorias the Abysswalker and allowed him to enter the home of the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings themselves."
    Since he Died in Oolacile, he must've been able to traverse the Abyss in New Londo before Manus' uprising. But considering Manus' subtitle is "Father of the Abyss", and for the fact that it is mentioned several times that the Abyss started spreading when Manus woke up, the only thing I can conclude is that the Abyss in New Londo is a 'real' Abyss, with nothingness everywhere around you, while the Abyss that happened in Oolacile was just dark sorcery and humanity spiraling way out of control.

    I can honestly see no other explanation then that >.>
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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Encore on Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:57 pm

    Sock wrote:I want to take up a couple of things then:

    One: Yes, you stand ontop of nothing when fighting the Four Kings, because you're in the abyss. And you fight against Manus on solid ground, yes. But you Still fight Manus in the Abyss. That's where my question was born from, Paragon.

    Two: Quote from this very site: "When in New Londo, Artorias discovered the ability of abysswalking, which gave him the name Artorias the Abysswalker and allowed him to enter the home of the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings themselves."
    Since he Died in Oolacile, he must've been able to traverse the Abyss in New Londo before Manus' uprising. But considering Manus' subtitle is "Father of the Abyss", and for the fact that it is mentioned several times that the Abyss started spreading when Manus woke up, the only thing I can conclude is that the Abyss in New Londo is a 'real' Abyss, with nothingness everywhere around you, while the Abyss that happened in Oolacile was just dark sorcery and humanity spiraling way out of control.

    I can honestly see no other explanation then that >.>

    Ehh... They are the same, just differently developed stages.

    Oolacile and New Londa are located in very close proximity.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Paragon on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:56 pm

    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
    Paragon wrote:Well for one thing after you kill Manus, the ground is still there so whoever said it disappears is unfortunately wrong. So that cant be it. Planktons suggestion sounds possible but it is pure speculation.

    What ISN'T speculation however is that when you fight the Four Kings you stand atop pure darkness but when you fight manus you are standing on the ground in a dark cave. This isnt really an issue where speculation need be involved because there is a logical (and rather obvious mind you) explanation for why you need the ring in one boss fight and not the other.

    I meant that the ground dissipates over time as the abyss developed, over many years, not goes away directly after the fight
    .


    There is no evidence that supports this. And since the player never revisits the Chasm of the Abyss later there is no way to know what happens to it.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Paragon on Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:59 pm

    Sock wrote:I want to take up a couple of things then:

    One: Yes, you stand ontop of nothing when fighting the Four Kings, because you're in the abyss. And you fight against Manus on solid ground, yes. But you Still fight Manus in the Abyss. That's where my question was born from, Paragon.

    Two: Quote from this very site: "When in New Londo, Artorias discovered the ability of abysswalking, which gave him the name Artorias the Abysswalker and allowed him to enter the home of the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings themselves."
    Since he Died in Oolacile, he must've been able to traverse the Abyss in New Londo before Manus' uprising. But considering Manus' subtitle is "Father of the Abyss", and for the fact that it is mentioned several times that the Abyss started spreading when Manus woke up, the only thing I can conclude is that the Abyss in New Londo is a 'real' Abyss, with nothingness everywhere around you, while the Abyss that happened in Oolacile was just dark sorcery and humanity spiraling way out of control.

    I can honestly see no other explanation then that >.>

    If you had already come to this conclusion why did you ask the question? Unless you either werent sure, wanted a second opinion, or wanted confirmation. If you simply wanted confirmation i can understand that but in the future i implore that you not ask questions you already have an answer to if you only intend to argue with the answers you get.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Encore on Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:04 pm

    Paragon wrote:
    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
    Paragon wrote:Well for one thing after you kill Manus, the ground is still there so whoever said it disappears is unfortunately wrong. So that cant be it. Planktons suggestion sounds possible but it is pure speculation.

    What ISN'T speculation however is that when you fight the Four Kings you stand atop pure darkness but when you fight manus you are standing on the ground in a dark cave. This isnt really an issue where speculation need be involved because there is a logical (and rather obvious mind you) explanation for why you need the ring in one boss fight and not the other.

    I meant that the ground dissipates over time as the abyss developed, over many years, not goes away directly after the fight
    .


    There is no evidence that supports this. And since the player never revisits the Chasm of the Abyss later there is no way to know what happens to it.

    You are correct with that, I am only saying that for me that is the rational conclusion. Either way they are the same abyss.

    I understand in hindsight that I should have said that it was my own hypothesis.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Sock on Thu Jun 20, 2013 6:54 am

    Paragon wrote:
    Sock wrote:I want to take up a couple of things then:

    One: Yes, you stand ontop of nothing when fighting the Four Kings, because you're in the abyss. And you fight against Manus on solid ground, yes. But you Still fight Manus in the Abyss. That's where my question was born from, Paragon.

    Two: Quote from this very site: "When in New Londo, Artorias discovered the ability of abysswalking, which gave him the name Artorias the Abysswalker and allowed him to enter the home of the Darkwraiths and the Four Kings themselves."
    Since he Died in Oolacile, he must've been able to traverse the Abyss in New Londo before Manus' uprising. But considering Manus' subtitle is "Father of the Abyss", and for the fact that it is mentioned several times that the Abyss started spreading when Manus woke up, the only thing I can conclude is that the Abyss in New Londo is a 'real' Abyss, with nothingness everywhere around you, while the Abyss that happened in Oolacile was just dark sorcery and humanity spiraling way out of control.


    I can honestly see no other explanation then that >.>

    If you had already come to this conclusion why did you ask the question? Unless you either werent sure, wanted a second opinion, or wanted confirmation. If you simply wanted confirmation i can understand that but in the future i implore that you not ask questions you already have an answer to if you only intend to argue with the answers you get.


    Because I didn't have an oppinion when I started. After posting this, and reading some of the responses, I really came to the conclusion at the same time as I was writing. I apologize if it seemed unnecessary for me to write about it here in the first place then, but I really didn't have a clue before it >.>
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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Dibsville on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:15 am

    You are on solid ground during the Manus fight, although the abyssal powers do keep you from going too far in the area. You literally stand on the embodiment of the abyss during the Four Kings fight.

    Big difference.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Sock on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:42 am

    Dibsville wrote:You are on solid ground during the Manus fight, although the abyssal powers do keep you from going too far in the area. You literally stand on the embodiment of the abyss during the Four Kings fight.

    Big difference.

    But it Is stated that you do fight Manus Inside the Abyss.
    Or am I missing something?
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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Dibsville on Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:44 am

    You fight Manus inside the abyss, you are literally standing on top of the abyss during the Four Kings fight.

    There's a big difference between being surrounded by something and literally standing on it.

    Think of it like water. You can move through it freely, but if you stand on it you're going to be consumed.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:13 am

    Have you jumped into the Four Kings Abyss without the ring?  You'll understand the difference if you have.  The ring isn't a ticket to get into the Abyss.  Anyone can jump in anytime they want.  The ring is for granting movement while in the Abyss.  The Manus fight has ground like I stated before.  So no ring is needed.  Dibs' water comparison is excellent.  Anyone can jump in the water but only one guy walked on it.  I don't know if he used a ring though.  

    Another way to think about it is the difference between "encroaching" and "established."  The Four Kings fight is an established pocket of Abyss that's been sealed by water (mythological theories support this concept to a large extent).  THAT Abyss has been eating away at what it can for centuries most likely so there's nothing left.  Manus' Abyss is fairly recent.  It's begun eating at the world but hasn't had as much time. In both cases the Abyss appears to be tied to a host or hosts that give it a will or goal.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Sock on Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:15 am

    skarekrow13 wrote:Have you jumped into the Four Kings Abyss without the ring?  You'll understand the difference if you have.  The ring isn't a ticket to get into the Abyss.  Anyone can jump in anytime they want.  The ring is for granting movement while in the Abyss.  The Manus fight has ground like I stated before.  So no ring is needed.  Dibs' water comparison is excellent.  Anyone can jump in the water but only one guy walked on it.  I don't know if he used a ring though.  

    Another way to think about it is the difference between "encroaching" and "established."  The Four Kings fight is an established pocket of Abyss that's been sealed by water (mythological theories support this concept to a large extent).  THAT Abyss has been eating away at what it can for centuries most likely so there's nothing left.  Manus' Abyss is fairly recent.  It's begun eating at the world but hasn't had as much time. In both cases the Abyss appears to be tied to a host or hosts that give it a will or goal.

    Alright, that makes sense. The second one, that is. So basically, both are the same kind of Abyss in different stages of their evolution, but they're not literally the same one then.

    Thanks ^^
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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Soul of Stray Demon on Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:22 pm

    And after you beat the four kings, you can walk on the abyss without the ring. So it may be something they are doing?

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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Encore on Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:37 pm

    I think it may be for gameplay purposes.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Djem on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:12 pm

    I like the idea that Covenant of Artorias was just a normal ring (or with a different magical property) Artorias was wearing while he was defeated in Oolacile, thus becoming corrupted by the Abyss along with him. This seems likely since from what we have seen Artorias never served the Abyss by choice.

    Also, why do people think Artorias ever visited New Londo? In which item is this explained?
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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Encore on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:17 pm

    New Londo is in close proximity to Oolacile, and since he went there, they make a myth that he went there, in order to let "The abysswalker" legend live on

    At least that is what I think.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:18 pm

    Geographically, both Abyss' are in the same area.


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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Djem on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:29 pm

    Yes, but as far as we know Artorias had nothing to do with Kaathe, his Darkwraiths, or the Four Kings, right? We can assume that the only Abyss Artorias had to deal with was before the fall of New Londo.
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    Re: A question about the Abyss

    Post by Dibsville on Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:31 pm

    Lore-wise, he had something to do with Kaathe, but I'm too tired to remember what it was.

    Just off the top of my head, Kaathe wanted Artorias to become a Darkwraith. But I don't recall Arty having a connection to the Four Kings. His sword was imbued with the power to do more damage to Darkwraiths, however.


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