How to Even the Odds

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    Poll

    Do you Gank People?

    [ 3 ]
    6% [6%] 
    [ 10 ]
    19% [19%] 
    [ 1 ]
    2% [2%] 
    [ 5 ]
    10% [10%] 
    [ 33 ]
    63% [63%] 

    Total Votes: 52
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    Tolvo
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    How to Even the Odds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:19 am

    How to Even the Odds

    The purpose of the poll is to get an anonymous sort of feedback on how many people gank without letting others point fingers and get angry about people who do.  While ganking is generally considered negative behavior gankers are still people.

    Now, the purpose of this thread will be to create a sort of guide on how to fight more than one player at once, tips, tricks, useful builds and weapons for doing it.  I will be going over environments and how to use them, mob types and how to use them, spells, everything I can think of throughout the thread.

    What is Ganking?

    Ganking is a term used generally in gaming for having an unfair advantage while fighting someone, note that in some games the term is actually not used negatively.  In MMO's it may mean using a high level character to kill people who are low levels.  In MOBA style games it can mean ambushing a singled out player by yourself or with a team, in MOBA games it is just considered a standard tactic.  In Dark Souls the term Ganking refers to the act of intentionally trying to fight players online with a numbers advantage.  Note this can mean, as an invader waiting in a world until another invader comes in to back you up, or as a host sitting around with summons waiting for an invader to use numbers to kill them.  Hosts, summons, and invaders can Gank.  Commonly it is heavily frowned upon.  Another thing to take note of is that simply teaming up with other people is not to be considered Ganking.  For example if you have summoned people to help you kill a boss and then you get invaded, ganging up on the invader is for the purpose of survivability and is widely accepted as fine behavior.  


    Last edited by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:58 am; edited 2 times in total
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    Tactics

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:20 am

    Tactics

    Finding a Host/Summon

    Finding an Invader

    Backstabbing

    Parrying


    Throwing Item Bait - A very simple yet effective trick, throwing something at close range.  Talismans, dung pies and poison throwing knives generally cause the most annoyance in the enemy.  The trick involves being close enough that if they started a running attack, they could hit you.  Throw the item, and as soon as you see them start moving towards you parry.  People fall for this all the time, they'll go for the attack thinking you simply made a mistake.  Generally use this if one is closer to you, if you see a catalyst or crossbow out do not attempt this.  They can likely hit you as you attempt the parry.  Take not of what weapon they are using as well, spears and scythes will still be difficult to parry even when they are being used locked on.  The Murakumo can be a similarly problematic weapon.

    Chain Stab Counter - Typically when dealing with multiple people there will be a lot of backstabs going on.  However being backstabbed yourself can easily mean a swift death is coming, often people will attempt chain stabs.  If you see a Talisman or Pyromancy glove out just try to roll away.  But, if it seems like they are going to try and counter backstab do not lock on.  Instead walk in the direction that they are standing at, and instantly parry then go for a Riposte.  Kick into chainstab is common, but kicks will not knock you back either if you parry them.  It is important to go for the riposte as quickly as possible, the critical animation will make you invulnerable for a bit giving you more time to plan an escape away.  Generally people will wait for a backstab behind you, but some may pick up and decide to just kick you away.  If they go for a backstab rinse and repeat until they learn.  If they go for a kick, now is your chance to attempt an escape.



    Spacing

    Stamina Consumption


    Last edited by Tolvo on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:23 am; edited 5 times in total
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    Environments

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:21 am

    Environments


    General Environments


    Funnels

    Tight Areas

    Obstacles

    Ledges

    Corners

    Guardless Bridges

    Stairs/Slopes

    Ladders

    Flat Open Ground

    Mobs


    Undead Burg


    Undead Parish


    Depths


    Upper Blight Town


    Lower Blight Town


    Sen's Fortress


    Anor Londo


    Painted World


    Darkroot Woods


    New Londo


    Demon Ruins


    Izalith


    Catacombs


    Tomb of the Giants


    Kiln


    Royal Woods


    Township

    Oolacile Abyss


    Arena


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    Builds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:22 am

    Builds


    Weapons 


    Range

    Pike, Demon Spear, Moonlight Butterfly Horn, Silver Knight Spear, Composite Bow, Dragonslayer Bow, Gough's Bow, Avelyn, Dragonslayer Spear.

    Dead Angles

    Great Scythe, Murakumo, Claymore, Man-Serpent Sword, Zweihander, Greatsword, Demon Great Machete, Flamberge, Great Lord Greatsword, Gravelord Sword, Moonlight Greatsword, Obsidian Greatsword, Server, Lifehunt Scythe.

    Stunlock

    Shotel, Falchion, Gold Tracer, Bandit's Knife, Dagger.

    Bleed

    Gold Tracer, Bandit's Knife, Priscilla's Dagger, Great Scythe, Lifehunt Scythe, Flamberge, Chaos Blade, Uchigatana.

    Multi-Hit

    Great Scythe, Lifehunt Scythe, Murakumo, Claymore, Flamberge, Man-Serpent Sword, Great Lord Greatsword, Moonlight Greatsword, Obsidion Greatsword, Demon Great Machete, Greatsword, Zweihander.

    High Damage

    Demon Greataxe, Murakumo, Demon Great Machete, Greatsword, Zweihander, Moonlight Greatsword, Great Club.

    Critical

    Dark Silver Tracer, Rapier(Elemental), Bandit's Knife(Elemental), Demon Greataxe, Greataxe(Elemental), Gargoyle Halberd(Elemental), 

    Spells


    Nuking

    Crystal Soul Spear -

    Pursuers -

    Crystal Homing Soul Mass

    Great Fireball -



    AoE

    Fire Tempest -

    Gravelord Greatsword Dance -

    Toxic Mist/Pois Mist -




    Buffs

    Sunlight Blade/Darkmoon Blade/Crystal Magic Weapon -

    TwoP -

    Strong Magic Shield -

    Great Magic Barrier -

    Flash Sweat -

    Vow of Silence -

    Karmic Justice -

    Power Within -

    Iron Flesh -

    Fall Control -

    Chameleon -

    Close Quarters


    Great Combustion -

    Black Flame -

    Dark Bead -

    WotG -

    Force -

    Fire Whip -

    Armor


    Poise


    Defense


    Light Weight

    Rings

    Havel's -

    Ring of Favor and Protection -

    Hornet's Ring -

    Darkwood Grain Ring -

    Red Tearstone Ring -

    Wolf Ring -

    Leo Ring -

    Cloranthy Ring -

    Bellowing Dragoncrest Ring -

    Lingering Dragoncrest Ring -

    Ring of Fog -

    Inventory


    Humanity -

    Dung Pies -

    Resins -

    Green Blossom -

    Blooming Purple Moss Clump -

    Silver Pendant -


    Full Builds





    Last edited by Tolvo on Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:35 am; edited 7 times in total
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    Teaming Up

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:23 am

    Teaming Up


    Summoning for Help


    Waiting for Help


    Fighting Alongside Friendlies(Fellow Whites, Golds, and Blues)


    Fighting Alongside Neutral Parties(Reds, Anyone else as Red)


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    Resources

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:31 am

    Resources


    Threads


    Wiki Pages


    Videos


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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Dibsville on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:02 am

    I do gank very rarely but only because I need the souls and I don't trust my phantoms with 1v1's (which is what I usually do, host 1v1's).


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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:04 am

    I should also mention, no fighting about the morality of ganking here, I will swiftly bring in the mods if I see it.  Saying why you gank openly is fine.  Personally I'm always interested in the mentality behind why people do certain things in a game, so if people do explain why they gank I'm always willing to read it to try and get a better understanding.

    In general though, this thread is going to be simply about how to fight against numbers and more specifically gankers.
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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:18 am

    I found the section on Environments to be very insightful.


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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:20 am

    Indeed, many people forget there is an Upper Blight Town.
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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:23 am

    Since there is literally no content, here is lesson 0: backstab frequently.


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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:23 am

    Nice idea Tolvo +1.

    Well put as well.  Thank you for defining "gank".  It made the poll answer easy for me.

    However, the only gank tactics I can give advice towards would be from a hosting in Darkroot Forest perspective.  Although it might be a slightly different point of view, some of the principles would remain the same I would imagine.

    -Toggle Lock Spacing

    *I would say this technique has helped me immensely when getting ganked in the forest.  Switching between your targets aggressively can really throw someone off.  It's also nice for maximizing you angles when rolling away from a gank when trying to  create space and avoid backstabs or spams.

    -Toggle Lock Parry

    *This is different in that you are intentionally going to toggle and step into the attack for a parry and ignore spacing for dealing maximum crit damage to your opponent and enjoying the I-frames that come along with it.

     If someone is spamming attacks from your flank just outside of their reach, try this.  It is pretty much a sight parry, and a lot of people will walk right into it.

    -DWGR and Stamina Stacking

    *I know the extra I-frames are not much per roll in comparison, but add that up over 5-8 rolls and the extra distance you can cover, and its a deadly combo.

    -Divine Blessings/Elizabeth Mushrooms

    *Quick heals no matter how you look at it.  Its a tactic to be used sparingly (in most cases), but still warrants a mention.


    Anywho, thanks a lot for making this one Tolvo.  I look forward to learning a few things as it develops. Bow
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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:29 am

    Trust me Saint, I'm going to have a good deal on Backstabbing since Backstabs are one of the most effective ways to deal with Gankers.  I'll probably link your thread on Backstabbing in the Resource section as well, and thank you Animaal.  If people think they know something I don't feel free to post it.  More information on how to deal with Gankers is better.  Just remember the rules of the forum.
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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:42 am

    I've never teamed up with another person to farm invaders because it seems incredibly boring to me, having a numbers advantage in a souls game is like having one in a boxing match; incredibly unfair. 

    The strongest tactic for dealing with gankers is a riposte with a buffed Str weapon with the Hornet ring (try to estus away 2450 damage ripostes) but the easiest one is probably backstabbing, especially switching targets. Act like you're fighting one, then when the other comes in, usually for a bs, switch targets and bs the other. Poise helps for tanking a phantom's hit while you bs the host, and another good tactic is to have a spear and a crit weapon in the right hand. Play the defensive roll turtle with the spear, then switch to the crit weapon when the enemy rushes you. Before they can react, which usually takes some time for them to go back on the defensive, bs one of them, preferably the host so that your damage isn't negated by the estus before the phantom gets up. 

    You can also just TWoP and dead angle WoG/Fire tempest with Power Within on. That tends to get the job done if the gank doesn't see it coming from a mile away.


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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:45 am

    You can't cast Power Within with TwoP, both are self buffs.
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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Ghadis_God on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:48 am

    Oh really? Huh, I never knew that, I thought TWoP was outside the buff classifications of body/weapon.


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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 5:50 am

    Nope it counts, generally it doesn't last long enough for people to really notice though.  Crown, plus Bellowing Ring should easily let you hit hard anyway.

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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:03 am

    Saturday-Saint wrote:Since there is literally no content, here is lesson 0:  backstab frequently.

    Then should fast rolling be lesson -1?silly

     I mean there is really no way to separately define anti-ganking backstabs and regular backstabs.  Players already learn to do this with mobs in pve.  The principles do not change when encountering gankers.

    Sure there are separate techniques that make someone decent at backstabs and countering them, but I fail to see how those mechanics change when encountering a gank squad.

    The toggle spacing technique I mentioned or the way Ghadis put it is sufficient I would imagine.


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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:14 am

    Nice idea Tolvo.

    As for me, I don't gank. I tried fighting with a friend by letting the invader pick one of us to fight, while the other watched, but a lot of invaders just got greedy and attacked us both. :/

    Never tried anything like that again.

    Tactics huh?
    I'm a sort of stupid when it comes to ganks I guess. I try to use the enviroment to my advantage. Not only mobs, but areas where I can't be surrounded, such as narrow paths and bridges. Trying to kick them off a ledge and so on.
    If that fails, it's a backstab fest. Since I main a Rapier, I can't really trade blows with gankers, especially since most of them uses Str weapons and spells. 
    Being fast is very importnant, because you have to move a round a lot. You can't really block two, or three players, so evasion and offence is your best bet. Kill them before they kill you sort of approach.

    I have a anti-gank forest build. 45 Dex, 50 Faith with 9 casts of WoG, Dusk Crown and Ring of Sun's Firstborn. I usually cast PW if I can to get extra damage and SLB on my Falchion. As a second ring, I switch between Hornet and Red Tearstone. With the buffs, WoG does around 700-800 damage and with RTSR active it does around 1100-1200. It's really great to deal with gankers, since it can hit all of them.

    Using a min/maxed buid, focused on max damage is a great way to deal with gankers, since you will outdamage them in most cases. Unlike you, they remain in the host's world without being able to replenish their spells, so you can go trigger happy. Also, most gankers have no form of plan, strategy and usually don't even have skills, so it's quite easy to use this against them.

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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:36 am

    First off I don't know who has down-repped you but that's just ludicrous. This thread is a great source of knowledge. Given you a +1 to even things up happy 

    Secondly; I have never and will never gank in any game, especially Souls games - the thrill of a victory against tougher odds is better than PVE and only comparable to a 3-hour triathlon


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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:42 am

    Well as I mentioned, in somce games ganking is simply a must do.  Like MOBA's such as League of legend, they are team based games and catching someone out of position and using your team to your advantage is a way to turn a match around.  MOBA's are essentially the prime example I can think of when it comes to ganking in a positive light, since they're team based games.
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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:51 am

    I agree with Tolvo. For example, in RFO, there was a story related quest that had you kill several players from one of the other races. Most people just went to a neutral area, where random PvP is allowed and camped quest locations for low levels. You either had to beg someone high level to get rid of the camper, or wait till they log off. That's super wrong.

    In Souls, the fights between players are usually even and the only difference are their respective PvP skills. However, thanks to that, it is still possible to defeat any opponent. Even with basic weapon, is possible to defeat max lvl player. Not talking about trading blows, but you can bleed the guy, or kick him from a ledge, lure him into mobs and more.

    That's what I love about Souls and gankers have yet to learn.
    Skill is more important than numbers in here.

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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:13 am

    I have a lot to say about ganking, mainly how to fight when out numbered. But I'm a bit sleepy already and probably wont cover as much as I could so I'll post more tomorrow.

    How to tackle being outnumbered is perhaps where your build becomes rather important. Since a lot of succeeding against multiple opponents requires clever use of your skills, and what skills you have available are determined by your build.

    Of everything Builds with Faith I feel have to easiest time against Squads. WoG is a super powerful tool in any pvp situation and it's ability to hit many targets, from many angles is unmatched. In addition WoG allows for tickstabs, which are (as has been mentioned) a great way to approach a fight because of the immunity you get while performing one. In addition many of the popular faith spells will function against many targets. GMB will stop any number of peoples CSSes from killing you quickly. VoS effects the entire area. TwoP also effects an area (and is a good deterrent against being surrounded if you have time to cast it) Replenishment is a little bland feeling compared to the others but if the fight drags on (as it often will) it's worth a good bit of health. The Gravelord Dances are not as reliable in my experience as fire tempest, but they do cover a nice sized area.

    Int spells are a little bit less well off. Not too many of them will effect a large area, but they still can be good tools for keeping people off of you. Dark Bead is notoriously strong up close, and actually at mid range covers a decent sized cone. Strong Magic Shield will actually allow most shields to block two+ peoples worth of attacks without your stamina draining faster than theirs. Having HCSM or Pursuers up and running about unlocked, when the spell activates it will occupy whomever it targeted for a moment giving you breathing room to focus your attention on the other guy(s)

    Pyromancy is somewhere in the middle in terms of raw effectiveness, dependent of course on the Chaos  spells. The lingering Fire from Chaos pyromancy is a great way to create space opponents can't be in, and if you can control where they are well you wont find yourself in a bad way surrounded. All of the Chaos spells are good to use but firestorm is perhaps the most notable, as it effects a huge area and does considerable damage.

    I guess in Summation of this post I'd say that A big factor I've found in multi-target PvP is how well you control space. If you have the ability to say "no you cannot be here/there" it becomes much harder for people to surround of overwhelm you, as you can isolate targets with good spacial manipulation. A lot of this is also dependent on things like the area, pillars/trees, ledges, narrows spaces. Using the environment along with any spells you have at your disposal (or weapon special attacks such as the DKGA or Moonlight's explosions) Will increase your rate of survival quite a bit.
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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Tolvo on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:29 am

    Very good stuff Jan, and I was planning to add a lot of that but it's good to have someone else's version of it as well in the thread.  Another useful Miracle, Force.  It is one of the greatest escape tools, since you can knock away three people then run to a better fighting position, not to mention how many casts it has.
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    Re: How to Even the Odds

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:34 am

    ^21 happy  always good for low level backup


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