The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

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    The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by SadPanda on Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:44 am

    From what I can think of off of the top of my head, the spear movesets are horrendous in both Demon's and Dark Souls. The only exceptions being some unique spears, the Partizan and SKS; everything else is just mediocre. So I propose a new twist on offensive capabilities while blocking, and how it can be viable yet fair.

    Before I start, I think that spears and rapiers should have respective properties. Spears should be perfectly fine to use from behind a greatshield, but from behind a buckler? Vice versa for rapiers. Thus furthering the incentives of using greatshields in PvE or PvE. Same as with small shields and rapiers.

    So here's my five-step plan to make spears better:

    Step 1: Nerf the R1 speed from behind the shield.
    My main gripe about this is that in some cases somebody can hit twice in one second with a weapon with an AR of 400, with no risk. Most people that do utilize the spear/shield mechanics get backstabbed to death, and generally I think it's a bad mechanic. Therefore, nerfing the speed, but allowing for better tracking and increased blockstun would make it a balanced, yet efficient way to fight from behind a shield.

    Step 2: Allow for a Ricard's rapier type attack when R2 is used from behind a shield.
    The whole thing about Ricard's rapier is that the damage is mediocre with single hits. But the R2 can deal 100's of damage in the blink of an eye. Something like that, but with increased stamina consumption, and just the two opening hits would be a great way to give incentive for being a more defensive player. Every playstyle should be able to be on par with others, and this would give a more patient defensive player an edge.

    Step 3: Give spears a decent moveset.
    Most spears movesets are complete ***, and the incentives of R2 vs. two-three R1's make them all the more inferior. Thus proposing as said above, a Ricard's rapier style attack, or even something like the Dragonslayer spear 2nd R2. Giving it viable damage output, and proper knockback effect for a risky R2. 

    Step 4: Spears aren't always for poking.
    Take in account the movie 300. I use this as an example because it's a well known movie, and it shows the diverse utility of spears. However in Dark Souls, spears are limited to a couple slightly different pokes. This is perhaps why I enjoy the SKS and the Partizan so much.

    Step 5: Nerf the speed overall.
    At least with 1HR1's and somewhat balanced with 2HR1's. Try taking a long broom stick one day when you have a chance, now go ahead and duct tape a 5-10 pound dumbbell to the end and try poking a couple times. Yeah, it's harder than it looks. Sure Dark Souls is a fantasy RPG, but realistically, it takes a hell of a lot of work to use spears like they are used In Dark Souls.

    What do you guys think will improve or balance spears?


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Jun 14, 2013 2:44 pm

    spears were generally unwieldy to untrained fighters so... yeah a speed nerf but also maybe the r1 combo would be a stab then a twist and remove action allowing for a two hit combo that's hard to spam


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:50 pm



    Spears in general have been great to use in dark souls.  They were very bare and not flashy attack animation-wise, but they were the most efficient.  Nothing needs to be changed about them.  Even that spears+greatshields and rapiers+lightshields doesn't make any sense.  A shields a shield.  Most spear users don't use lightshields in the first place because of their low stability.

    1.)  I don't know if you know this but poking from behind a shield already has nerfed speed compared to it's normal attacks.  The main purpose of that is because if someone just spams pokes from behind a shield, they can easily be punished with a backstab because of the close to nonexistent tracking.  If they switch the shield-pokes pros and cons and nerf the speed, but buff the tracking then one of 2 things would happen:
    A.)  The tracking is fast enough that you actually encouraged even more turtling
    B.)  That mechanic is essentially useless and you take away one of the spear's greatest strengths.
    Either way, the no tracking and reduced speed makes sense as it is.

    2.)  A Ricard's rapier attack from behind a shield makes absolutely no sense.  From the animation of the R2 attack you can see that the player has to focus and loses some of their balance stabbing that fast with such a small weapon.  If spears, who average about 7 feet in length, had a multi-stab attack like that it would either be so fast that it would just look ridiculous, or be so slow that you might as well just press the attack button twice.  Not to mention that everyone would just sidestep it.

    3.)  "Give them a viable damage output" implies that you think spears are weak.  If so, then why are you even going through all this about nerfing them?  Once again, a ricard's attack would be absolute nonsense for 7-foot spears.  Since I use the R2s they have now I can safely say that you just haven't learned how to use them properly if you think they're bad.

    4.)  Spears are mostly for poking.  There's already a type of spear that you can swing around like a baseball bat.  It's called a halberd.  Making them swing-able would muddle the line between spears and halbers to the point that they may as well be combined into one class, and I know no one wants that.

    5.)  So, you're saying that it's hard to poke with a spear, yet you want a "Ricard's rapier attack"?  You also say it takes a hell of a lot of work to use spears like they do in dark souls, yet number 1-4 is essentially about how they can use them better?


    Last edited by LunarFog on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:55 pm

    As for what would balance them let me see...

    PROS 
    Longest reach in the game
    Medium speed
    Medium damage
    Low stamina consumption
    Can poke through shields

    CONS  
    Boring movesets
    Low critical damage


    From that I would say that the only way to change spears would be to increase the stamina consumption for their attacks.  That would effectively fix every gripe everyone has about them since they would be limited to 2-3 SAFE pokes and it would be that much harder to turtle.


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:35 pm

    Parry the tips.

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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:39 pm

    Also, watch this from 1:09 to 1:40 to see the best spear move set.....ever.

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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by SadPanda on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:48 pm

    When I say Ricard's rapier combo, I mean just the first two hits, not the full fledged combo. And this would be limited to the lesser spears such as the vanilla spear and the winged spear. I wouldn't want to be able to do it with a pike or a dragonslayer spear. Anyways, if the R2 drained more stamina, and if blockstun was increased slightly it would be a viable R2. The damage outputs for the long annoying R2's that rarely ever hit need some sort of incentive. Demon's spear, pike; And since 2-3 pokes could be done in the same time it makes them worthless. But if you're going to have a long windup, I think it deserves a slight damage buff and/or more knockback. I'm not saying all around damage increase, just on the risky R2's. The only reason I brought up the whole "how to use spears like in Dark Souls" was to show why the spears are too fast when two-handed. And I don't really see a problem with mixing halberds with spears and just making a polearm class. It would break the limitations of both classes, allowing for unique weapons with better movesets. I'm not saying that spears were bad, but they're just so lacking in my opinion.


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:00 pm

    So, you're saying spears are NOT good to use in Dark Souls?  Are you talking pvp, or pve? confused
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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:02 pm

    The R2's arn't risky really, I use them all the time to surprise people who think they're out of range, and that uber range is why they're not really risky. The sks r2 deadangles well and defeats bs attempts with damage.

    Spears are lacking in options, because its essentially an arrowhead on a 7 foot stick. Not many options other than stab when using such a weapon.


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:02 pm

    Animaaal wrote:So, you're saying spears are NOT good to use in Dark Souls?  Are you talking pvp, or pve? confused
    Either answer is wrong.


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by SadPanda on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:05 pm

    No, spears are good. But they're probably the most boring weapon in my opinion. PvE and PvP.


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:07 pm

    They're already the most efficient weapon.  Cut them some slack, they can't be the best at everything.


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:07 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:So, you're saying spears are NOT good to use in Dark Souls?  Are you talking pvp, or pve? confused
    Either answer is wrong.

    I don't get it.

    @Panda

    Okay. I get it now. I'm kinda glad they're so boring. Otherwise they'd be the only weapon used in pvp.
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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by SadPanda on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:21 pm

    Yeah, but the only reason they're so efficient is because of their reach.


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:26 pm

    ...Continue?  I don't see why that would be a problem?

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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:07 pm

    two things about spears I observed.

    the attack from behind a shield is not very useful.   
    a) it is a short range attack
    b) if you actually block an attack while striking, your stamina is surely completely depleted leaving you open to be staggered if you block the next attack.
    c) there is not a straight ahead attack with the pike with one hand, which is lame.  that to me would be the whole point of using the pike because of its long range. in narrow hallways.
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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by SadPanda on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:30 pm

    The whole thing about spears being efficient due to only range, could be an analogy with something as a boat to a car. The boat can only be used in water, and the car can only be used on land. But a hovercraft can do both, bu not as well. Like as halberds and spears, but both of these combined to one class would allow for more breathing room as in terms of variety.


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:46 pm

    SlothAlmighty wrote:two things about spears I observed.

    the attack from behind a shield is not very useful.   
    a) it is a short range attack  It has about the same length as a normal attack, which is still longer than an overwhelming majority of every other weapon in the game
    b) if you actually block an attack while striking, your stamina is surely completely depleted leaving you open to be staggered if you block the next attack.  Wrong.  Your stamina won't be completely drained unless you're trying to block with a light shield with base endurance.  I can block 2 or 3 attacks while attacking back safely with any greatshield and still have enough stamina to roll away.
    c) there is not a straight ahead attack with the pike with one hand, which is lame.  that to me would be the whole point of using the pike because of its long range. in narrow hallways.  The pike is nothing butstraight attacks

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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:48 pm

    Spears have way more than just their range, like I've said in a previous post.  There's absolutely no reason to combine the halber and the spears.  They're two completely different weapons with their movesets.

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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:56 pm

    basically, if you want the ranged stab but a fun moveset too, use the halberd, sure you can't shield poke but it has more damage anyway?

    also animal, i'd love that jump slam as a spear r2, good clip!


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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:02 pm

    the pike is straight ahead with 2 hands but a swing with one hand.  

    as far as the spear/shield stamina issue, its more of an issue when blocking attacks from powerful enemies like black knights.  I also use a medium shield not a great shield.  the regular foes aren't much problem no matter which weapon  you use.  its just a matter of aesthetics at that point.

    I personally used the halberd almost exclusively due to its high range and damage, and ability to use in narrow hallways.  however it did struggle in situations that called for a horizontal slash such as against sif.  the R2 spin attack works decent in those cases but almost completely drains stamina.


    that was just my experience, I'm by no means a master DSler

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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:09 pm

    sparkly-twinkly-lizard wrote:...also animal, i'd love that jump slam as a spear r2, good clip!

    ikr? Also, she's so dreamy...:x
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    Re: The Spear's Moveset, Attacking from Defense, and You!

    Post by SlothAlmighty on Sat Jun 15, 2013 12:06 am

    old school spear battle



    new school


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