What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by RandomAttractor on Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:28 pm

    twigsterxd wrote:Now that you said that, it's no different than using homebone except you use bonfires instead

     Wait! The homeward bone/miracle lets you warp to the last visited bonfire from anywhere in the world.. Did they say that you will be able to warp to a selected bonfire from anywhere in DS2 without the aforementioned mechanic? If so, the gameplay will be heavily impacted..
     Anyhow, it's all pretty much speculation at this point so lets just trust FromSoft (and Overseer Miyazaki of course).


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by twigsterxd on Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:45 pm

    The way it's interpreted to me is, it works the same way as we warp now, but, you don't need vessel to activate warps


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Seignar on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:05 pm

    The way I see it, it heavily depends on how the game world is done. Fast Travel does not work on some games and does on others for various reasons. If they were to allow warping from the very beginning, it could mean many things:

    - There will be many areas that trap you (Already seen in the demo, the player dropped from the stairs at the very beginning of the level and was unable to return, separating them from the bonfire). On another topic, this seems to indicate a well-played maneuver in order to prevent running back to the bonfire in case of bad luck, making your punishment all the more likely to be death.

    - There will be few ways of backtracking. This is actually a good thing in terms of gameplay. It means that they can take a more Demon Souls approach since they aren't forced to connect areas in order to double back to, unlike how they had to connect Blighttown to Firelink and make a long, boring path back. They could, for example, make an entire castle level to explore, without having to worry on how to connect each section to the next, letting them design the level better.

    - Less shortcuts. Again, this is something with designing the level. If you aren't allowed to warp, they have to make shortcuts and that means they have to design the shortcut, which can take away time from making another obstacle instead. Also, creating shortcuts reduces the dangers of dying since...you have a shortcut.

    So, the idea of being able to warp from the get-go is good if they plan on creating more treacherous pathways in between them. Players already have incentives to stick around places in hopes of finding secrets or conquering an optional enemy. Being able to warp from the start gives them excuse not to create as many shortcuts, create more "Path of no return" as seen in the demo and overall let's them be more free with their level designs because they don't have to worry about connecting areas as much and can space bonfires even further.

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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by RandomAttractor on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:21 pm

    @twigsterxd :Yes, that is what I gathered from the interviews as well.. So, not a problem. The info on the mechanics is so little at the time, we'll have to wait and see the whole plan before making assumptions on the game's difficulty/accessibility..


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by eminusx on Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:35 am

    Ok, there seems to be bit of confusion about what point is being made here.

    I could be completely wrong about this, but what ive read so far suggests that in order to make it more accessible and help newbies try out new areas you can warp to some bonfires / areas without having first lit them which is similar to the nexus, in my opinion that would be a step backwards for the immersion and atmosphere of the game as its important to experience how the game world is knitted together. For me, the gameworld and your path through it was far more effective in DaS than DeS, this is obviously a personal thing, but the unbroken journey surely only adds to how immersed you become right? Its the same deal with cutscenes pulling you out of the gameplay. . .flow is crucial!

    Also, Im not against warping between bonfires once youve been through the game a few times and have explored every nook and cranny to the fullest, this is useful for PvP and farming etc however, the first couple of playthroughs, to me anyway, should be about stumbling upon new areas, not warping to them without knowing what youre getting into. If you have to light the bonfire first as with DaS then thats cool, but it would be a shame to return to a nexus style pick your area' approach.


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Myztyrio on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:02 am

    If you can simply warp anywhere without being at a bonfire, it will make for some crazy *** speedruns.


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by eminusx on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:27 am

    I haven't read anything about warping without a bonfire and I doubt that would be in the game. Its likely restricted to bonfires, bones, miracles etc


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Halicarnassis on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:50 am

    I feel a no-lighting-bonfires run coming up!


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Murkulanvippi on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:01 am

    What if there can be only certain amount of bonfires lit at the same time? You see in the trailer the bonfire go unlit when the main character is doin the same pose as kindling the flame. Just a wild speculation.


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by phastings on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:11 am

    Seignar wrote:The way I see it, it heavily depends on how the game world is done. Fast Travel does not work on some games and does on others for various reasons. If they were to allow warping from the very beginning, it could mean many things:

    - There will be many areas that trap you (Already seen in the demo, the player dropped from the stairs at the very beginning of the level and was unable to return, separating them from the bonfire). On another topic, this seems to indicate a well-played maneuver in order to prevent running back to the bonfire in case of bad luck, making your punishment all the more likely to be death.

    - There will be few ways of backtracking. This is actually a good thing in terms of gameplay. It means that they can take a more Demon Souls approach since they aren't forced to connect areas in order to double back to, unlike how they had to connect Blighttown to Firelink and make a long, boring path back. They could, for example, make an entire castle level to explore, without having to worry on how to connect each section to the next, letting them design the level better.

    - Less shortcuts. Again, this is something with designing the level. If you aren't allowed to warp, they have to make shortcuts and that means they have to design the shortcut, which can take away time from making another obstacle instead. Also, creating shortcuts reduces the dangers of dying since...you have a shortcut.

    So, the idea of being able to warp from the get-go is good if they plan on creating more treacherous pathways in between them. Players already have incentives to stick around places in hopes of finding secrets or conquering an optional enemy. Being able to warp from the start gives them excuse not to create as many shortcuts, create more "Path of no return" as seen in the demo and overall let's them be more free with their level designs because they don't have to worry about connecting areas as much and can space bonfires even further.



    Wow.. Everything said here is exactly what they should be doing if they really feel it necessary to cut down on 'tedium.' Reading this just made me feel better about the whole warp wherever you want thing. well said! +you defeated!

    Tho level design will have to be VERY intuitive. Which now makes more sense than ever that the devs have DOUBLED their world creation team.. if that's the correct term.. I read this in an interview with From directors, but cant remember which exactly. But anyways, very promising!

     they have also stated that the game world would be roughly the same size, just much denser. I take this they mean to "trim the fat" off those looong runs thru vast tracts like demon ruins or anor londo, devoid of enemy/environment interaction and fill in the gaps with danger. I like the idea of dense. If that is what they mean, then I will not mind.

    My chief concern lays with warping to a bonfire right before a boss... That will somewhat drain the reward sense right out of beating a boss, because 1) the stress from knowing that if you lose you have to go thru it all over again wont be as intense, and 2) its is not about just beating the boss, but finally DEFEATING both him AND the treacherous gauntlet to his fog gate.


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by eminusx on Fri Jun 14, 2013 6:20 am

    @seignar



    If the game world isnt fluidly inter-connected like it was in DS and you cant turn back on yourself because youre consistently trapped, then surely youre just being pushed along a linear path with some minor deviation along the way? One of the biggest features about Dark Souls which so many gamers and scribes made such a big deal about was that the world was so beautifully inter-connected in every direction, you saw somewhere off in the distance and you can go there if you persevere and find your way.
     
    'There will be few ways of backtracking, this is actually a good thing in terms of gameplay. they arent forced to connect areas in order to double back' so its basically linear gameplay. . .and how is this a good thing?
     
    To me this is just a terrible idea, DS stands head and shoulders above other games BECAUSE of its amazing interlinking world, it sounds like youre suggesting it would be better being a linear path. That’s just madness!


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Odinbear on Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:00 am

    The nexus was a warp platform from the beginning of the game, as long as you opened up an area, you could warp there. No different than what they hinted at.


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Seignar on Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:12 am

    Demon's Souls didn't suffer because of its linearity.
    Also, my thoughts did not imply linearity. I said you could constantly get trapped in the sense that you can't go back making it more likely for you to die. By going back I refer to that single point, but that doesn't mean they can't just make 2 pathways after that point, the demo showed there were actually about 3 pathways past that "Point of No Return". All it takes is 1 "Point of No Return" to change a level, then they can make varying pathways afterwards. At another point, they can make that pathway have a "Point of No Return" and split into other paths. Yet, the player can always go back to the previous bonfire they have seen.

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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by eminusx on Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:30 am

    Thats a fair point , if they blocked off a route option but had multiple pathways from there that could be cool and provide some interesting scenarios. I think its really important to retain the interlinking nature of the game world and the free to roam mechanic as with DaS, this was a major improvement over DeS in my opinion.

    Demons was a great game, but returning to the nexus time and again really broke the immersion for me, kinda the same way as putting an advert in the middle of a film, it made it feel like a 'game' not an 'experience' which is what Dark felt like, which is why I think its important to retain such key game mechanics.


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Seignar on Fri Jun 14, 2013 10:03 am

    On a slightly different topic, I think warping should still be limited as there are still bonfires mid-level. It doesn't make sense if you can warp anywhere you pleased without dangers, save for the important spots, such as the beginning of levels or the Main HUB.

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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by phastings on Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:20 am

    I just see the point of no return mechanic being a balance for the ability to warp right off the bat; concession vs consequence. 

    demon's souls was by no means linear, as the nexus being central you could go any 5 different ways. Though you couldn't warp forward, only back. Dark souls more or less compelled you to follow a more narrow progression, despite being able to go anywhere in a connected world. Imagine the inability to warp there..

    If they make a more central world in a similar layout as demons souls, while keeping it interconnected, they can accomplish a more cohesive design thus trimming the fat. id prefer a dark souls type world, though you have to think that limits level design having to fit together somehow. Warping (immersion breaking it may be) allows a lot more freedom for how a level is composed.

    As mentioned, the trailer shows the bonfire extinguish. Whether this be from invasion or some other new devilry, it hints there is some way they are going to punish the reliance on bonfires and in turn warping.


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Seignar on Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:30 am

    Bonfire Extinguishing was never confirmed and, in the trailer, it seemed more like kindling or de-Hollowing than extinguishing. Just saying.

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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by exod FEAR on Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:49 am

    if this has been said already I apologize, I kind of just skimmed through the other posts..

    So what if when you warp to another (lit) bonfire, you extinguish the one you are currently at?

    It will allow you to get where you want to go quickly (and without resistance) but in order to find your way back you'll need to go through the area again.

    I think this would help to balance it.

    Opinions?


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Lorrac ESP on Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:56 am

    Oh god, this does not bode well.

    Looks like "skyrim players" was not just a marketing target, but a gameplay target as well.

    Maybe I'm being pessimistic, but after seeing so many good franchises destroyed in the ungodly pursuit of the call of duty/skyrim sales, well...
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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by phastings on Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:57 am

    Right, nothing is confirmed, but in the interest of conjecture it would make sense for them to add a consequence for their use/abuse especially if we are warping anywhere.

    In the video its already lit, something above it appears then pours over it. From that very short clip Im reading "extinguished. you are now ****ed."


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by phastings on Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:58 am

    exod FEAR wrote:if this has been said already I apologize, I kind of just skimmed through the other posts..

    So what if when you warp to another (lit) bonfire, you extinguish the one you are currently at?

    It will allow you to get where you want to go quickly (and without resistance) but in order to find your way back you'll need to go through the area again.

    I think this would help to balance it.

    Opinions?

    smart! +


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Myztyrio on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:42 pm


    Seignar wrote:On a slightly different topic, I think warping should still be limited as there are still bonfires mid-level. It doesn't make sense if you can warp anywhere you pleased without dangers, save for the important spots, such as the beginning of levels or the Main HUB.



    My guess for this would be that they will not make all bonfires warp-able. That they will make it a style somewhat mixed between DkS and DeS. Like DeS, because of its more linear traveling paths - ex. from the Nexus there were five paths to travel along(Don't get me wrong, Dark Souls certainly functioned this way too, just more intuitively - ex. burg -> lower burg -> depths -> blighttown -> demon ruins -> lost izalith; burg -> parish -> sen's -> anor londo -> duke's archives -> crystal cave).
    But I think that they will limit the amount of bonfires that are warp-able to, Dark Souls style, but with slight variation. You will be able to warp from the start, probably to certain key bonfires that lead down different paths. Not unlike Dark Souls, the player will have to decide which path they are or are not ready to travel, and if they are familiar like in DeS, know which path will most benefit them(whether it be for NPC's, a weapon, souls, etc.). Then after traveling a good way down that path, you will begin to see that each path intertwines itself with another path in one way or another(call this a shortcut, or a detour, if you will). Then it will again be up to the player to decide which way direction they want to tackle.
    Once reaching a certain key Hub, Covenant, NPC, Arena, etc., with it will come a warp-able bonfire, but it will be reasonably placed so that you must travel in order to reach other important landmarks. Bosses(except possibly in the case where there are multiple bosses spaced near each other, or a particularly deviant boss) are likely going to be far from the warp-able bonfires. Likely these bonfires will be placed after a major boss, when it is made impossible to backtrack to that boss by going around it on a different path(or it could be blocked by a door or obstacle, making it impossible, or very difficult, to get to the boss without facing the boss's minions).
    I trust that we are in good hands, and that From will work diligently to produce a reasonably designed, and hopefully awe-inspiring world.
    :razz:


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by skarekrow13 on Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:53 pm

    I'm fine with anything they implement regarding this honestly.  Even if it was every bonfire (although I doubt it will be). I was also very happy with the idea of fast travel in Oblivion and Skyrim too though.  When I'm in exploring/farming/etc. mode I'll walk every step of the way and love it.  If I have to run through a lot of areas to get to the thing I'm actually interested in?  Well it can be fun, in Dark Souls I often enjoyed some backtracking since it meant more souls and practice.  But toward the end of the game I found myself just running past everything when I wanted to change areas, which is essentially me trying to fast travel without experiencing the area another time.  Also, if the concept of vengeful enemies is put in there a lot where they will pursue you endlessly, then I would say warping is a logical addition.  I can't just run through an area if I have ten enemies that will never stop chasing me.  The likely outcome is that they kill me and I have to do it all again, but this time more carefully.  So warping I think might be great for some of the tedium to go away at certain points.

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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:07 pm

    I hate the fast travel system in skyrim. I will use it only to return to wherever my house is, to simulate the mark and recall spells. It was done best in morrowind, imo. Being able to teleport anywhere at any time wrecks any sense of immersion (for me).

    Its too..... convienient, it turns the game into a check list, especially as is wasn't in previous games and so its not even like its a feature of the world, its just something they're doing for convienience and retconing a reason in.


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    Re: What are your thoughts on being able to warp between fires right away?

    Post by Sargerus on Fri Jun 14, 2013 5:13 pm

    That smoke is actually the new animation for warping. Someone on gamefaqs played it at E3 and gave his impressions, i'll condense the info.

    •The gameplay demo had a sorcerer run through the previous level we've seen but he made those turtle knights break a wall to create a secret room with a bonfire that let him warp. The smoke covering the bonfire seen in new trailer is warping animation.

    •Mirror Knight. Very tough boss who can deflect magic with the shield and can summon help. PR guy said it was just AI for the demo which must mean it's meant to be other players ala Old Monk. Seems it can summon multiple players if you dillydally long enough. The mirror knight, he summons a player really quickly. Like 5 seconds from start to finish.

    •Your character and the enemies seem slightly larger than in DS. Jump moved to L3.

    •Different herbs, Amber and Twilight. These could be used while in green blossom buff he's not sure what it does. Green blossoms are back. The stamina penalties seemed much harsher, even after using a blossom. 
    .
    •Magic, L2 does slower but more powerful version of the spell. New magic buff was called something like Astounding Ooze

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