gg FROMSoft

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    Seignar
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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Seignar on Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:33 pm

    The problem with poise is that they made it too easy to reach optimal poise values without much sacrifice, namely, they made FaP and made Wolf Ring too powerful. All of this is issue is really a matter with Heavy Armor. Look, if they are going to take out Poise, they have to buff Heavy Armor.

    If they buff Heavy Armor, you have people with God-like defenses. Technically, those people could still use high-speed katanas and would still be at an advantage with you because they take less damage. The only overall concern of poise is that defensive factor, which is only natural of Heavy Armor.

    The problem with Poise was they made it to easy, which isn't a natural problem that comes with it, it can be adjusted. They can make poise harder to get and they can make it more costly. Again, the problem in Dark Souls was that it was too easy to get to optimal values. With a nerf to rolling and a hopeful nerf to Poise, Heavy Armor would not pose a problem, especially since it seems they are solving backstabbing issues.

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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Emergence on Sun Jun 16, 2013 10:48 pm

    This thread is an intended discussion about poise. There is no need for it to journey into realms of personal indictments or insults.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by phastings on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:36 am

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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by phastings on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:48 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    phastings wrote:.........wizards will rule the new pvp world..........

    The EyeThe Eye
    We are watching, let the war begin.

    I are so much scared wizards worried

    haha there is not enough visine in the world to wash away the menace from those eyes.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:30 am

    I like Poise system, but I also agree that it is flawed and could use a fix.
    On the other hand, it is still far better than pushlocking in DeS.

    Also, Poise was the only reason to wear armor, since the additional defence the armor provides are too little to sacrifice mobility for them. Again, it has a downside. Imagine seeing a guy in full, heavy armor, being flinched around by a dagger. That's silly, no matter how you go around it. 

    I see a solution to this by either fixing Poise system, or by significanlty raising armor's defensive properties.

    As for the fix to the Poise system, I think that all could be solved by simply tweaking the numbers. Make armor with Poise heavier seems like a good solution to the problem. However, devs must take care to not make mistakes, like Hollow armor, which is very light a provides Poise (even though it shouldn't, given how it looks). Another way would be to make roll speed dependant on armor equipped, meaning that even if you would have one piece of heavy armor and rest naked, you would still medium roll no matter what. Since FROM has to somehow change the equipment and weight system to enable us to use three weapons at once, this seems quite likely to happen imo.

    This, imho should eliminate all those fast rolling 54 Poise builds, which seems to be the core of the problem.

    Well...removing Havel's and Wolf Ring would also work I guess. Better have both. big grin


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Animaaal on Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:59 am

    phastings wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    phastings wrote:.........wizards will rule the new pvp world..........

    The EyeThe Eye
    We are watching, let the war begin.

    I are so much scared wizards worried

    haha there is not enough visine in the world to wash away the menace from those eyes.

    Lol. I shoulda said, "Quoted for truth". I love mages and can't wait for them to return and claim the throne they rightly deserve. twisted
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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by jaythibodeau on Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:39 pm

    Sentiel wrote:I like Poise system, but I also agree that it is flawed and could use a fix.
    On the other hand, it is still far better than pushlocking in DeS.

    Also, Poise was the only reason to wear armor, since the additional defence the armor provides are too little to sacrifice mobility for them. Again, it has a downside. Imagine seeing a guy in full, heavy armor, being flinched around by a dagger. That's silly, no matter how you go around it. 

    I see a solution to this by either fixing Poise system, or by significanlty raising armor's defensive properties.

    As for the fix to the Poise system, I think that all could be solved by simply tweaking the numbers. Make armor with Poise heavier seems like a good solution to the problem. However, devs must take care to not make mistakes, like Hollow armor, which is very light a provides Poise (even though it shouldn't, given how it looks). Another way would be to make roll speed dependant on armor equipped, meaning that even if you would have one piece of heavy armor and rest naked, you would still medium roll no matter what. Since FROM has to somehow change the equipment and weight system to enable us to use three weapons at once, this seems quite likely to happen imo.

    This, imho should eliminate all those fast rolling 54 Poise builds, which seems to be the core of the problem.

    Well...removing Havel's and Wolf Ring would also work I guess. Better have both. big grin

    Yeah, sounds like it might work. But, it wouldn't really make much sense either to wear only a single piece of armor that is heavy to automatically make you fat roll. With this, you'd also be limited to only choosing light armors if you want to fast roll. While it sounds ok, they will still have to balance out poise and weight.

    How about this, the amount of poise you have determines your roll speed. But wait, that's what weight does. So, why not just combine the two. The amount of weight the armor / weapon has determines the amount of poise it gives. That way, they wouldn't have to balance out two separate attributes. If you exceed 50 poise / weight, you mid roll. If your giant club thing weighs 10, it gives 10 poise (Thus the incentive to using strength weapons). With that, it'd be impossible to have high poise and fast roll speed, while not severely limiting armor choice.

    In my opinion, having poise and weight be separated just leaves room for error. It would have to be excessively balanced.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Sentiel on Mon Jun 17, 2013 1:56 pm

    Ever had chainmail on you? It's so f*cking heavy you're glad you can walk. Imagine Havel's. winking

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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by jaythibodeau on Mon Jun 17, 2013 2:07 pm

    I don't even want to think about it. Prostration
    But yeah, separating weight and poise makes for some errors. Such as that thing you said about the Hollow armor. Same thing with the Wolf Ring too. It just adds too much into the mix.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:55 pm

    Sentiel wrote:Ever had chainmail on you? It's so f*cking heavy you're glad you can walk. Imagine Havel's. winking
    Only because you're not trained for it.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Sentiel on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:01 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    Sentiel wrote:Ever had chainmail on you? It's so f*cking heavy you're glad you can walk. Imagine Havel's. winking
    Only because you're not trained for it.
    Our dear avatar is? For all I know, the guy was rotting in a cell for years.

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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Forum Pirate on Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:07 pm

    Not havels, chain. If you're trained to fight for days wearing it, wearing it just walking around isn't going to be a big deal. For the record though, the same applies to plate to a lesser extent.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by phastings on Tue Jun 18, 2013 8:54 pm

    I kinda want to purchase a set of chainmail, just to wear out when running errands. People would be both frightened and confused. Then I'd evade the mall security guard with a series of somersaults to test out the physical limitations.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:34 am

    Learn to make it. The materials are really cheap and you'll have a hobby. I have some protective arm pieces I made and sewed onto denim

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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by phastings on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:27 am

    skarekrow13 wrote:Learn to make it. The materials are really cheap and you'll have a hobby. I have some protective arm pieces I made and sewed onto denim

    yea? nice. that would be pretty fun. would make a cool protective, inside lining on the back of a peacoat or something


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Wed Jun 19, 2013 3:06 am

    I think I am going to make chain mail, learn moy tie, and become a crime-fighting vigilante.  My moniker will be:  Moy Chain.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by samster628 on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:43 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:I think I am going to make chain mail, learn moy tie, and become a crime-fighting vigilante.  My moniker will be:  Moy Chain.

    I wish you good luck with that!!


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by phastings on Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:56 pm

    as they say: "when in lordran, do as the undead do"


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:31 pm

    phastings wrote:I kinda want to purchase a set of chainmail, just to wear out when running errands. People would be both frightened and confused. Then I'd evade the mall security guard with a series of somersaults to test out the physical limitations.
    Its what 30lbs? no reason you couldn't with some practice.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by phastings on Fri Jun 21, 2013 11:44 pm

    Shoot, 30 isnt near as heavy as I was thinking. Maybe ill just wear a set if/when I ever go back to the gym. Maybe start one of those stupid fad workout gimmicks


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Jun 22, 2013 12:47 am

    phastings wrote:Shoot, 30 isnt near as heavy as I was thinking. Maybe ill just wear a set if/when I ever go back to the gym. Maybe start one of those stupid fad workout gimmicks

    Weighted clothing never looked so shiny lol!


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:13 pm

    Sentiel wrote:Ever had chainmail on you? It's so f*cking heavy you're glad you can walk. Imagine Havel's. winking

    I used to run 2 miles and wind sprints several times a week wearing a 20 pound vest.  Chain mail isn't THAT heavy.

    Also, chainmail sucks historically.  It is not good against thrusts from spears, got pierced by xbow bolts like nothing, and generally didn't do anything unless someone was slashing you.  You got barely less utility from something like overlapping tanned leather.  Chain was most practical underneath some kind of plate that resisted spear thrusts, but THAT got heavy.

    Some of the plate mails were both lighter and more effective, and interestingly the Mongol/Chinese style lamellar (might be mis-spelling it, basically layed metal pieces that were easy to swap out) was really good and not all that heavy; you'd have a hard time slashing OR poking through it.

    Rolling in this stuff is ridiculous, but then remember that the characters we control in this game are at least somewhat superhuman.  They can cast spells, get the "strength" to wield weapons no mortal man could, and fall distances that would kill any of us instantly and break out into a full sprint after doing so.  The game is not and should not go for pure realism.

    From a balance perspective, heavy armor + fast roll is questionable...but if we're going to force fat rolling, I'd like to see it be more competitively viable.
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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Sentiel on Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:21 pm

    I agree. I was merely pointing out that rolling around, not mention flipping with this heavy gear on you is ridiculous. Even if our characters are chosen undead. They're not Matrix chosen. big grin

    I actually think that forced roll speed is a viable option becuase all roll speeds are PvP viable if you learn how and when to use them. There are many YT vids with guys showing how to fart roll effectivelly. However if roll speed would be forced, armors should aslo get a boost in defence, making up for the lack of mobility.

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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:26 pm

    Chain wasn't great against spears or blugenoning but it does have the huge advantage of flexibility, it could armor joints, and it stopped the attacks 1 handed swords (the 2 handed varients hit hard enough to deal internal damage through the armor even without penetrating it,) axes, halberds (though again, internal damage was an issue and halberds can thrust as well) daggers and arrows (excluding those fired in specific patterns to punch armor.) Plate mail didn't really stop crossbows either, btw, the only point of anything else after the advent of the crossbow was to screen the crossbow users while they reloaded.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:54 am

    I agree. I was merely pointing out that rolling around, not mention flipping with this heavy gear on you is ridiculous. Even if our characters are chosen undead. They're not Matrix chosen.

    I'm not so sure.  While it isn't Matrix level stuff, the ability to fall 10x one's own high while wearing equipment and carrying a weapon is far beyond the realm of human ability.  Yes, it hurts the character to do that, but it won't kill him or even prevent him from moving at full speed!  I guarantee if someone had the leg and body strength to survive a fall like that, swing the demon's great hammer, or carry enough things at once to make Link blush that they would have enough strength to do a "fast roll" in heavy equipment.  We're talking about an undead guy with enough strength to stagger a 15+ foot giant in heavy armor with 1 swing if he has the right weapon handy, and that is going toe-to-toe with what are essentially deities (even if they are in decline).  In that context the rolling just isn't that much of a reach.

    Chain wasn't great against spears or blugenoning but it does have the huge advantage of flexibility, it could armor joints, and it stopped the attacks 1 handed swords

    It was indeed one of the few things that could armor joints, though it did so at the price of considerable range of motion.  Whether that was preferable would depend on opponent's weapon.  Mace type weapons were indeed popular because of their ability to damage even w/o destroying armor.

    Plate mail didn't really stop crossbows either

    Depends on the plate and the xbow.  I don't think very many things stopped those huge crank-to-reload xbows, but good plate armor in design could stop the kind that you would just stand on and pull back to draw I'd suspect.  I know that some plate mail actually stopped the early black powder bullets fired out of pistols and such, so you'd need a pretty powerful xbow to punch it and do lethal damage.  Getting anything through *good* shields was problematic before firearms got better too, and it's nice to see this series give shields love; they are rarely a solid option in games.


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    Re: gg FROMSoft

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