What is cheating ?

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    LunarFog
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:18 pm

    Cheating: To violate rules and regulations.


    By that definition, cheating could either be described in only 2 ways:

    1.) The use of hacking or glitches to do things that weren't intended to be able to be done by the game. This also includes using cheats to get items,, get to a high SL, or anything else.

    2.) Going against the widely accepted rules and standards for PvP.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by swordiris on Fri Jun 07, 2013 4:21 pm

    LunarFog wrote:Cheating: To violate rules and regulations.


    By that definition, cheating could either be described in only 2 ways:

    1.) The use of hacking or glitches to do things that weren't intended to be able to be done by the game. This also includes using cheats to get items,, get to a high SL, or anything else.

    2.) Going against the widely accepted rules and standards for PvP.


    I disagree with number 2 and half disagree with number 1.

    Using glitches isn't cheating. Weather the developers did it intentionally or not they still put it in their product.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by LunarFog on Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:13 pm

    swordiris wrote:

    I disagree with number 2 and half disagree with number 1.

    Using glitches isn't cheating. Weather the developers did it intentionally or not they still put it in their product.

    When talking about "rules" and "cheating" you should think about intentions and how they INTENDED and PLANNED for things to happen. Not unfortunate side effects or byproducts of faulty programming that the developers either didn't noticed or couldn't fix.

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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Encore on Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:31 pm

    I think cheating is only when you change the game directly, or exploit something that was not intended.

    As for dead angles, these are generally accepted by the community, so whether it was intended or not it is now.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Jun 07, 2013 5:40 pm

    I only consider things like hacking, modding etc to be actual cheating. For things like PvP I say it is all subjective based personal views of what is fair or honor duels.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Odinbear on Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:54 pm

    LunarFog wrote:Cheating: To violate rules and regulations.


    By that definition, cheating could either be described in only 2 ways:


    2.) Going against the widely accepted rules and standards for PvP.


    You mean the rools and standards set forth by the message board community? Not everybody reads this forum or for that matter even speaks the same language. Hard to say that these supposed rools can be cheated. They would first have to be recognized by everybody, which is virtually impossible.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Odinbear on Fri Jun 07, 2013 6:58 pm

    swordiris wrote:
    LunarFog wrote:Cheating: To violate rules and regulations.


    By that definition, cheating could either be described in only 2 ways:

    1.) The use of hacking or glitches to do things that weren't intended to be able to be done by the game. This also includes using cheats to get items,, get to a high SL, or anything else.

    2.) Going against the widely accepted rules and standards for PvP.


    I disagree with number 2 and half disagree with number 1.

    Using glitches isn't cheating. Weather the developers did it intentionally or not they still put it in their product.

    What glitches you talking about, that isn't cheating?


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Encore on Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:00 pm

    Odinbear wrote:
    swordiris wrote:
    LunarFog wrote:Cheating: To violate rules and regulations.


    By that definition, cheating could either be described in only 2 ways:

    1.) The use of hacking or glitches to do things that weren't intended to be able to be done by the game. This also includes using cheats to get items,, get to a high SL, or anything else.

    2.) Going against the widely accepted rules and standards for PvP.


    I disagree with number 2 and half disagree with number 1.

    Using glitches isn't cheating. Weather the developers did it intentionally or not they still put it in their product.

    What glitches you talking about, that isn't cheating?

    One, for example might be dead angling, depending on your opinion on it.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Odinbear on Fri Jun 07, 2013 7:05 pm

    Teh Kitten´s Cat wrote:
    Odinbear wrote:
    swordiris wrote:
    LunarFog wrote:Cheating: To violate rules and regulations.


    By that definition, cheating could either be described in only 2 ways:

    1.) The use of hacking or glitches to do things that weren't intended to be able to be done by the game. This also includes using cheats to get items,, get to a high SL, or anything else.

    2.) Going against the widely accepted rules and standards for PvP.


    I disagree with number 2 and half disagree with number 1.

    Using glitches isn't cheating. Weather the developers did it intentionally or not they still put it in their product.

    What glitches you talking about, that isn't cheating?

    One, for example might be dead angling, depending on your opinion on it.

    Not exactly sure what dead angling is. But if it might be considered a flaw in the game and you exploit it, how can it not be considered cheating? Kinda like killing manus with arrows from outside the fog gate. Clearly can be done. Don't believe it's intentional. Just a cheat to beat a boss without even having to encounter him.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Cronotis on Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:03 pm

    Dibsville wrote:If it wasn't intended, they would have fixed it.
    Inductive Reasoning

    Regarding dead angles, I think what From intended was that if you are locked onto enemy "A" and have your shield raised, then enemy "B" attacks you from your side you'll take damage. I don't think they foresaw people exploiting the mechanic in PVP. They may be ok with the way it gets used in PVP, or maybe they're not but they're more concerned about not changing shield functionality in PVE.

    Either way I think dead angles are fine. They certainly aren't cheating. Duping and hacking are the only things I'd call cheating. Even then duping in a way that simply saves time, allowing you to do something you could have otherwise done legitimately isn't cheating in my opinion.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:55 pm

    Dead Angle WotG is the only case in which Dead Angles get iffy in my book, that's mostly because it is so easy to do but to counter it requires one to be a lot more skilled, to predict the possibly random(Though most just do a 180 before casting WotG) way they may be facing.

    One I'd say I don't think is much of a glitch is spell cancelling, to my knowledge that would be a lot easier to remove. It was in Demon's as well, simply making it so that movement does not interrupt spell casting should really be enough. But maybe I don't know enough about their coding.
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:55 pm

    Hacking is cheating. Duping items like Divine Blessings or Liz's shrooms is cheating (since they are extremely restricted and not farmable). Using a lag switch is cheating. I can't think of anything else that classifies as cheating.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by IV_Mark_VI on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:07 pm

    Excellent post MeinTeam. +1


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:16 am

    reim0027 wrote:Hacking is cheating. Duping items like Divine Blessings or Liz's shrooms is cheating (since they are extremely restricted and not farmable). Using a lag switch is cheating. I can't think of anything else that classifies as cheating.

    Duping as long as its farmable seems a fairly accepted thing

    For me it is equivalent to boosting on a persistent leveling FPS


    Thanks for all your input guys. Great to see on my first thread on here


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:31 am

    Oh, forgot about the spell swap glitch. That is cheating too.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Sat Jun 08, 2013 9:39 am

    Here is a follow up question

    Is it ok to cheat if your opponent is cheating

    e.g your opponent is a hacker and you use duped divine blessings ??

    Or your opponent is using duped divine blessings so you do too ??
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by LunarFog on Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:32 pm

    Azrial wrote:
    reim0027 wrote:Hacking is cheating. Duping items like Divine Blessings or Liz's shrooms is cheating (since they are extremely restricted and not farmable). Using a lag switch is cheating. I can't think of anything else that classifies as cheating.

    Duping as long as its farmable seems a fairly accepted thing

    For me it is equivalent to boosting on a persistent leveling FPS


    Thanks for all your input guys. Great to see on my first thread on here


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    I'm not sure if duping is considered accepted...I think it's more along the lines of they have no idea to know whether or not your duping in the first place.

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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by LunarFog on Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:35 pm

    Azrial wrote:Here is a follow up question

    Is it ok to cheat if your opponent is cheating

    e.g your opponent is a hacker and you use duped divine blessings ??

    Or your opponent is using duped divine blessings so you do too ??

    The rules never change. If what you consider cheating is used before or after someone else cheats, it's still cheating. You just have to decide whether or not you CARE if you're cheating at that point.

    Validated cheating is still cheating.

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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:07 pm

    If someone is obviously hacking, I sure am going to use everything I can do to beat them (assuming I actually want to try). If an opponent spams DBs, so will I (assuming I have them). If I knew how to spell swap and my opponent was obviously a hacker/spell swapper, I would do that too.

    Yes, it is still cheating. But, I feel morally justified doing it.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Latitoast on Sat Jun 08, 2013 3:24 pm

    I define cheating as using an outside source to gain an advantage in PvP.

    Using a Save Editor to get 99 DB is cheating, but spawning a Black Knight Greataxe so you don't have to farm isn't.

    Using a trainer to freeze your health in PvP cheating, but using a trainer to get through the game in offline is fine, although I think your cheating yourself out of an experience.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:56 am

    Duping and save-editing are grey areas depending on how used. In the strict definition, they are cheating, but both can easily be used such that the ultimate resulting character is completely indistinguishable from a character that was made without using them. They do become cheating if they allow someone materials that are otherwise inaccessible or in impossible quantities though.

    From the perspective of online PvP I don't really care how someone got their character, as long as it is reasonably possible to attain that exact same character/stat distribution without cheating. I myself rarely build anything over 55 though because I don't have a save editor/didn't dupe and as a result don't have the patience to farm past that. Maybe I would otherwise, but I actually prefer 55 or some level below 100 because you have to make some serious health concessions to raise damage and it's pretty much impossible to get fast roll, strong hit points, and good poise.

    Yes, I realized elementals dominate at that soul level, but I don't see how that's materially different from +15 dominating at lvl 100 or 120 lol.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Odinbear on Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:15 am

    LunarFog wrote:
    Azrial wrote:Here is a follow up question

    Is it ok to cheat if your opponent is cheating

    e.g your opponent is a hacker and you use duped divine blessings ??

    Or your opponent is using duped divine blessings so you do too ??

    The rules never change. If what you consider cheating is used before or after someone else cheats, it's still cheating. You just have to decide whether or not you CARE if you're cheating at that point.

    Validated cheating is still cheating.

    If my chess opponent cheats, I should cheat. Come on? Did you just ask that? Common sense , says no.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:48 pm

    PSN official site says you can: report behaviour and activities to their moderation team by other players that you feel are unacceptable... "Grief Reporting" under "game play" lists the following categories: (et al)
    Cheating (codes)
    Exploits & Glitches

    https://secure.eu.playstation.com/psn/support/grief-reporting/

    By this service being active I would say cheating includes using glitches, exploits, cheats and codes to the extent that other players will complain about you and your violation of the parameters laid out by the game, making it unfair for others.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:50 pm

    Halicarnassis wrote:PSN official site says you can: report behaviour and activities to their moderation team by other players that you feel are unacceptable... "Grief Reporting" under "game play" lists the following categories: (et al)
    Cheating (codes)
    Exploits & Glitches

    https://secure.eu.playstation.com/psn/support/grief-reporting/

    By this service being active I would say cheating includes using glitches, exploits, cheats and codes to the extent that other players will complain about you and your violation of the parameters laid out by the game, making it unfair for others.
    Is that how you report someone? Good to know for the next time run into a hacker.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Jun 10, 2013 1:53 pm

    @Reim: yup
    Cheaters will be locked out of the Playstation Network as it violates their terms of sale when you purchase a PS2/3/4. Obviously buy purchasing a console you agree to their terms of service and are thus illegally using their console for your benefit.
    Gotta love contract law!

    I will accept all praise and recognition for your reporting efforts winking


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