What is cheating ?

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    What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:07 am

    I see a lot about what is honourable in Dark Souls and it got me thinking what is cheating ??

    * Hacking

    Obvious but gives us a baseline we can all agree on


    * Duping

    Mostly divine blessing, but isn't it cheating whatever you dupe, however you use it


    * Roll camera lock backstab

    Dose not seem intended by dev's


    * Chain backstab

    Again dose not seem intended


    * Dead angle

    Maybe intended maybe not, but WOG dead angle is just crazy


    Interested in your thoughts Point Forward

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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Dibsville on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:09 am

    Azrial wrote:I see a lot about what is honourable in Dark Souls and it got me thinking what is cheating ??

    * Hacking

    Obvious but gives us a baseline we can all agree on


    * Duping

    Mostly divine blessing, but isn't it cheating whatever you dupe, however you use it


    * Roll camera lock backstab

    Dose not seem intended by dev's


    * Chain backstab

    Again dose not seem intended


    * Dead angle

    Maybe intended maybe not, but WOG dead angle is just crazy


    Interested in your thoughts Point Forward

    Praise the sun Praise the Sun

    Fixed
    Those were completely intended by the devs, and there are ways to counter it.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Conrack on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:30 am

    Dibsville wrote:
    Azrial wrote:I see a lot about what is honourable in Dark Souls and it got me thinking what is cheating ??

    * Hacking

    Obvious but gives us a baseline we can all agree on


    * Duping

    Mostly divine blessing, but isn't it cheating whatever you dupe, however you use it


    * Roll camera lock backstab

    Dose not seem intended by dev's


    * Chain backstab

    Again dose not seem intended


    * Dead angle

    Maybe intended maybe not, but WOG dead angle is just crazy


    Interested in your thoughts Point Forward

    Praise the sun Praise the Sun

    Fixed
    Those were completely intended by the devs, and there are ways to counter it.
    Can I see your source for this "intention" ?


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Dibsville on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:38 am

    If it was not intended, they would have fixed it in the last 9 patches.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by wretchedsausage on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:41 am

    Cheating- Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game.

    it's pretty much anything which gives you an unfair advantage over others. none of the things you mentioned constitute cheating, since everybody can do them, so there is no advantage, unfair or otherwise.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:45 am

    Dibsville wrote:If it was not intended, they would have fixed it in the last 9 patches.

    Maybe they couldn't fix it

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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:47 am

    wretchedsausage wrote:Cheating- Act dishonestly or unfairly in order to gain an advantage, esp. in a game.

    it's pretty much anything which gives you an unfair advantage over others. none of the things you mentioned constitute cheating, since everybody can do them, so there is no advantage, unfair or otherwise.


    Hacking / duping isn't cheating ??
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Dibsville on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:51 am

    Azrial wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:If it was not intended, they would have fixed it in the last 9 patches.

    Maybe they couldn't fix it
    They can fix it.
    It's a game, you can fix anything.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:55 am

    Dibsville wrote:
    Azrial wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:If it was not intended, they would have fixed it in the last 9 patches.

    Maybe they couldn't fix it
    They can fix it.
    It's a game, you can fix anything.

    To a extent yes but the devs/publishers have to decide if its worth the time/money to fix
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Dibsville on Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:57 am

    They are a huge mechanic to the PvP of the game. If it wasn't intended, they would have fixed it.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:01 am

    Dibsville wrote:They are a huge mechanic to the PvP of the game. If it wasn't intended, they would have fixed it.


    Getting WOG dead angle by a guy stood directly in front of you while you have your shield up facing him, Because he was facing away from you

    Is a huge mechanic to the PvP of the game ??
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Dibsville on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:02 am

    I think you misunderstood me when I said huge mechanic.

    I meant that it has a major effect on PvP. I did not say the effect was good.

    They would have fixed it if they didn't intend for it to be there.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:13 am

    Dibsville wrote:I think you misunderstood me when I said huge mechanic.

    I meant that it has a major effect on PvP. I did not say the effect was good.

    They would have fixed it if they didn't intend for it to be there.


    I see

    The misunderstanding was not intentional I assure you

    I'm really interested in the community's thoughts on this stuff, as for me everything beyond hacking and duping is a gray area


    I don't think the fact they haven't fixed something is proof they intended or are happy with something though.

    But that's just my thoughts
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by swordiris on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:38 am

    The only thing that is "Cheating" is hacking the game.

    Anything From allows you to do is fair. As much as I hate gankers I don't even consider that "Cheating" because the game allows people to do it.

    Everything is fair in a one vs one fight except hacking. Ganking is unfair only by the nature of two vs one. Think of it as your opponent playing with a handicap, it isn't however "Cheating"


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Fri Jun 07, 2013 11:48 am

    swordiris wrote:The only thing that is "Cheating" is hacking the game.

    Anything From allows you to do is fair. As much as I hate gankers I don't even consider that "Cheating" because the game allows people to do it.

    Everything is fair in a one vs one fight except hacking. Ganking is unfair only by the nature of two vs one. Think of it as your opponent playing with a handicap, it isn't however "Cheating"


    Completely agree with you on ganking, that's why I didn't put it in my OP

    That falls under the chivalry debate not cheating
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:34 pm


    If it was not intended, they would have fixed it in the last 9 patches.
    Patch history across games suggests that this isn't true at all, despite the fact that it is a logical position.

    Besides, it is very possible that the issue is deep enough in the engine that fixing it is not viable on a cost basis.

    Obvious cheating:


    • Hacks
    • Glitches to duplicate items in a way where they would otherwise not be attainable
    • Lag switching (IE using your network setup to induce untimely lag on the opponent on purpose).

    Annoying/overcentralizing glitches:


    • Toggle Escape (alters weapon balance and viability negatively)
    • Dead angle WoG, or anything that hits from the front while blocking from the front
    • Lag stabs/distortion (not much you can do about it w/o servers, but still annoying)

    I don't see how a roll backstab isn't considered valid; you are locked and so will make an effort to punish, and it will only work on weapons that have a slow recover and/or are poorly timed. Even tickstabbing, ganks, and so forth are logical actions based on known in-game mechanics.

    I might catch flak for calling toggle escapes a glitch, but they 100% are. If a weapon is designed to stun-lock you and otherwise would, there is 0 logical reasoning that toggling at a specific timing would influence that. It bypasses some of the importance of poise (a big tradeoff mechanic in this game) and nerfs the viability of the bigger, heavier weapons...making the #weapons that are competitively viable smaller to a degree. I don't blame people for using it, but it IS a glitch and it DOES centralize the game.

    Dead angle WoG is just stupid. It is sensible for a wide swing arc that actually goes around a shield to hit, it is not sensible for something immediately in front of you to ignore your shield solely because the person is facing a different direction. Here too, it's powerful and makes sense to utilize it unless both parties agree ahead of time not to use it, but it's an overcentralizing factor in the game and quite glitchy.
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by swordiris on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:37 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:

    If it was not intended, they would have fixed it in the last 9 patches.
    Patch history across games suggests that this isn't true at all, despite the fact that it is a logical position.

    Besides, it is very possible that the issue is deep enough in the engine that fixing it is not viable on a cost basis.

    Obvious cheating:


    • Hacks
    • Glitches to duplicate items in a way where they would otherwise not be attainable
    • Lag switching (IE using your network setup to induce untimely lag on the opponent on purpose).

    Annoying/overcentralizing glitches:


    • Toggle Escape (alters weapon balance and viability negatively)
    • Dead angle WoG, or anything that hits from the front while blocking from the front
    • Lag stabs/distortion (not much you can do about it w/o servers, but still annoying)

    I don't see how a roll backstab isn't considered valid; you are locked and so will make an effort to punish, and it will only work on weapons that have a slow recover and/or are poorly timed. Even tickstabbing, ganks, and so forth are logical actions based on known in-game mechanics.

    I might catch flak for calling toggle escapes a glitch, but they 100% are. If a weapon is designed to stun-lock you and otherwise would, there is 0 logical reasoning that toggling at a specific timing would influence that. It bypasses some of the importance of poise (a big tradeoff mechanic in this game) and nerfs the viability of the bigger, heavier weapons...making the #weapons that are competitively viable smaller to a degree. I don't blame people for using it, but it IS a glitch and it DOES centralize the game.

    Dead angle WoG is just stupid. It is sensible for a wide swing arc that actually goes around a shield to hit, it is not sensible for something immediately in front of you to ignore your shield solely because the person is facing a different direction. Here too, it's powerful and makes sense to utilize it unless both parties agree ahead of time not to use it, but it's an overcentralizing factor in the game and quite glitchy.

    It doesn't matter if the developers intended a glitch or not. It is completely fair unless you didn't alter the game they put out (glitch free or not).


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Azrial on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:44 pm

    swordiris wrote:
    TheMeInTeam wrote:

    If it was not intended, they would have fixed it in the last 9 patches.
    Patch history across games suggests that this isn't true at all, despite the fact that it is a logical position.

    Besides, it is very possible that the issue is deep enough in the engine that fixing it is not viable on a cost basis.

    Obvious cheating:


    • Hacks
    • Glitches to duplicate items in a way where they would otherwise not be attainable
    • Lag switching (IE using your network setup to induce untimely lag on the opponent on purpose).

    Annoying/overcentralizing glitches:


    • Toggle Escape (alters weapon balance and viability negatively)
    • Dead angle WoG, or anything that hits from the front while blocking from the front
    • Lag stabs/distortion (not much you can do about it w/o servers, but still annoying)

    I don't see how a roll backstab isn't considered valid; you are locked and so will make an effort to punish, and it will only work on weapons that have a slow recover and/or are poorly timed. Even tickstabbing, ganks, and so forth are logical actions based on known in-game mechanics.

    I might catch flak for calling toggle escapes a glitch, but they 100% are. If a weapon is designed to stun-lock you and otherwise would, there is 0 logical reasoning that toggling at a specific timing would influence that. It bypasses some of the importance of poise (a big tradeoff mechanic in this game) and nerfs the viability of the bigger, heavier weapons...making the #weapons that are competitively viable smaller to a degree. I don't blame people for using it, but it IS a glitch and it DOES centralize the game.

    Dead angle WoG is just stupid. It is sensible for a wide swing arc that actually goes around a shield to hit, it is not sensible for something immediately in front of you to ignore your shield solely because the person is facing a different direction. Here too, it's powerful and makes sense to utilize it unless both parties agree ahead of time not to use it, but it's an overcentralizing factor in the game and quite glitchy.

    It doesn't matter if the developers intended a glitch or not. It is completely fair unless you didn't alter the game they put out (glitch free or not).


    What do you think about instances where there was a glitch that was later patched out but anyone found to have used it was banned from the game ?
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:45 pm

    I didn't say they were unfair, I just said they are overcentralizing. There is a difference.

    I will use anything I can to win that the game lets you do, although I would also happily agree to rules that allow variety away from overcentralized gameplay.

    Backstabs, however, are an important facet of the game to punish certain actions. It is certainly possible if one wants to completely avoid being backstabbed in any given duel, but most are willing to risk taking one for various reasons.

    What do you think about instances where there was a glitch that was later patched out but anyone found to have used it was banned from the game ?

    I think that would be an instance of the developers committing theft.

    I don't mind glitched characters not working after a patch, but banning people from the game outright due to what is essentially a developer error in the first place would cross not just a moral, but a legal line in my eyes.
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by GrinTwist on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:49 pm

    Cheating?

    Well I find that is an umbrella term for more things to fall under. Hacking can be considered cheating, BSing someone while bowing for a duel could be considered cheating by the victim, and megamuling could be considered cheating by some too.

    Personally, I find that the only form of cheating in Dark Souls is hacking, everything else can only be considered cheating by the player's standards.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:51 pm

    Duping and hacking are obviously cheating.

    The backstabs I think were intended.

    The Dead angle may have been, but it is in my opinion an exploit of lag basically- it shouldn't be possible to dead angle if you're locked onto someone and moving but it happens anyway.. I wonder why Shrug


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:53 pm

    GrinTwist wrote:Cheating?

    Well I find that is an umbrella term for more things to fall under. Hacking can be considered cheating, BSing someone while bowing for a duel could be considered cheating by the victim, and megamuling could be considered cheating by some too.

    Personally, I find that the only form of cheating in Dark Souls is hacking, everything else can only be considered cheating by the player's standards.

    You do not need any hacks to lag-switch someone, but it is most definitely cheating. Done properly it is absolutely impossible to win against it; the screen will freeze for about 1.5 seconds and then you're on the ground after being backstabbed. Then, it will freeze for another 1.5 seconds and you die.

    Fortunately, it's very very very uncommon in DS, though you used to see reasonably often in games like Halo 3 and as of a few months ago it was still very common in Madden. It can be done in any game that doesn't use servers.
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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by GrinTwist on Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:58 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:
    GrinTwist wrote:Cheating?

    Well I find that is an umbrella term for more things to fall under. Hacking can be considered cheating, BSing someone while bowing for a duel could be considered cheating by the victim, and megamuling could be considered cheating by some too.

    Personally, I find that the only form of cheating in Dark Souls is hacking, everything else can only be considered cheating by the player's standards.

    You do not need any hacks to lag-switch someone, but it is most definitely cheating. Done properly it is absolutely impossible to win against it; the screen will freeze for about 1.5 seconds and then you're on the ground after being backstabbed. Then, it will freeze for another 1.5 seconds and you die.

    Fortunately, it's very very very uncommon in DS, though you used to see reasonably often in games like Halo 3 and as of a few months ago it was still very common in Madden. It can be done in any game that doesn't use servers.

    That would be why I didn't mention it, I've never had to deal with it before. I would say that would be another form of cheating too. Sorry about that. silly


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by Odinbear on Fri Jun 07, 2013 2:41 pm

    Only 2 I see are the hacking , for sure and the duping. Never had 198 divne blessings. No merchants sell them, I don't think they can be farmed.

    Everything else that might seem unfair, may only be a rule in that manual you made up in your head.


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    Re: What is cheating ?

    Post by swordiris on Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:12 pm

    Yeah lag switching is cheating too.

    With that being said I wouldn't accuse anyone of it. They might genuinely have a bad connection.


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