Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Dibsville on Sun Jun 23, 2013 7:54 pm

    StiffNipples wrote:At long range CSS does more than Dark Bead, but up close nothing does more damage than Dark Bead if all the beads hit.

    I recently hit a hacker for about 5.8k damage. CSS was doing about half of that (hacker had ~15k HP).
    Actually, that is completely dependent on your items.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by StiffNipples on Sun Jun 23, 2013 8:53 pm

    That was using the Manus Catalyst, same as Carver mentioned.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by samster628 on Mon Jun 24, 2013 3:15 am

    My solutions to problems with the online community:
    Reduce lag (no shed): i could live with the fact that almost every fight is a fishing expedition but when they manage to backstab you when you are behind them in what would be the perfect place to backstab them is stupid. We know from is working on this but they can never fully eliminate lag.
    Make parrys and backstabs harder to do that means reducing the angle range for backstabs and making it you you dont get parry spammers (longer missed parry recovery?). This would also symbolize sneak attacks better. Even when you sneak up on someone you can still make a mess of things if you are not careful. From is meant to be working on this as well.
    No invinciframes. Too many people can just roll through your attacks its BS. and when you get backstabed and your summons are beating the crap out of your foe for 0 damage. This is being sorted as well.
    So in short i think the vast majority of PvP problems in dark souls are set to be fixed in DS2. Weather it will add problems of its own though i cannot say.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Jun 26, 2013 3:55 pm

    You're wishing for the impossible. There will always be lag. I assume you wouldknow that, and can't quite understand why you continue to validate the counter-argument. Its perplexing.

    Actually lag on the scale we see it in this game is inexcusable.  Modern net code shouldn't allow this on P2P unless the connection is VERY bad or the person is across the world.  I've seen pvp where both people have sub-80 pings in other, better programmed (net code wise) games wind up with latency delays more comparable a USA-Australia connection in Dark Souls.  The net code is lollerbad and Dibs is 100% justified in blaming that as a primary culprit.  People who routinely get 50-80ms connections to each other should not be seeing long, highly-noticeable delays in dark souls PvP.

    As for stabs doing too much damage, without the lag it would be very, very difficult to secure stabs on someone unless they really left themselves open; that's a balanced mechanic in that case.  Dark magic's damage output is a big more questionable, but is an example of one of those tactics where a guy leaves himself open, not to mention there are several hard-counters to it.





    Gotten so much hate mail from kick --> backstab kills.



    Unlocked, right?  I never seem to be able to execute locked backstabs other than roll BS, but I don't have much trouble with pivots/tickstabs.  Dead angle kick-->BS is pretty much the same concept as WoG or Force -->BS...but I do these things unlocked since that seems far more consistent.



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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jun 26, 2013 5:49 pm

    I wouldn't say the lag is inexcusable all the time.  I've had really good connections with people in my region and abroad.  With that said, I've had horrible lag with people only of couple states away.

    I would agree with the lag in Dark Souls being consistently inconsistent though.  You'd think with the design and complexity that went into creating such a different pvp/co-op game play style, there would have been an extensive critique as to whether it would function properly when completed and therefore sold as a working product.

    What gets me is the p2p connection and the open world design as opposed to the nexus in Demon's Souls.  Take Darkroot Forest for example.  You're supposed to be "enclosed" by the fog doors, but can summon someone and go fight the Hydra....that's got be unnecessary processing hell for the coding.  How could they have thought this was "acceptable" from a finished and working product standpoint? Not to mention Lower Blighttown.

    Don't get me wrong, it doesn't ruin the game for me, being summoned by my red soapstone and getting jumped kinda ruins it for me.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:22 pm; edited 8 times in total (Reason for editing : SHPELING/grammer/grammer/not to mention Lower Blighttown)
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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by emraluces on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:28 pm

    It's looking like From has entirely revamped the magic system. In my estimation, it is highly unlikely we'll see the same spells in Dark Souls 2. It looks like From has done away with the pyro glove, as fire blasts are now among the spells. So, if pyromancies from The Great Swamp aren't in the lore, then it stands the location for DKS2 is far enough (geographically or historically) from the areas we explored in Dark Souls as to warrant a new list of spells and possibly miracles as well. 

    Bottom line, this is a new game and the gripes of old that pvp'erthis had with DKS will very likely be non issues in DKS2. That said, however, this game, too, will have a 'most powerful' spell and weapon and strategy. All's left is for players to find them. Once they're found, you'll all have new 'unbeatable' strategies to complain about. 

    Bottom line, it is a pointless conversation to have, one where we discuss how From needs to weaken Dark Bead and the like, as those spells very likely won't see a resurgence in DKS2, and no one here can possibly know what new spells/strategies will be available to us in DKS2.

    Also, every journalist I've read who had hands on time with the game at E3 has mentioned an increased difficulty in landing backstabs/ripostes. So your worries at least in that regard, should be somewhat quelled. 

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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Jun 26, 2013 8:36 pm

    AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

    The Roll is SYMBOLIC. It represents a dodge, which does NOT require you to be out of the weapons range to do. Invincibility frames are to ENFORCE that symbol, otherwise rolling (read: DODGING) is completely useless compared to a decent shield.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:38 am

    What gets me is the p2p connection and the open world design as opposed to the nexus in Demon's Souls.  Take Darkroot Forest for example.  You're supposed to be "enclosed" by the fog doors, but can summon someone and go fight the Hydra....that's got be unnecessary processing hell for the coding.  How could they have thought this was "acceptable" from a finished and working product standpoint? Not to mention Lower Blighttown.

    How many things really need to be updated over the internet in a connection between 2 players?  This isn't a disgrace like civ V where it sends *possible* worker actions over the connection or something I'd hope.  You'd mostly want to be tracking the player locations and actions with the online connection, and syncing to a degree.  One would hope the rendering of the areas is done locally and that information isn't passed online; I don't see why they'd want to do that.  It seems they do send unnecessary information though, at least to some extent.  Host advantage (or anybody's advantage) on 100ms or less connection should be extremely marginal; most human beings can't see a button change color and click it in under 200ms.  We're seeing in game delays or hit detection that are in some cases in the realm of 5x longer than either player's latency, or more.  I'm obviously excited and thankful for servers, but seriously P2P could have been MUCH better than it was in Dark Souls.

    Don't get me wrong, it doesn't ruin the game for me, being summoned by my red soapstone and getting jumped kinda ruins it for me.

    I always felt that things like path of dragon and red soapstone signs should only be available to hosts with no phantoms, and that attempting to summon a phantom will cancel the invasion.  Yes, the host could still summon post-invasion, but depending on where the red sign was that would be a dicey prospect (IE if he tries it the phantom just kills him) and the red would always have a chance.  It'd have cut down on the ganking vs an item that uses the rare word "honorable" in its description.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by passivefamiliar on Thu Jun 27, 2013 12:05 pm

    this is the kind of dream that will never be possible. so many ideas. so many possibilities. but its endless. without being specific to this game. (im very anti magic, i hate dark bead. it owns me to often) its never going to be perfect. its player vs player. there are either not enough possibilites to be interesting. or to many to tweak and make some OP weapon/technique.

    i want dark souls 2 to be balacned too, id really enjoy fair fights where when i lost i knew it was because the other guy was better than me. not because he quick switched to a magic wand and unloaded a spell on me. under handed tactics are fine, its pvp...i dont expect everyone to be honor bound. but when a single shot can kill you...its rough and frustrating.

    but i'd rather it stay unfair, than become boring. as much as i hate unfair deaths, boring games are even worse.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by samster628 on Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:38 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

    The Roll is SYMBOLIC. It represents a dodge, which does NOT require you to be out of the weapons range to do. Invincibility frames are to ENFORCE that symbol, otherwise rolling (read: DODGING) is completely useless compared to a decent shield.

     Bull crap. Dodging is a different thing entirely IE when you tap circle without pushing on an analogue stick. A dodge in no way makes you invincible anyways so... yeah.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Brodyzera on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:07 pm

    Dark Magic has to be one of the easiest things to dodge in this game.

    Pursuers - Hide behind a tree/column
    Dark Bead - roll


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by SadPanda on Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:29 pm

    Brodyzera wrote:
    Pursuers - Hide behind a tree/column
    Do that against someone from another country, not going to work. The lag will literally make it so the pursuers hit you, even if it hits objects.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Brodyzera on Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:43 pm

    SadPanda wrote:
    Brodyzera wrote:
    Pursuers - Hide behind a tree/column
    Do that against someone from another country, not going to work. The lag will literally make it so the pursuers hit you, even if it hits objects.
    You can say that about anything in PvP though silly


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by StiffNipples on Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:54 pm

    Just because you can dodge it doesn't make it not OP and cheap.


    It's not that you can dodge it, it's what happens when you don't dodge it.


    Dark Bead is essentially WotG for Int builds. It's a fast spell that breaks poise and has a decent spread (it makes up for lacking WotG 360deg arc by having much more range).

    However, it's also got 2x as many casts, and requires half the stats to use.

    What's more is that there is a catalyst available to int users that's not available to faith users that massively increases the damage of the spells. Sure it halves the number of casts, but since Dark Bead has twice the casts of WotG anyway all this does is bring it back to par.

    So now you've got two similar spells, with similar casts, except one is more than 3x as powerful (I'll post a vid of me testing this if you want).

    Benefits of WotG is that you can dead angle with it.

    Also Dark Magic is far more powerfull than other spells. Get someone with Havels shield and have them block and CSS then have them block DB or Pursuers, the chip damage and guard break damage is insane compared to Soul magics.


    Sorry for the rant, but I f**king hate the Dark Magics, their lore feels tacked on, they feel like they're only in the game as incentive to buy the DLC and they feel like they were barely tested.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:58 pm

    @stiff

    16 intelligence for DB is ridiculous...I agree completely.

    If you want "easy mode" buy the dlc and make a sorcerer.

    DB is op.

    And for anyone that says, "It can be dodged".....let's fight. Well What is it ...

    ...after 18 casts with my DWGR, you're health will be at 50%, dodging, no dodging......

    16 int.....FROM!!!!!...WTF?!?!?! Look Skyward 
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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:02 am

    samster628 wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

    The Roll is SYMBOLIC. It represents a dodge, which does NOT require you to be out of the weapons range to do. Invincibility frames are to ENFORCE that symbol, otherwise rolling (read: DODGING) is completely useless compared to a decent shield.

     Bull crap. Dodging is a different thing entirely IE when you tap circle without pushing on an analogue stick. A dodge in no way makes you invincible anyways so... yeah.
    They symbolise the same thing, the backstep is shorter and has to be better timed but gives you more time to counter attack before they can respond, akin to leaning back to avoid a strike (which can quicly be turned into a thrust on the dodgers part) instead jumping to avoid a strike (where an attack so soon after the initial movement (meaning the person is still in the air) would unbalance the person.


    Dodging doesn't make you invincible, I never said it did. The roll is symbolic of a dodge. One can with a quick hop or duck or side step let an attack continue at full momentem without hitting them, while inside the reach of said weapon. That is the ability invincibity frames ( in both the backstep and the roll) represent.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by arshan272 on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:59 pm

    emraluces wrote:It's looking like From has entirely revamped the magic system. In my estimation, it is highly unlikely we'll see the same spells in Dark Souls 2. It looks like From has done away with the pyro glove, as fire blasts are now among the spells. So, if pyromancies from The Great Swamp aren't in the lore, then it stands the location for DKS2 is far enough (geographically or historically) from the areas we explored in Dark Souls as to warrant a new list of spells and possibly miracles as well. 

    Bottom line, this is a new game and the gripes of old that pvp'erthis had with DKS will very likely be non issues in DKS2. That said, however, this game, too, will have a 'most powerful' spell and weapon and strategy. All's left is for players to find them. Once they're found, you'll all have new 'unbeatable' strategies to complain about. 

    Bottom line, it is a pointless conversation to have, one where we discuss how From needs to weaken Dark Bead and the like, as those spells very likely won't see a resurgence in DKS2, and no one here can possibly know what new spells/strategies will be available to us in DKS2.

    Also, every journalist I've read who had hands on time with the game at E3 has mentioned an increased difficulty in landing backstabs/ripostes. So your worries at least in that regard, should be somewhat quelled. 

    -Emraluces

     Or it could be an archtree staff that allows for pyromancy and sorcery, like the Beast Talisman. Although I really hope it's just all new.
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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Jul 31, 2013 5:26 pm

    arshan272 wrote: Or it could be an archtree staff that allows for pyromancy and sorcery, like the Beast Talisman. Although I really hope it's just all new.

     I've read it will be, I don't have the sources filed or anything but you can look. Pyromancies will be flame sorceries, similar to DeS, as part of the lore this happened before those sorceries were lost and pryomancy was developed as it's primitive successor.

    As far as Dark Magic goes, I admire the idea and as a game that's themed on light vs. dark, I think dark magics should be included. Not how they've been done however. To put an end to OP magic I think casting time should curve with spell power. I don't see anything wrong with the Int requirement nor the actual power of the attack, what's OP is the cast time for strong magics. Dark Bead should in no way be insta-cast. But I think they're implementing a charge spell mechanic that will do something similar to this, though it remains to be seen.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:39 am

    Dark bead isn't insta cast.  They have to pull the catalyst out, then lift it, then it charges momentarily before firing that death shotgun.  The only thing that's silly about it is the kinds of damage it can output for the investment it takes to get it.

    I find even half-competent weapon play far more threatening than a heavily telegraphed dark bead attack.  Beads are almost useless if the person firing them doesn't set them up somehow.  I can't see someone even being viable with it unless they go shieldless and dual-wield the catalyst+weapon, and use beads as a change up or trade method.  If they have to SWITCH to the catalyst, their odds of doing anything without the aid of extreme lag (which is a screw job regardless) plummet drastically.
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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:21 pm

    TheMeInTeam wrote:Dark bead isn't insta cast.  They have to pull the catalyst out, then lift it, then it charges momentarily before firing that death shotgun.  The only thing that's silly about it is the kinds of damage it can output for the investment it takes to get it.

     Okay, I was exaggerating. But it's close enough to an insta-cast in relation to the charge of many other spells, similar to WotG; in Demons Souls, it had to be charged and timed and couldn't be exploited or spammed. The same rule should apply for any magic that powerful, my point is simply that it's cast-time is unreal. hurry up  Even Dark Orb is much slower and it's a single shot, so da ***? Furthermore, it's most efficient to wield Manus Catalyst for Dark Magic, most casters like this will have it equipped as their main and utilize it's mediocre melee functions when appropriate.The Murgence   So, in my experience at least, they aren't often 'switching' to a catalyst as much as they already have it out.

    I've only used Dark Magic with chameleon, so I'd just pop out of no where and cast dark bead to the face while I'm still in the haze of transformation, virtually no reaction time. Or I stay in chameleon and hide a single pursuer in it with me. And that was just an anti-invader strategy. I've only used it a few times in full-on PvP, and most people were able to get around it as time has passed. Even so if I'm to blind-side them for even a split second, that split second is all the time one needs to cast Dark Bead all-up-in-yo-grill.Mage   You Died


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by arshan272 on Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:08 pm

    At this point, we may draw three conclusions
    First is that dark bead should have much higher str/int requirements,
    Second, that Dark Orb should have much longer range.
    Third, tha dark magic is being moved to miracles so who knows what the hell that implies.
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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 3:58 pm

    arshan272 wrote:
    Third, tha dark magic is being moved to miracles so who knows what the hell that implies.

    It would match an occult weapon build rather appropriately.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:15 pm

    Just because you can dodge it doesn't make it not OP and cheap.

    It's not that you can dodge it, it's what happens when you don't dodge it.

    Overpowered arguments carry a higher burden than this.  The real question is how frequently it wins compared to other builds, and in terms of that I don't see dark magic standing out compared to similar commonly-used weapons/spells/tactics such as buffs, WoG tickstab, hornet criticals, and stunlocks.


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    Re: Fixing a big problem in the onlie community

    Post by Undiscovery on Wed Aug 07, 2013 5:35 pm

    Meln, I can always seem to agree with the **** you say. :Beer:


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