Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:53 am

    Read the rules. Lightning weapons are out, +5 max. Leo ring is out, it's, MotM is out, Dark Hand is out.


    Also there isn't too much efficiency going on in SL10, just make something that looks cool as you'll die in two hits either way.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by RANT on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:59 am

    lol im pretty sure he didn't read the op.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by wretchedsausage on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:06 am

    RANT wrote:lol im pretty sure he didn't read the op.

    Not even a little bit...


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:16 am

    More generally I don't think limiting Dusk or BDCR is the right way to prevent pyro spam from being everyone's build. We can simply make the flame weaker, say +10 only or +5 only if +10 is still too much. The reason I would favor this approach is currently Sorcery is just not worth it. Resin is so close to the bonus Magic Weapon would be giving that plan is basically out. With no dusk spells the trickiest thing a mage could do is Aural decoy... Since there wont be any DLC stuff I don't think Sorcery would get out of hand (no dark magic at 16 int with OiC basically) But with the most useful looking spell being Magic Shield... I just don't think anyone is going to touch their Int stat.

    Heck I even found a use for a faith build http://mmdks.com/2l3f Sure it's all about force stun into damage, but it's at least something. Every Int build I attempt to make, a shortbow and resin just seems so much better.

    Also You missed some weapons/armor on the spreadsheet. I'm just going to list the ones I know are obtainable in those areas without beating Gargs or Kellogs (not beating the goyles was a part of the rules, and oswald isn't a listen vendor)

    Gargoyle Tail Axe
    Gargoyle Halberd
    Gargoyle Helm
    Gargoyle shield

    These are a technicality, you can kill the first Garg then suicide and potentially get any of the items from it, I've used this technique before to farm for the Halberd when I didn't want to wait til anor londo.

    These next ones are Also drops, mostly rare ones from our non respawning Berenike friend in the parish

    Great axe
    Great sword
    the Steel Armor set (while possible to get multiple drops I wonder what the chances of getting the full set actually is, perhaps allow one piece of the steel set, no using 3 pieces since it's absurd to restart enough times to actually get that as a drop)
    titanite Catch Pole (from the parish demon)

    And if the Lucerne is allowed and Laurentis is an allowed vendor, that means at least part of the catacombs is okay, and the Depths is certainly okay. The thing about the depths is that it allows for a few new items, notably the sack, which you'll likely get from the second butcher right after saving Laurentis, it's almost unavoidable to get the sack, and it's a fairly popular item that I think should probably be allowed.

    Other than the sack, the depths only really adds the heavy Xbow and the stuff Doomhall sells, the adventurer's set and crystal weapons. Which have AR in the same ballpark as already allowed weapons. And then there's Kirk's invasion which opens the door for the Barbed Sword and spikey shield.

    I'm just trying to get a feel for the limitations, I know the point is to NOT be super strong. But with limits on how far upgraded weapons can be, having access to more weapons doesn't seem like it would make for any problems. Like the Barbed sword from kirk, it's unique in that it's the only straight sword to cause bleed, but it still isn't very impressive at +5 it's just kind of a broadsword with bleed stuck on.
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:56 am

    Sorry, I read the whole thread but mugenmonkey keeps crashing on my PC at work so got lazy and copies a link to my current SL3...

    Either way though - SL10 is a GREAT idea!


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by wretchedsausage on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:04 pm

    Can somebody please explain how the invading takes place? Will i need to get red eye orbs from Kaathe?


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:17 pm

    reim0027 wrote:GLGS is hard to do with a SL 10 or lower. Gargoyle's Halberd is pretty darn good too.

    Why would it be hard? Here's a GLGS build:

    http://mmdks.com/2l41

    This would also be really nasty on newer players but fits your rules:

    http://mmdks.com/2l43

    Drake Sword Build:

    http://mmdks.com/2l45


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:20 pm

    Jan - I see your points. The Catacombs are off limits, so the Lucerne is not allowed. I consent to your Depths area. We can include that if there isn't any strong weapons there (is Kirk's sword too powerful)?. About the BDCR, I feel it may make pyro too powerful. The point of this is to make it so you can't kill the low level players in a few hits. You have to work at it, and therefore, they stand a better chance.

    And, for lightning buff, you only get a very few of them, so use them wisely.

    Teh - Oolacile and BDCR is not allowed.

    Wretched - if you want to get the Red Eye Orb, then you'll have to beat the 4 kings, of find someone who has so they can give you cracked Orbs. I have a SL 6 that is a Darkwraith (+3, legit). I can get anyone as much as they need.

    Stiff - thanks for the link. I can include it in the OP, which I will edit later today with the current rules as they stand. Another +1 to you.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Mon Jun 03, 2013 1:59 pm

    Man, you should really update the OPENING post with the actual new rules . I'll have to redo the builds.

    4 kings with an elemental or crystal halberd buffed or some such shouldn't be too bad. Granted, we couldn't use that for the actual invasions but for the purposes of getting the orb it'd bring the difficulty down. Heck, you could even use ascended pyro +5 great combustions to beat them and then just not use it for the invasions too and in regular NG ascended +5 boosted GCs (bellowing, dusk) are ridiculous and trivialize the fight. If you want to beat them without grinding something you might not otherwise use, you'll have to dodge more though .

    So, how many people are just going to throw dung pies + poison knives and then backstab with an estoc +5 if they try to stop the poison ^_^?

    Edit:

    If we're going to ban things like power within due to them being over-centralized, we also need to ban things like black knight sword +5. It's very, very unlikely that a new player would get this weapon, head into the great hollow, farm up twinkling titanite, and max out this weapon pre-gargoyle.

    It would also be over-centralizing, since an AR of 418 like so:

    http://mmdks.com/2l5b

    Wouldn't be hard to attain then, when otherwise it'd be nearly impossible with these rules (just make the bow +5 instead, we only care about it to poison anyway or finish off very weak flaskers).

    Otherwise, we'd just see nonsense like the above or this:

    http://mmdks.com/2l5l
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:47 pm

    Ok. I'll update the first post. I see what you mean about the BKS. Even with the bare stats, it is pretty powerful. That is the only Black Black Knight weapon that could be used with SL < 10. I'll add it to the list.

    Another thing to add is Humanity. Humanity should start at 0. And, you have to earn each humanity via host kills.

    Stiff, can you update the spreadsheet to remove Black Knight Weapons?


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Dusk Soul on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:03 pm

    Hey Reim what do you mean by this?: "Can only use Dragon Scales where you didn't kill an enemy to obtain them."

    Does it means we can only use Dragon Scales we find in say Blightown's pit chest (which is the only free one accessible I think, since Ash Lake is off limits)
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:13 pm

    That's what I mean. LOL. I probably could have worded that better. I'll go change it.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Dusk Soul on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:20 pm

    Cool, I'm still fighting a little with this build, though.
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by The_Red_Drifter on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:05 pm

    I have been off and on doing a SL 1 run, so I'm already all set for it. I do have a couple of questions, though.
    I ascended my flame, is there a way someone can give me a second one? I don't meet stats for Eingyi's flame.
    All of my armor is +6, is this a big issue? And if so, can I at keep the +6 sack? +6 is the cap for Large Shard armor upgrading, for reference.

    Build, for reference:
    http://mmdks.com/2lcy
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:07 pm

    While this started out as a challenge with the intent of fooling around with new players, I think it's turning/turned into the foundations of an event.

    For the purposes of making that possible you will have to beat Quelaag and the Gargoyles and get the RSS. HOWEVER, the build should still adhere to the limitations placed by only allowing items that (realistically) a new player would be able to attain.

    That means that Dusks gear is out, and getting that Drake Sword is fine, but upgrading it to +5 is out, as no new player is going to do before beating the Gargs.
    The challenge is to make an effective and powerful build within the scope of the rules, but the rules also need to be such that they create balance.

    Gold Pine I think will be too OP, plus you only get 3 without the Forest, so it seems silly to allow them.

    Good points Jan, I'll add the Gargoyle weapons tonight.
    I also would like to see some Sack action, and the BarbSS and Crystal weapons I think should be allowed, however the chance of getting the Steel Set is so remote that I think it's easier just to say it's not allowed. I would like to see some Greatsword action too, however I have about 1500hrs in this game and I've never got it to drop from either of the Knights, and only once have I ever got the Greataxe. The Greataxe is available in the Depths however you need to be at least SL11 to use it.
    titanite Catch Pole would be cool as well, again though the chances of drop are pretty slim, however I've had it happen a few times. It does however have pretty high base damage, however it won't be able to be upgraded, so it might be alright.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:16 pm

    Yeah Reim I'll go through it tonight and remove weapons that aren't viable. For example, although there are all the Black Knight weapons there, only one can be used without going past SL10, and there are a few other strength weapons that can't be used because the most str you can have is 21, and a few require 22 or more just to two hand them.

    I think upgrades wise Weapons should only be allowed to be upgraded to +5 or +5 RAW, armour should be fine to use Large Shards but nothing above that (so no Chunks).


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:11 am

    It probably doesn't make much of a difference with armor at +6. I guess I would prefer armor to be shards only (+3), since most of these people at this level aren't farming large shards.

    Any thoughts on this?


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Jansports on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:28 am

    My pleas to allow Dusk stem from a desire to see as many unique builds as possible. With just Griggs/Rickert INT based builds will be out classed by pretty much everything. Dusk's spells do offer some interesting options. Hidden weapon has been a favorite of mine under certain circumstances as it makes parrying more difficult. Chameleon is another odd spell that has proven to be not just useful but fun. And as I've pointed out Magic Weapon with the OiC adds 144 damage, which makes it actually worth using over charcoal resin. Where without access to the OiC MW will only add 95 damage @ 16 int. While technically better than resin it's so marginal it hardly seems worth the attunement slot and stat investment.

    It's perfectly reasonable to be worried that Pyromancy will be out of hand. But besides limiting options like Crown or BDCR which also negatively impact the much worse off sorcery, we can simply tone down how far the flame is allowed to be upgraded. If we find that Combustion is doing too much damage simply limit the flame to +10, +5 + 6 + 2, whatever ends up being a level where the damage is accptable.

    I only bring this up because as it stands there is zero reason to choose to invest in Int at all. GHSA isn't exactly the most pvp friendly spell, and MW currently is equal to an item anyone can use. Magic Shield is perhaps the one available spell that could have some use. And that's really a shame. I would prefer if more builds were viable, and I think we could make Int builds viable with Dusk stuff, and that doesn't have to make pyromancy too strong.

    I also think +5 RAW is an acceptable upgrade level for weapons. Using the Jagged Ghost Blade as a base, as it is an allowed weapon that unlike the BKS or Catch Pole it doesn't have absurd AR. It sits right around 220. Looking over most weapons +5 raw is a good equivocation for that level of AR. Faster weapons like the Falchion and Rapier are a little lower, while heavier more stat intense weapons are a little higher (halberd bastard sword)

    Just out of curiosity How much damage should Combustion be doing? What's a "fair" number? 250-275ish or so? That's 3 full hits to kill an average build at sl10 (using the builds in this thread as a base) Many of the build would actually be alive after 3 hits but just barely.

    About Armor. I think +6 is reasonable, there's large shards to be had in both Btown and the depths, not to mention the great hallow lizards but I could also see the argument for limiting it to +3. But seeing as we've been instructed to not go into things with a ton of humanity I doubt defences will be so high that our SL10s are impervious to damage.
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Tue Jun 04, 2013 12:28 am

    Making it Shards only is easy and less confusing than 'shards for this, large shards for that, twinkling for that, etc'.

    So yeah, Shards only is easy.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:06 am

    I see your point about Oolacile's magic. I personally feel the the OIC is too much for this level, since barely anyone will beat Hydra at that low of SL. That's my main concern about it.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Jansports on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:11 am

    Well besides Magic Weapon there aren't any real scary offensive options for sorcery. Great Soul Arrow is probably the most usable of the spells and thats kinda....uhh. I've tried and it doesn't hit so often.

    Though I do see your point about the hydra, a lot of new players will encounter it, but actually beating it is another story. Heck my first time I had huge problems just getting to the knight set.
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by reim0027 on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:16 am

    Magic will be tough at this low SL. But, imagine a dagger BS with 22 int and magic weapon? Or, just a dagger R1 spam with magic weapon. Even with a sorcerer's catalyst, that will be powerful.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Jansports on Tue Jun 04, 2013 1:52 am

    Man everyone's been on the dagger's nuts lately. Yeah it swings fast but even with a buff (120 added damage if you spend everything on Int starting as a sorcerer) That's a total of what about 220 Split AR. That's really not impressive. At least to me, compared to other things it doesn't seem all that threatening.
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by wretchedsausage on Tue Jun 04, 2013 2:59 am

    So for clarification:

    Weapons are allowed to be upgraded +5 raw, or +5 normal.
    Armour may be upgraded to +3.
    Charcoal pine resin is in, and gold pine resin is out.
    is this correct?


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by wretchedsausage on Tue Jun 04, 2013 3:22 am

    Also, how achievable is it for a guy on his third playthrough to beat O&S and 4 Kings at SL10? Is it something I can achievably do, or will I be able to summon other people doing this to help me?


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