Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by steveswede on Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:25 pm

    reim0027 wrote:The jagged ghost blade was as question mark for me as well. Do you really think a new/low SL character will be able to easily obtain that?

    As for Valley of the Drakes, about the only thing there is the RTSR and Brigand's armor, right? You do get the witch cloak after beating the 4 kings, so that one is out. I don't think it is fair to go pilaging in New Londo looking for items (like the composite bow).

    I amended the proposed list of rules.

    If you two hand the drake sword on ghosts, I think you can take them out with two or three hits and the drop is about the same as a black knight weapon. Also parrying dagger should be allowed considering it's not too deep in there. As for the composite bow, it's not going to be mega powerful due to +5 limit.

    Valley of the Drakes is for farming dragon scales and the guaranteed scale from the undead dragon (I say this because the undead dragon was one of my first big enemies I defeated when I first got the game, it's also when I thought black bombs were really useful).
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Sun Jun 02, 2013 8:52 pm

    I would agree that Comp bow is out, however Ghost Blade should be allowed, I managed to get one on a few of my characters when I went to get the Firekeeper soul down there. Comp Bow however is way out of a new players league, as would be something like the Dark Hand.

    Eko wrote:I feel like the limitations need to be more precisely defined. For instance, I don't think I have ever seen an SL10 with the Stone Set, DWGR, anything from Shiva, etc. I know those areas open up more creativity, but it feels like the term "fair" and "easy to obtain" need a bit more precision.
    For instance, a lightning uchigatana doesn't seem fair to me especially since we are only supposed to go to +5 on a weapon meaning elemental weapons should be impossible on this build. Deep into the Catacombs should also be more clear as I would suggest the Gravelord Sword would be deep into the Catacombs while the Great Scythe may not be.

    The rules said "without beating the Gargoyles". This immeadiately rules out Sens, and any Lightning weapons. Also Vamos is off limits and a Gravelord Sword (I thought about using this earlier) won't be able to be upgraded much due to Sens not being open for Demon titanite farming. I would also say the Great Scythe is deeper in the Catacombs than the Gravelord Sword, but the Gravelord Sword is more hidden than the Great Scythe. If you take the shortcut you get straight to the Gravelord Sword, however the Great Scyther requires you to go through and turn the bridges. Potentially you can easily get the GvLS without killing anything.
    I think the Lucerne should be allowed, but not the GvLS or the GS.

    Addressing the new rules:

    Say that we went the Drake Sword, do you think that getting this to +5 is within the rules? Personally I don't see it happening, Drake farming is a pain in the a**, not to mention it's 10k per level, and if we can't scrounge up 20k to open the Forest, then I don't see anyone getting 50k to upgrade the sword to +5.

    Also the Falchion can be obtained by farming the Catacombs or through Upper Blighttown, since both of these are off limits, would this weapon be allowed? Similarly Power Within, allowed or part of Upper Blighttown? I can see Eagle Shield and PW being off limits, however Falchion is with the Wanderers Set, and isn't all that high up.

    Also Ash Lake too far?


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Sun Jun 02, 2013 9:16 pm

    Oh, is Gold Pine Resin allowed?

    You find 3 in the Undead Burg, but farming requires access to the Forest, so I would think no.
    And with Dusk being off limits the Oolacile MW Warrior is out too, so that puts MW more on par with Charcoal Resin.

    EDIT: Another thing, you've written "Darkroot Garden" but not allowed things from Shiva, I guessing you mean Darkroot Garden minus anything past the Crest of Artorias door?


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Eko on Sun Jun 02, 2013 10:15 pm

    I am personally fine with the rules as they stand in reim0027's most recent posting of them. It makes sense for the Catacombs to be off limits as I didn't start making runs in there to get items until I beat the game about three times and watched YouTube videos on it. Same goes for Valley of the Drakes; most of the people posting here probably make a run at the start of a new play-through and grab all the items we want or need. I know I personally hit every area possible before I do the gargoyles in the parish. It's been I don't know how long since I fought the Taurus demon too. The main point is most of the people on this post, aside from myself, seem to be relatively experienced players and thus things that are easy to get for you are not easy to get for a completely new person to Dark Souls. That is what I took this to be about; playing with a PvP comparable to what items a brand new player would access. This means to me both parts of the Burg, Darkroot Garden as it pertains to the moonlight butterfly portion, Darkroot Basin and possibly the section of Blight Town accessed by the shortcut. I know some of you are going to disagree with me and that's all fine and well. This is just what I took this post to mean.

    Tl;dr - Build made by a fresh DkS player would include items from: Darkroot Garden, Darkroot Basin, both parts of the Burg and possibly some of Blight Town. Anymore seems like a stretch for SL10 and new players.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:25 pm

    I agree with you, however for varieties sake, I would include weapons that would be considered a 'lucky drop'. For example Black Knight Weapons.

    Now I didn't get a single Black Knight weapon until the Kiln on my first 3 or 4 playthroughs because I seem to roll the least lucky players on Earth (I honestly didn't think they dropped weapons), but many new players do get those drops, so I think things like that should be included (Large Club, Pickaxe, etc).

    I've done up a quick spreadsheet (hopefully this doens't break formatting, I can't access google docs atm)

    Allowable Areas
    Firelink Shrine Undead Burg (incl Lower) Undead Parish Darkroot Basin Darkroot Garden
    (Moonlight area)
    Early New Londo Valley of the Drakes Lower Blighttown Great Hollow
    Allowable
    Weapons
    Daggers Swords Large Swords Axes Catalysts
    Dagger Straight Sword Hilt (you cray!) Bastard Sword Hand Axe +15 Pyromancy Flame (unascended)
    Ghost Blade Broken Straight Sword Black Knight Sword Battle Axe
    Bandits Knife Broad Sword Claymore Butcher Knife Sorcerers Catalyst
    Thrusting Swords Short Sword Stone Greatsword Demons Great Axe Tin Banishment Catalyst
    Long Sword Zweihander Blunts Talisman
    Rapier Sunlight Straight Sword Black Knight Greatsword Thorolund Talisman
    Estoc Balder Side Sword Spears Club Canvas Talisman
    Mail Breaker Astora's Straight Sword Reinforced Club Sunlight Talisman
    Fist/Whips Drake Sword (+2 max) Spear Mace Bows
    Curved & Asian
    Swords
    Winged Spear Morning Star
    Caestus Pike Warpick Short Bow
    Whip Scimitar Partizan Pickaxe Long Bow
    Halberds Falchion Channerlers
    Trident (lucky you!)
    Blacksmith Hammer (you monster!) Light Crossbow
    Jagged Ghost Blade
    Halberd Uchigatana Moonlight Butterfly Horn Demons Greathammer
    Lucerne Server Great Club
    Black Knight Halberd Large Club
    Allowable
    Shields
    Small Shields Medium Shields Medium Shields Con't Large Shields Uniques
    Small Leather Shield East West Shield Hollow Soldier Shield Stone Great Shield Skull Lantern
    Leather Shield Wooden Shield Balder Shield Tower Shield (ha! As
    if anyone's that lucky)
    Target Shield Heater Shield Sunlight Shield
    Buckler Large Leather Shield Black Knight Shield
    Cracked Round Shield Knight Shield Dragon Crest Shield
    Warriors Round Shield Tower Knight Shield Crest Shield
    Red and White Round Shield Caduceus Kite Shield Grass Crest Shield
    Ceduceus Round Shield Spider Shield
    Plank Shield
    Crystal Ring Shield
    Allowable
    Rings
    Tiny Beings Ring Speckled Stoneplate
    Ring (you heartless bastard!)
    Blue Tearstone Ring Lingering Dragoncrest Ring Rusted Iron Ring
    Ring of Favour and Protection Cloranthy Ring Slumbering Dragoncrest Ring Old Witches Ring






    Havel's Ring
    Red Tearstone Ring Bellowing Dragoncrest Ring Wolf Ring Ring of Fog (?)
    Allowable
    Upgrades
    Normal +5 Raw (?) Magic +5 (?) Divine +5 (?) 1 Twinkling piece to +5
    Allowable
    Armour
    Starting Sets Light Sets Medium Sets Uniques
    Wanderer Set Hollow Soldier Set Chain Set Fang Boar Helm
    Thief Set Hollow Warrior Set Elite Knight Set Egg Head
    Bandit Set Hollow Thief Set Iron Set Dragon Form/Head (?)
    Hunter Set Dingy Set Balder Set
    Sorcerer Set Crimson Set
    Pyromancer Set
    Cleric Set
    Warrior Set
    Knight Set
    Allowable
    Magics
    Miracles Sorceries Pyromancies
    Force Soul Arrow Fireball
    Heal Great Soul Arrow Fire Orb
    Great Heal Excerpt Heavy Soul Arrow Flash Sweat
    Lightning Spear Great Heavy Soul Arrow Combustion
    Great Lightning Spear Homing Soulmass (?) Iron Flesh
    Homeward Hush Poison Mist
    Seek Guidance Soul Spear (?) Power Within (?)
    Remedy
    Magic Shield
    Magic Weapon
    Aural Decoy
    Fall Control


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Eko on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:27 pm

    Yeah you got an upvote for that one, not only helpful here, but in general

    Maybe a spread sheet of weapon, items and their locations could be a sticky thread somewhere. Upload it to Google Drive and post a link to it on the forums. Would be a lovely tool.

    EDIT: 6/2/2013 10:28pm


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:36 pm

    Thanks man.

    Good idea, I'll whip one up tonight, tabs for each item (shield, weapons, spells, etc), just so that if someone wants to make a spreadsheet for a tourny or themed fight club all they have to do it copy/pasta from it.


    Last edited by StiffNipples on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:38 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:37 pm

    Can I get a link for that spreadsheet? It is a little big to fit on my screen. And, IMO, If the weapons are obtainable in the allowed areas, they are fair game. So, BKH or BKGS. Not that it would be very good using them at SL 10.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Eko on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:39 pm

    It would be quite a shame if we don't have a SL10 event after all the work put into that spreadsheet and setting up the rules


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Sun Jun 02, 2013 11:42 pm

    I can't sign into google (I'm at work ) to upload it, so it might have to wait a few hours until I finish, sorry.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:24 am

    No worries. If we can get all the specifics sorted out, I can try to set up a mass invasion event, not covenant-related. Maybe billy, with his low level invasion plans, will sign on board too.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Mon Jun 03, 2013 12:28 am

    I PM'd it to you, it might be a little more viewable that way. I'll set up a google docs one tonight for everyone though.
    I'd be keen for a low level fight club or something, maybe in the Blighttown pit (since we don't have to kill Quelaag, there should be more than enough hosts), also not tons of traffic.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:57 am

    Wow no Shiva gear, AND no Antiquated set. Looks like I need to redo quite a lot of my original build. I don't think there's a piece of chest armor as light as the antiquated dress, and that's a bummer.

    I wonder though why BDCR but not the Crest? Both are rather expensive items from a vendor for a new players. Another oddity is why lower blight town but not upper? If it's simply a matter of limiting access to PW I'd understand as I feel PW would be over centralizing with these rules (that is to say it would be overwhelmingly popular)

    And the allowed area's do give access to green titanite and the Magic and Divine upgrade paths. I also noticed both the MLBH and Crystal Ring Shield were listed as allowed, but there is no way we could get to the giant blacksmith to ascend anything into them.

    Oh and while I don't think this is a good argument in favor of allowing Shiva items, it is possible to get into the forest without killing the hydra.

    Also I support these fights taking place in the Parish, so I can go to NG+7 and Undead Rapport the Berenike knight and give him the trident buff. Just sayin
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:25 am

    I just went through and listed all the items that you'd be allowed to get following the rules, it was a pretty rush job in my lunch break, and I'll concede that the Moonlight Horn and Shield shouldn't be in there, that was an oversight on my part.

    However, upper Blighttown I believe is off limits to new players as going backwards up there is pretty tricky, and I don't see new players doing that if they choose the Master Key.
    Also having the cut off is good for preventing Power Within as I think it would be a little OP, but as to why Reim decided that I can't 100% say.

    Lower Blighttown is allowed, the Leeches are packed full of Large titanite and Green titanite so Raw, Divine, and Magic isn't an issue farming wise.

    Good point with BDCR, LDCR and the Crest of Artorias, again I just listed everything from that vendor so this is an oversight on my part, I'll remove them later on when I upload it to google docs.

    I would be in favour of not having the fights in the Parish or the Burg due to the high traffic those areas see (also on PC the Parish is full of hackers).


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by SadPanda on Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:39 am

    You could always just make builds until you get a titanite catch pole. Or a channeler's trident if you're lucky.
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by JohnnyHarpoon on Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:29 am

    Overall, I think the idea of building a "fair" low level PvP build is kind of flawed, because it's inherently placing toons specifically designed for PvP up against toons that, for the most part, aren't more than 1/12 of the way finished. In the Burg or Parish, say, I almost feel that merely being prepared for PvP would give you the edge half the time (unless you bump into a griefer, obviously).

    I'm not saying that it's impossible to build a toon under SL 10 that isn't OP, because that's definitely possible. I just feel like most people that early on aren't looking for PvP no matter who the enemy, griefer or no, and that no matter what, your character is a planned invasion character, and theirs is more than likely a barely touched jumping-off point looking to level up above all else.

    Still, I think the idea is to just limit yourself as much as possible. I personally like to do this by thinking about the character. For example, if I started off as a fat-rolling Knight, I probably wouldn't change much - maybe upgrade the sword a little, snag a crossbow, swap out my shield, switch my helm for an Elite Knight's Helm for the look...but, I'm not going to go throwing on lighter armor just to roll faster, or up my Dex and start using a Bandit's Knife. By that same token, if you start as a Thief, don't go piling on armor or throwing around fireballs, either.

    The more rules and restrictions you have on yourself, the more fair a fight against a weak, unsuspecting opponent will be. By focusing on who your character is and their hypothetical limitations, you will end up playing in new, sometimes inconvenient, but always fun ways in which you probably would have never imagined, and that can actually feel pretty rewarding to master.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:31 am

    I don't think the vendor rings should be banned, as it's realistic for a new player who made a spell caster to see the BDCR as "An item I'll use forever" Similar to other farming for a rare drop like the BSS.

    I'm not sure how combustion from an unascended flame stacks up, but with no crown I don't think there's too much risk of the event turning into Combustionfest 2013. (Personally I wish Dusk's armor was available, but more because it's some of the lightest pieces in the game and we don't get a lot of end to work with) Also without access to the OiC and crown, I worry magic based builds will simply be handicapped compared to a build using the catch pole or large club.

    I think it might be possible to allow Dusk without magic builds getting out of hand, I mean with the OiC which would be the highest possible Adjust Magic Weapon only adds 144 damage. Making it essentially weak enough as to be pointless with Resin available. But I haven't seen the damage Combustion does with a +15 flame, perhaps we could put a stricter limit on the flame, say +10 if that would allow access to dusk items and spells (hidden weapon is under rated)

    Perhaps I'm too hung up on the Antiquated Dress. I'm just thinking out loud And I've always loved low level stuff so I'm probably more excited about this SL10 stuff than most things. But my experience with low level stuff makes me worry about certain things like pyromancy or rather large weapons being held 2h (1 parry/bs from the black knight sword will kill pretty much any sl10 no problem)

    The parish comment was more a joke than anything, as I'm pretty sure a NG++ Berenike knight would make short work of an invader if made friendly via undead rapport. Which I then realised isn't allowed as it's sold by quellena who would appear with a +15 flame but she's not allowed to prevent this from becoming all about Pyromancy.
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Myztyrio on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:43 am



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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Jansports on Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:56 am


    Did you mean to use Hallow Warriors Waistcloth? You can wear soldiers and still fast roll
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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by wretchedsausage on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:05 am

    is gold pine resin allowed, since it can be found in the Burg? Also, I really don't think that the BDCR should be allowed, Pyromancy is already going to heavily feature, we don't need it to be even more powerful.

    Should a new thread be made to propose this event, so that we can try and see if there is much interest?


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:33 am

    Lets work it out here first before cross posting it.

    I've updated the spreadsheet as per the flaws that were pointed out.

    I've taken out BDCR and LDCR for two reasons. 1. Because the cost, if you can't open the Crest Door to farm Forest Protectors for souls you're not buying the rings, and 2. Because this shouldn't be all about Pyromancy, which it could very well turn into with BDCR (and Dusks Crown if that's allowed later on).

    I think not having Gold Pine Resin is the way to go, sure you get 3 in the Burg but that's it, you need to open the Crest Door to farm more so it's an unsustainable item and thus shouldn't be allowed.

    Further to this, Gold Pine adds 150dmg, MW with OiC adds 144dmg. If one is allowed the other must be allowed. As it is we have Charcoal Pine which adds 80dmg and is purchasable, and MW (with the Stock Catalyst) which adds 88dmg.

    To me that's balanced.


    Anyhow, enough of me rambling, here's the spreadsheet: Clicky here.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by wretchedsausage on Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:56 am

    OK, that's fair enough. Also, thanks a heap for creating the spreadsheet, it is a great help! +1 to you mate.


    I'm sorry if this sounds like a stupid question, but how would we be invading? do we have to go all the way to Kaathe, or is there something I'm missing?


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by StiffNipples on Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:45 am

    No prob.

    I've updated it with allowable consumables now.

    Please let me know if anything's wrong and I'll change it.


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:22 am

    I love this idea but I only have one issue... If its a mass invasion event wont we need to beat the 4 kings for the red orb, otherwise we only have access to 3/4 redstone invasion thingies?


    EDIT: sorry wretched; just read your post


    This is my current build: http://mmdks.com/2j80 I realise I would need to swap out the armour, mask and claws for something less OP


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    Re: Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?

    Post by WaffleGuy on Mon Jun 03, 2013 10:30 am

    If it's for PVP:
    http://mmdks.com/2l3c
    IDK, I'm not good at making efficient builds. I like to make absurd ones, or with one or two big disadvantages. Shrug


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