Tl;dr - We should allow all Dusk sorceries, armor and OiC. We should also allow Lightning Spear. Without those there is no reason to choose either over pyromancy.
+28
Ghadis_God
Avenger649
Sentiel
The_Red_Drifter
TheMeInTeam
WaffleGuy
Halicarnassis
Myztyrio
JohnnyHarpoon
Uparkaam
billy_bayonet
roanispe
ResIsBestStat
wretchedsausage
Wilkinson3424
sparkly-twinkly-lizard
Jansports
Tolvo
SadPanda
StiffNipples
Soris Ice Goldwing
twigsterxd
Dusk Soul
KrazykevS10
Eko
RANT
steveswede
reim0027
32 posters
Who can create the most powerful fair low level build?
Eko- Addicted
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I'm probably going to wait on creating a build until all the rules and item allocations get ironed out. I personally see no issue with adding the Dusk set as the Hydra has become a boss I kill right after I reach Firelink Shrine. Typically getting to the Hydra would be the hardest part of the fight as his heads almost never hit you once you're close enough. I think the OiC, while arguably attainable for common players at low levels, would allow sorcery to actually be a viable option. As it stands there is almost no incentive for me to make a SL10 build using Faith or Sorcery over Pyromancy. The only usable Faith spells available will be Force and the Lightning Spear (maybe not even the Lightning Spear given the direction this is going). I understand there are heal spells, but I don't see people finding the time to use Heal when someone is on them constantly. Pyromancy is the only logical choice between the three at this point. Now I'm not advocating for Emit Force, WotG, GMW or any spells like that. I just think we should allow the Dusk set, OiC, Dusk's Spells and the Lightning Spear spell. It would make Faith a little more viable and same with Intelligence builds. As it stands I see the majority of people using some kind of pyromancy and while I do enjoy it from time to time, I think for the events sake it would be best to allow those reasonable options for Faith and Intelligence as well.
Tl;dr - We should allow all Dusk sorceries, armor and OiC. We should also allow Lightning Spear. Without those there is no reason to choose either over pyromancy.
Tl;dr - We should allow all Dusk sorceries, armor and OiC. We should also allow Lightning Spear. Without those there is no reason to choose either over pyromancy.
Jansports- Hollowed
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I'm also not sure about the weapon upgrades, as I've said previously +5 Raw puts the AR of the usable weapon in the range of the Jagged Ghost Blade (most a little less, some quite a bit more....large club being the main offender) Since the Jagged Ghost Blade is an allowed weapon, with plenty of perks (light weight, bleed, curved sword, great in the offhand) It seems like It's a good point to examine things from. Like the now disallowed BKS, it had double the AR of the JGB. But a +5 Raw Uchi has very similar AR (slightly lower)and of course the bleed.
Also doing some damage tests with the pyro flame. Unless you somehow have less defenses than the hallows right by firelink a +10 flame with Crown of Dusk isn't OP damage. It's basically right in the range of 200-250 which I think is a fair value as it will take 3ish hits to kill someone. And I think 3 hits is a good number for lethality. I'm going to (when I can) be testing Crown+ring at +10 then I'm moving up to +15 to test, no boosts, one boost, the other, both ect. Though I have a feeling since I think +10 w/ crown is in the sweet spot, +15 with boosting gear will be a bit too much.
@ Eko. That is exactly my issue with Dusk, as it stands Sorcery is highly limited with MW beating out the resin by 15-30 points (wwwooowwww) While Chameleon, hidden weapon, and OiC actually spending point on Int seems legit. And we can always stop Pyro from getting too strong by lowering the flame level, as I just tested I believe +10 /w crown is acceptable damage.
Also doing some damage tests with the pyro flame. Unless you somehow have less defenses than the hallows right by firelink a +10 flame with Crown of Dusk isn't OP damage. It's basically right in the range of 200-250 which I think is a fair value as it will take 3ish hits to kill someone. And I think 3 hits is a good number for lethality. I'm going to (when I can) be testing Crown+ring at +10 then I'm moving up to +15 to test, no boosts, one boost, the other, both ect. Though I have a feeling since I think +10 w/ crown is in the sweet spot, +15 with boosting gear will be a bit too much.
@ Eko. That is exactly my issue with Dusk, as it stands Sorcery is highly limited with MW beating out the resin by 15-30 points (wwwooowwww) While Chameleon, hidden weapon, and OiC actually spending point on Int seems legit. And we can always stop Pyro from getting too strong by lowering the flame level, as I just tested I believe +10 /w crown is acceptable damage.
Eko- Addicted
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I agree and almost no one, unless I glossed over it, has talked about Faith yet as a viable option. It would be almost completely useless without LS. I easily see pyromancy being chosen over the other options and I would prefer this not turn into a Combustion spam event. It would be most fun with a variety of options.
Halicarnassis- Caffeinated
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Well I have a faith build I would like to include but it does mean crossing the fog gate on the bridge to get down to the giant skeleton.. which is not all the way down... Here is my faith build.
https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=213412381727274091
Edit: Yes it means killing Solaire for his Armoui and doing one boss in co-op for lightning spear
The shield will be +5 magic and the Morning Star only +5 Divine if we are allowed access to those areas.
I would substitute Lightning Spear for Gravelord Sword Dance if thats not allowed..
https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=213412381727274091
Edit: Yes it means killing Solaire for his Armoui and doing one boss in co-op for lightning spear
The shield will be +5 magic and the Morning Star only +5 Divine if we are allowed access to those areas.
I would substitute Lightning Spear for Gravelord Sword Dance if thats not allowed..
wretchedsausage- Addicted
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I can understand what you both are saying, but I feel like the OiC will only be used to cast MW. there aren't very many Sorceries which I see as viable at low SLs, so I don't think that this catalyst would add anything good. Also, from what I can tell, Miracles are pretty useless for PVP, unless you have WoG or TWoP. Also, Lightning Spear is something which most New players would not have access to, so I think that it should be excluded.
Halicarnassis- Caffeinated
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Flatulent bottoms! They get access to white soap stone on the drake bridge... they can get summoned surely... The alter is also right there so the covenant is easily accessible... And one would need to invest in a Faith score of 20 just to get it leaving all your other stats at starting point.. surely the sacrifice is worth the investment? The question is; will a LS one-shot a newby?. If the answer is yes then I concede. Would that rule out Gravelord Sword Dance too?
StiffNipples- Obsessed
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Jansports wrote:
@ Eko. That is exactly my issue with Dusk, as it stands Sorcery is highly limited with MW beating out the resin by 15-30 points (wwwooowwww) While Chameleon, hidden weapon, and OiC actually spending point on Int seems legit. And we can always stop Pyro from getting too strong by lowering the flame level, as I just tested I believe +10 /w crown is acceptable damage.
Magic Weapon with the Oolacile Catalyst adds 144dmg, this is 64 higher than the 80dmg of Charcoal Pine Resin.
Using Magic Weapon with the Sorcerers Catalyst can achieve a maximum of 122dmg without exceeding the SL10 limit. To me that is balanced better than using the OiC.
Furthermore, aside from the small wooden shields almost all other shields have much higher Fire defence than magic defence, making magic a more viable option for chip damage, additionally, magic can be increased with the Lingering DCR (should it be allowed) whereas Charcoal Pine Resin cannot.
I think leaving Gold Pine Resin and the OiC out is the right way to go personally.
Also thank you for testing the Pyro flame, please keep us informed.
As to Lightning Spear, if you hit someone with it in PvP then they're not paying much attention or there is considerable lag.
I think it should be allowed (not Great Lightning Spear though), otherwise Faith users have Force and Heal and that's it. Not even Replenishment (which is awesome at low levels of health).
reim0027- Moderator
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As far as joining the Darkwraith covenant, go for it. Beathing the 4 kings at SL 10 will be a challenge, but rewarding. But, I have a SL 6 that has access to Kaathe. I can get you 198 cracked eye orbs.
As far as the Dusk items, I'm still against it. In my low level invading, I rarely saw them, if ever. That right there is enough reason not to have them. Not every style of build will be useful at this low SL. But, part of the fun would be trying. The mentality is way different than higher SL builds. You will have a weak build, but so will the hosts.
And, to keep things simple, upgrades can only be with shards, no large shards can be used.
As far as the Dusk items, I'm still against it. In my low level invading, I rarely saw them, if ever. That right there is enough reason not to have them. Not every style of build will be useful at this low SL. But, part of the fun would be trying. The mentality is way different than higher SL builds. You will have a weak build, but so will the hosts.
And, to keep things simple, upgrades can only be with shards, no large shards can be used.
Halicarnassis- Caffeinated
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Thanks for the update Reim (+1 for you lol!) Question.. who is Kellog??
So Catacombs is OOB as is Depths?
So Catacombs is OOB as is Depths?
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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Question:
For simplicity's sake, can we use items that would be starting items on at least 1 build? For example, let's say I pick Bandit, but want to use a standard helm +3. This is hard to find outside of the depths, but would it be acceptable?
If not, or maybe even if we can, I think this is going to wind up being my build:
http://mmdks.com/2ll0
This setup lets you get 3 consecutive swings at full stamina (barely). It midrolls with decent poise (I can get over 75 and still midroll, but farming might be a pain so I probably won't do it) and has the xbow to finish runners or harass. I'll pack some dung pies and poison throwing knives too.
I can get 77 poise by adding knight armor instead of chain and dropping either the xbow or switching in heater shield...but that would require hollow soldier waistcloth. We'll see if I feel like farming for it, otherwise it would be like this:
http://mmdks.com/2ll3
4 kings will be a serious pain w/o pyro with this kind of setup though. Maybe I'll make a raw greatsword or some such and/or summon help and head in there with giants or more likely stone armor.
For simplicity's sake, can we use items that would be starting items on at least 1 build? For example, let's say I pick Bandit, but want to use a standard helm +3. This is hard to find outside of the depths, but would it be acceptable?
If not, or maybe even if we can, I think this is going to wind up being my build:
http://mmdks.com/2ll0
This setup lets you get 3 consecutive swings at full stamina (barely). It midrolls with decent poise (I can get over 75 and still midroll, but farming might be a pain so I probably won't do it) and has the xbow to finish runners or harass. I'll pack some dung pies and poison throwing knives too.
I can get 77 poise by adding knight armor instead of chain and dropping either the xbow or switching in heater shield...but that would require hollow soldier waistcloth. We'll see if I feel like farming for it, otherwise it would be like this:
http://mmdks.com/2ll3
4 kings will be a serious pain w/o pyro with this kind of setup though. Maybe I'll make a raw greatsword or some such and/or summon help and head in there with giants or more likely stone armor.
Halicarnassis- Caffeinated
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^I see your Bandit and raise you one Pyromancer
http://mmdks.com/2ll9
http://mmdks.com/2ll9
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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They're both viable builds but they're good at different things. You have less poise (couldn't take UGS 2h hit or even something like reinforced club 2h hits) and can only swing the zwei twice (my build allows a 3rd swing, barely, due to FAP + the endurance).I see your Bandit and raise you one Pyromancer
On the flip side, you can fast roll and have pyros. Iron flesh is interesting, but as an invader it's too vulnerable to ganking, ranged attacks, or people just staying away until it wears off. If I see iron flesh I'm just throwing poison knives and back stabbing if I see moss ^_^.
Halicarnassis- Caffeinated
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^all good points admittedly and I agree with all of them.
I threw in Iron Flesh as I dont have much poise so if I came up against another bigger weapon and I did have to tank it I would use the spell as a last resort and go in swinging! Same for ganking; aim for a small walkway or room, draw them in and its "batter up"
Question is: how freaked out will a newbie be seeing a naked, sack covered, Iron Flesh Zwei-wielding invader slowly walking towards them.. (I just realized that if the Depths is off bounds I wont have a sack )
I threw in Iron Flesh as I dont have much poise so if I came up against another bigger weapon and I did have to tank it I would use the spell as a last resort and go in swinging! Same for ganking; aim for a small walkway or room, draw them in and its "batter up"
Question is: how freaked out will a newbie be seeing a naked, sack covered, Iron Flesh Zwei-wielding invader slowly walking towards them.. (I just realized that if the Depths is off bounds I wont have a sack )
SadPanda- Caffeinated
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These aren't exactly good builds, but they're pretty damn funny to use.
The Petty Thief:
http://mmdks.com/2llp
The Dirty Luchador:
http://mmdks.com/2llo
The Gladiator:
http://mmdks.com/2llr
The Rotton Warrior (I know I misspelled it, and the bandit knife is supposed to be a ghost blade):
http://mmdks.com/2llu
All of these have given me some amazing laughs.
The Petty Thief:
http://mmdks.com/2llp
The Dirty Luchador:
http://mmdks.com/2llo
The Gladiator:
http://mmdks.com/2llr
The Rotton Warrior (I know I misspelled it, and the bandit knife is supposed to be a ghost blade):
http://mmdks.com/2llu
All of these have given me some amazing laughs.
TheMeInTeam- Insomniac
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Some of those have equipment that isn't allowed.
However, I think things like the sack should be allowed, or for example the helmet boosting magic damage by 10% ONLY if you don't use magic at all. IMO joke equipment should be allowed, not that I'm going to bother.
However, I think things like the sack should be allowed, or for example the helmet boosting magic damage by 10% ONLY if you don't use magic at all. IMO joke equipment should be allowed, not that I'm going to bother.
Halicarnassis- Caffeinated
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Panda your rotten warrior is hell-of-a OP. Walking stink bomb!
Love it!
Love it!
Sentiel- Compulsory Poster
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Not the strongest, but I would go with this. It seems fair to me.
SadPanda- Caffeinated
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TheMeInTeam wrote:Some of those have equipment that isn't allowed.
However, I think things like the sack should be allowed, or for example the helmet boosting magic damage by 10% ONLY if you don't use magic at all. IMO joke equipment should be allowed, not that I'm going to bother.
I know, I made these before I saw this thread. I just thought if we were on the topic of low level invading
Halicarnassis- Caffeinated
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Sentiel wrote:Not the strongest, but I would go with this. It seems fair to me.
I'm sure you didnt mean to use lightning +5 as it isnt available under the rules
Sentiel- Compulsory Poster
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Sorry to dissapoint you, but I do mean to use Lightning Rapier.Halicarnassis wrote:Sentiel wrote:Not the strongest, but I would go with this. It seems fair to me.
I'm sure you didnt mean to use lightning +5 as it isnt available under the rules
It's for cases when I would invade a twink, or a higher level player. I can't put a dent into a SL 100 guy with +5 Longsword.
Of course, I would never use it on legit players of similar level as me.
Feel free to ignore it, or imagine it's also +5.
Halicarnassis- Caffeinated
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Sent you never disappoint me mate. Method to your clarity; I completely forgot about that one little twink issue. Thanks for reminding me
Back to the drawing board I think.
Back to the drawing board I think.
Sentiel- Compulsory Poster
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Halicarnassis wrote:Sent you never disappoint me mate. Method to your clarity; I completely forgot about that one little twink issue. Thanks for reminding me
Back to the drawing board I think.
SadPanda- Caffeinated
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Sentiel wrote:Halicarnassis wrote:Sent you never disappoint me mate. Method to your clarity; I completely forgot about that one little twink issue. Thanks for reminding me
Back to the drawing board I think.
"9GAG". Oh God, what is this blasphemy...
Sentiel- Compulsory Poster
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I was lazy to cut it.
SadPanda- Caffeinated
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Sentiel wrote:I was lazy to cut it.
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