Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

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    ICEFANG
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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by ICEFANG on Tue May 28, 2013 12:32 pm

    Prepare to die. If you fail to win, you must learn to win. You will never get better if you never die.

    Besides, usually they can 1 shot you, at lower levels, but at a higher level, then its just a 2v1, and that is so fun, and changes the dynamic a lot.


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Elifia on Tue May 28, 2013 12:59 pm

    twigsterxd wrote:
    To ICEFANG;
    Aren't gankers people who invade or wait for invaders with OP toons seeking to destroy a players game? If so, I would rather be invaded by a person who wants a real fight. Not one that thinks they're awesome cause they can 1 shot me. I hate invaders but it's part of the game. Kill or be killed. But, keep it fair.
    To Ostrava, warding was a spell that gave you a body shield for defense.

    I know you didn't ask me, but this is generally what we mean with terms like 'ganker' and such:

    • Gankers: People who summon phantoms, clear the area from mobs, then wait for invaders for an unfair 2vs1 or 3vs1 fight. Sometimes also refers to Forest Hunters who invade but do not engage until help arrives.
    • Griefers: Low-SL invaders in early areas of the game with end-game equipment.
    • Spawn-Campers: People who wait right next to the spawning points of invaders and try to kill them the moment they appear. TWoP, Fire Tempest and Gravelord Greatsword Dance are popular for this.
    • Spawn-Gankers: Gankers who spawn-camp.
    • Trolls: People using unusual tactics to annoy others. Example: drop an item near a cliff, hide, and shoot people with a greatbow when they try to pick up the item.


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by WaffleGuy on Tue May 28, 2013 1:14 pm

    No multiplayer in general. If you couldn't summon anyone or couldn't get invaded, I would have quit a few days after starting. It's not that I need them most of the time (now), but I like playing this game with others.

    Heck, I still summon one or two people for the Taurus demon just because I enjoy it. And I like low level PVP a lot more, so invasions are always exciting :razz:

    Also, removing the kick-animation would have been bad for me. Saved my tushy multiple times, in PVE and PVP biggrin


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue May 28, 2013 1:19 pm

    So imo gankers ruin game play. Invading to have a fair fight doesn't bother me. I hate being invaded but I shouldn't be forced to play offline to keep them away. I got invaded by a guy with a MM glitched toon. He beat me, but it took him 10 mins cause I was set up as well. That to me was a fair fight. I don't mind those. I just don't like the guys that Elifia posted. To me, they ruin games cause how do you properly learn to PvP if you get jumped and/or killed right away.
    BTW Elifia thanks for clarifying the differences. It's a free forum, post when ya want too happy
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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Elifia on Tue May 28, 2013 1:31 pm

    twigsterxd wrote:So imo gankers ruin game play. Invading to have a fair fight doesn't bother me. I hate being invaded but I shouldn't be forced to play offline to keep them away. I got invaded by a guy with a MM glitched toon. He beat me, but it took him 10 mins cause I was set up as well. That to me was a fair fight. I don't mind those. I just don't like the guys that Elifia posted. To me, they ruin games cause how do you properly learn to PvP if you get jumped and/or killed right away.
    BTW Elifia thanks for clarifying the differences. It's a free forum, post when ya want too happy

    How do you know he used MM? They're generally indistinguishable from regular players who simply cleared the game (possibly multiple times).

    I don't think gankers ruin gameplay, as long as they stick to the forest. Because people expect them there, and people even go there for the challenge of fighting multiple people at once. Once they start infesting regular PvP areas though...
    Griefers are the worst in my opinion. Just a bunch of **** who invade new players who have no chance of beating them.


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue May 28, 2013 1:47 pm

    I knew because after our battle we chatted thru messages and he told me he did. Asked if I needed anything cause he had MM, explained wut MM is and I told him I use MM on my offline acct. and the toon he fought was already completed. If gankers stayed in the forest that doesn't bother me. I play that area offline lol


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Animaaal on Tue May 28, 2013 6:27 pm

    Elifia wrote:...How do you know he used MM?...

    I don't think its mandatory for a MM to be blue, but if they are, they either LOVE the smurfs, or are a MM.

    *sidenote

    I've been playing past couple nights farming the Bell Gargs, Gaping, and whatnot (sl 11). We did get invaded by a guy...I can't say his name...but he apparently was fascinated with the infamous smurfs breeding practices.

    He dropped all kinds of stuff for the host and left, it was actually pretty cool. The host seemed pretty new, so I hope he drop him anything too good. But it was still better than him trolling. Shrug
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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Avenger649 on Tue May 28, 2013 7:02 pm

    1. If invaders could follow you into boss rooms.
    2. If you could choose not to be invaded.
    3. If the game never notified you of an invader spawning.
    4. If gravelords could summon phantoms.


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Djem on Tue May 28, 2013 7:21 pm

    Dark Souls is awesome the way it is. I love even the griefers. I remember being backstabbed to death by a darkwraith with Mask of the Child in the Undead Burg on my first playthrough. It was my first PvP. I had no idea even backstab existed prior to that. I couldn't hurt him in the slightest, but it was so much fun.
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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Dibsville on Tue May 28, 2013 7:35 pm

    Shakie666 wrote:No poise.

    Also: why would extra damage for occult weapons be bad? Then they would actually have a use (it doesn't need to be a lot: maybe 10% or something).
    If you're directing this at my original post, then I allow me to explain.

    No need to read on if you weren't, but I'll explain anyway:

    Occult Weapons are already very powerful. With a good Faith stat, they can easily overwhelm your opponent at low levels. Even at higher levels, if you're running a build that doesn't have a buff, most of the time Occult is the better choice than normal due to double scaling even with the split damage.

    Now let's look at a weapon that's in every way worse as an Occult weapon than it would be as a Normal weapon: the almighty Murakumo (I love using this example)

    At 28/40/50, the Murakumo +15 has an almighty 552 AR. Compare that to an Occult Murakumo with the same stats, which has 650 AR. Due to split damage, the Murakumo +15 always wins out.
    By a lot.

    But say we increase Occult's damage by a measly 10% just because it's hitting a non-undead enemy. That means instead of doing its regular 650 split damage, the Occult Murakumo would instead do 715 split damage. Even though the basic +15 Murakumo has a HUGE AR compared to that, 715 split is bound to do more damage than the normal pure damage.

    Just remember, Murakumo is a weapon where +15 is ALWAYS better than Occult with those stats, buffed or not. So when you take that same example and put it into a weapon where the Occult version is ALREADY JUST AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER than the regular +15, you can begin to see how increased damage would be insanely overpowered.






    By the way; Occult is very usable in normal terms.


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Green__Eagle on Tue May 28, 2013 9:31 pm

    I wish the game didn't give any notification of an invasion. You would need to be eternally cautious.

    It might ruin the game if a gravelord had the ability to invade a player and spawn red demons to help him. :-) A part of me thinks that would be AWESOME. I've never been a practicing gravelord.

    Speaking of gravelords.... someone infected Sen's Fortress. What an evil person!


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by twigsterxd on Tue May 28, 2013 10:02 pm

    Avenger649 wrote:1. If invaders could follow you into boss rooms.
    2. If you could choose not to be invaded.
    3. If the game never notified you of an invader spawning.
    4. If gravelords could summon phantoms.
    1. It happened to me once in Demon Souls ng+ against phalanx
    2. You can. Play offline.
    3. Happens on ps3 sometimes.
    4. I got nothin' lol
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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Jansports on Tue May 28, 2013 10:08 pm

    Dibsville wrote:
    Shakie666 wrote:No poise.

    Also: why would extra damage for occult weapons be bad? Then they would actually have a use (it doesn't need to be a lot: maybe 10% or something).
    If you're directing this at my original post, then I allow me to explain.

    No need to read on if you weren't, but I'll explain anyway:

    Occult Weapons are already very powerful. With a good Faith stat, they can easily overwhelm your opponent at low levels. Even at higher levels, if you're running a build that doesn't have a buff, most of the time Occult is the better choice than normal due to double scaling even with the split damage.

    Now let's look at a weapon that's in every way worse as an Occult weapon than it would be as a Normal weapon: the almighty Murakumo (I love using this example)

    At 28/40/50, the Murakumo +15 has an almighty 552 AR. Compare that to an Occult Murakumo with the same stats, which has 650 AR. Due to split damage, the Murakumo +15 always wins out.
    By a lot.

    But say we increase Occult's damage by a measly 10% just because it's hitting a non-undead enemy. That means instead of doing its regular 650 split damage, the Occult Murakumo would instead do 715 split damage. Even though the basic +15 Murakumo has a HUGE AR compared to that, 715 split is bound to do more damage than the normal pure damage.

    Just remember, Murakumo is a weapon where +15 is ALWAYS better than Occult with those stats, buffed or not. So when you take that same example and put it into a weapon where the Occult version is ALREADY JUST AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER than the regular +15, you can begin to see how increased damage would be insanely overpowered.






    By the way; Occult is very usable in normal terms.

    28/40/50 is so many stats it's to the point where I honestly expect absurdity. At standard PvP levels 55, 100, 120 It's already difficult to get 40/50 As you will see most builds that opt to buff to stick to 30faith. As to get 40 dex 50 faith somethings gotta give. either Vit or End and losing to much of either one isn't appealing at all in pvp. Considering one of the Mura's biggest strengths is it's stunlock you can't skimp on stamina, and it's heavy. To keep fast roll you'll need to be mostly naked, or wearing very light armor.

    Whats more is when specifically comparing the power of an occult mura to a normal mura, at 40 dex 50 faith. You did not in your calculations take into account the potential to buff the normal mura. Which from a darkmoon talisman at 50 faith would be 474 addition magic damage. so 715 split AR looks good compared to 552 pure, but how does it stack up to 1026 split AR?

    The Occult/Divine/Enchanted/Magic upgrade paths are not just as good as normal, they are barely a step up from Lightning or Chaos and only after you've invested in a fair amount of stats. In fact An Occult Mura at 40 dex 30 Faith has the same AR (588) as a 10 manatee Chaos. Once you start pushing past that point Occult becomes better than Chaos. Which is Ironic since 40/30 is a stopping point for a good number of build.

    So if Occult weapons are already just as good as normal weapons. Save yourself a ton of soul levels and use Chaos everything
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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Dibsville on Tue May 28, 2013 10:15 pm

    Jansports wrote:
    Dibsville wrote:
    Shakie666 wrote:No poise.

    Also: why would extra damage for occult weapons be bad? Then they would actually have a use (it doesn't need to be a lot: maybe 10% or something).
    If you're directing this at my original post, then I allow me to explain.

    No need to read on if you weren't, but I'll explain anyway:

    Occult Weapons are already very powerful. With a good Faith stat, they can easily overwhelm your opponent at low levels. Even at higher levels, if you're running a build that doesn't have a buff, most of the time Occult is the better choice than normal due to double scaling even with the split damage.

    Now let's look at a weapon that's in every way worse as an Occult weapon than it would be as a Normal weapon: the almighty Murakumo (I love using this example)

    At 28/40/50, the Murakumo +15 has an almighty 552 AR. Compare that to an Occult Murakumo with the same stats, which has 650 AR. Due to split damage, the Murakumo +15 always wins out.
    By a lot.

    But say we increase Occult's damage by a measly 10% just because it's hitting a non-undead enemy. That means instead of doing its regular 650 split damage, the Occult Murakumo would instead do 715 split damage. Even though the basic +15 Murakumo has a HUGE AR compared to that, 715 split is bound to do more damage than the normal pure damage.

    Just remember, Murakumo is a weapon where +15 is ALWAYS better than Occult with those stats, buffed or not. So when you take that same example and put it into a weapon where the Occult version is ALREADY JUST AS GOOD, IF NOT BETTER than the regular +15, you can begin to see how increased damage would be insanely overpowered.






    By the way; Occult is very usable in normal terms.

    28/40/50 is so many stats it's to the point where I honestly expect absurdity. At standard PvP levels 55, 100, 120 It's already difficult to get 40/50 As you will see most builds that opt to buff to stick to 30faith. As to get 40 dex 50 faith somethings gotta give. either Vit or End and losing to much of either one isn't appealing at all in pvp. Considering one of the Mura's biggest strengths is it's stunlock you can't skimp on stamina, and it's heavy. To keep fast roll you'll need to be mostly naked, or wearing very light armor.

    Whats more is when specifically comparing the power of an occult mura to a normal mura, at 40 dex 50 faith. You did not in your calculations take into account the potential to buff the normal mura. Which from a darkmoon talisman at 50 faith would be 474 addition magic damage. so 715 split AR looks good compared to 552 pure, but how does it stack up to 1026 split AR?

    The Occult/Divine/Enchanted/Magic upgrade paths are not just as good as normal, they are barely a step up from Lightning or Chaos and only after you've invested in a fair amount of stats. In fact An Occult Mura at 40 dex 30 Faith has the same AR (588) as a 10 manatee Chaos. Once you start pushing past that point Occult becomes better than Chaos. Which is Ironic since 40/30 is a stopping point for a good number of build.

    So if Occult weapons are already just as good as normal weapons. Save yourself a ton of soul levels and use Chaos everything

    I was explaining that Occult in no way needed the boost. I know the stats were a bad example, but the Murakumo is always a good elemental example. I also said this conveying that the pure Mura was not going to be buffed.










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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Jansports on Tue May 28, 2013 10:34 pm

    But Divine/Occult/Enchanted/Magic DOES need a boost. If occult evens out with Chaos at 40/30 anything before 40/30 Chaos is strictly better. And when was the last time anyone anywhere claimed that a Chaos Uchi is just as good as a +15 Uchi at 40 dex?

    It's not. The split AR upgrades are just bad compared to normal as soon as you have that scaling stat leveled up. Once you have 40 dex (or strength) the Elemental paths become inferior. Occult only catches up to Chaos after you have 40 dex and 30 faith, But as we have established at 40 dex +15 out performs Chaos by a margin.

    Your assertion that Occult versions of weapons are just as good as their normal counter parts is wrong. Before your scaling stats are leveled Chaos wins, when scaling stats are leveled normal wins. there isn't a point where Occult is the best choice for any weapon that isn't a bow(sometimes occult bows are the best choice)
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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by ICEFANG on Tue May 28, 2013 11:11 pm

    Although I agree completely that Chaos and Lightning are superior, and per point, still better than a buffed +15 weapon (say 40-40-30, to get an AR of, who knows, 500->700?, a Chaos weapon will do 600 split at 16-16, just an example), I consider magic damage to be the best type of damage. Although I do know that MB, GMB, and Crest Shield all laugh at magic, magic damage is the best to get through shields, and even though they are metal, most people use the amazing physical, great fire, good lightning medium shields, who usually lack serious magic protection.

    I agree, but at say 16-16-50 I don't think a magic damage weapon should have much more or less (about the same) as a Chaos or Lightning weapon.


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Bontee on Wed May 29, 2013 12:20 am

    If there was no invulnerability frames during a roll...

    If there was no NG+ or beyond...

    If there was an easy mode. :O

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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Ostrava34 on Wed May 29, 2013 3:14 am

    Serious_Much wrote:
    Ostrava34 wrote:If FROM brought back the warding spell (an auto-revive miracle) from Demon's Souls. It goes without saying that I wouldn't have died as many times as I have if I had that spell, but I don't miss it either way since my skills would probably get sloppier had that been possible.

    I think you mean second chance


    LOL neither of us are right. I played it a few hours ago to confirm this, but it says One time revival instead of second chance. But thanks for bringing it up anyway.


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by twigsterxd on Wed May 29, 2013 9:17 am

    [quote="Green__Eagle"]I wish the game didn't give any notification of an invasion./quote]

    That would make the game a little too hard. Imagine you're in chat trying to set up co op with friend, or going through your inv. to switch weapons. You'd have to either quit game each time you had to reply to a message or sit at a bonfire every time you needed to do something. Notifications save alot of headaches. Also, some people like to rush, they don't like being cautious.


    Last edited by twigsterxd on Wed May 29, 2013 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : stupid ps3)
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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by TheMeInTeam on Wed May 29, 2013 10:49 am

    - Difficulty slider where the game could be made easy to beginners.

    - Making DEX any stronger (It's already unique in boosting casting time)

    - Instant death criticals

    - Stronger magic


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    Re: Name a tiny change that could have destroyed Dark Souls

    Post by Dibsville on Wed May 29, 2013 5:23 pm

    Jansports wrote:Your assertion that Occult versions of weapons are just as good as their normal counter parts is wrong. Before your scaling stats are leveled Chaos wins, when scaling stats are leveled normal wins. there isn't a point where Occult is the best choice for any weapon that isn't a bow(sometimes occult bows are the best choice)

    http://mmdks.com/2iut
    http://mmdks.com/2iuu
    http://mmdks.com/2iuv

    Occult is better than both with scaling.

    http://mmdks.com/2iuz
    http://mmdks.com/2iv0
    http://mmdks.com/2iv1


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