Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 7:45 pm

    So he's a Spike to your Johnny?


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Wed Sep 04, 2013 9:39 pm

    GenericUsername wrote:You know I really just can't play against one of my friends anymore.  I just can't.

    Oh I wanna try out a new deck that I've never tested before?  Lol lemme just use my Boros deck where every creature is a rare.  All of them.  Every one.  And of course they're all low mana cost.

    Or how about my red/black vampire deck, where 11 out of 18 creatures are mythic rares?  And how about I make them hexproof and unblockable with lifelink? 

    Or oh what about my artifact deck where over the course of 2 turns I played 7 power house artifact creatures for free.
    Yeah........thats how mtg works, though rarity has nothing to do with it.

    In my u/w allies, i have 1 set of 4 uncommons and 1 set of 3 rares. The rest are commons.

    By turn 4 I can have 8 creatures out. a 8/9, a 7/7 first strike vigilance, a 5/6, a 6/6 first strike vigilance, a 2/2 that gives me life equal to the number of creatures I control every time I get out a creature, and a 1/3 that mills you X where X is the number of creatures I control every time I get a creature.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Slarg232 on Wed Sep 04, 2013 10:50 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:
    GenericUsername wrote:You know I really just can't play against one of my friends anymore.  I just can't.

    Oh I wanna try out a new deck that I've never tested before?  Lol lemme just use my Boros deck where every creature is a rare.  All of them.  Every one.  And of course they're all low mana cost.

    Or how about my red/black vampire deck, where 11 out of 18 creatures are mythic rares?  And how about I make them hexproof and unblockable with lifelink? 

    Or oh what about my artifact deck where over the course of 2 turns I played 7 power house artifact creatures for free.
    Yeah........thats how mtg works, though rarity has nothing to do with it.

    In my u/w allies, i have 1 set of 4 uncommons and 1 set of 3 rares. The rest are commons.

    By turn 4 I can have 8 creatures out. a 8/9, a 7/7 first strike vigilance, a 5/6, a 6/6 first strike vigilance, a 2/2 that gives me life equal to the number of creatures I control every time I get out a creature, and a 1/3 that mills you X where X is the number of creatures I control every time I get a creature.
    No, that's how competitive mtg works, not necessarily how casual mtg works.


    Maybe it's a communications issue, but this is a two way problem; you think he should be experimenting with you, where as he thinks you're trying to beat him at his best.

    Try talking to him about it. On one hand, is a deck really being tested if it's going up against a deck he's not used to using? On the other, is he richer than you?

    Don't know enough about this situation to make a clear decision over here.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:25 am

    if you're not trying to win, even if its the timmy "i'ma keep trying to win with progenitus untill it works, no matter how unlikely it is" attitude, wtf is the point?

    to test a deck and see wether or not it does what its supposed to. now under ideal circumstances, it will, wvery time, but circumstances are rarely ideal, so the only effective way to test a deck is under fire.

    you can "play to win" without being super serious about the no-holds-barred competitive aspect, to give otherwise nonfunctioal decks a chance to do the cool things you're trying to do, that don't work at all in other formats.

    you could, for examole, play only commons and uncommons, you could only play cards in a deck that represent the faction they are part of (eg a r/w deck with only boros cards, or a green phyrexia deck with only phyrexian cards,) you could play block or set specific decks, you could play with only cards having a converted mana cost under 5, or 4, or 7.

    To play an inherently competitive game though, and then complain that other people actually compete is.........we'll go with counter intuitive. If you're dissastisfied with how the matches go, get better, or propose a format that will allow you to play in a way you both enjoy.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:33 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:if you're not trying to win, even if its the timmy "i'ma keep trying to win with progenitus untill it works, no matter how unlikely it is" attitude, wtf is the point?

    to test a deck and see wether or not it does what its supposed to. now under ideal circumstances, it will, wvery time, but circumstances are rarely ideal, so the only effective way to test a deck is under fire.

    you can "play to win" without being super serious about the no-holds-barred competitive aspect, to give otherwise nonfunctioal decks a chance to do the cool things you're trying to do, that don't work at all in other formats.

    you could, for examole, play only commons and uncommons, you could only play cards in a deck that represent the faction they  are part of (eg a r/w deck with only boros cards, or a green phyrexia deck with only phyrexian cards,) you could play block or set specific decks, you could play with only cards having a converted mana cost under 5, or 4, or 7.

    To play an inherently competitive game though, and then complain that other people actually compete is.........we'll go with counter intuitive. If you're dissastisfied with how the matches go, get better, or propose a format that will allow you to play in a way you both enjoy.
    Point taken, but let's say my girlfriend wants to play, and wants to play as Angels.

    Not only Angels, but Angels Only.

    Angels are freakin expensive, the lowest being three mana (But require a creature to be sent back into your hand). No real pure white angel deck is going t obe able to pull that off competitively.

    SWEET! I JUST GOT MY GIRLFRIEND TO PLAY MAGIC WITH ME!

    Now along comes my brother, the Spike to my Johnny and my Gal's Rookie. He's using Breaking Points, Snapcasters, Gutter Snipes, Blazing Salvos, Shocks, and Browbeats, all low cost, high effect cards. He spots weakness and exploits it, easily wasting her, and because I used a off the wall deck, myself as well.

    Is he not a douchebag for tearing her a new one repeatedly when she just started playing the game?

    There is a time and a place to NOT be using a 5/5 competitive deck.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:52 am

    no, he's not. there were no rules (you specified) that he had agreed to play by to prevent him doing so, so he was right to steamroll her.

    1. She's been shown that her deck is not effective in that format
    2. She's been shown why her deck is not effective in that format
    3. She's been shown what parts of her deck are effective in that format
    4. She's been shown what parts of his deck are effective in that format.

    She now has a couple optioins.
    1. Learn the format, and improve the deck
    2. look up, Play or create a format where her deck is competitive (or have it done for her)
    3 stop playing.

    She was going to have to reach this point anyways, so its better it happens sooner than later. Your friend, by winning handily, has given her a great deal of information (wether or not she absorbs it.) You can aid her in this instance by explaining the information and her options. (eg, you could recommend angels/clerics or an angle token/l ifegain deck if she still won't play with other creatures.)

    Its a competitive game, your friend cannot be held accountable for the amount of fun she has. however frustrated she might have been at loosing, i'd bet he'd be just as boored playing to her level wothout having built a deck (and how is he to know what to build without format rules?)

    Same thing I told generic, find/make a format that allows her to play as she wants to effectively, as long as the competitor can compete (ie be the best they can) within the format (especially as your friend) they can likely be convinced, or improve and find a new way to play


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:41 am

    to actually help, If she wants tribal, and is willing to do something other than angels, merfolk, faries and unicorn tribal are all stereotypically girly things and are pretty scary tribal (with unicorns its mostly enchanting the stronger few and tieing up the blockers with prized unicorn.) Clerics fit the holy archtype, if she'll go for that, elves are all about beauty if thats what she's drawn to. If you go multicolored, you can mana spam with green and/or red and/or artifacts to drop uber angels like akroma, avycyn or malestrom angle on like turn 4.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:52 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:to actually help, If she wants tribal, and is willing to do something other than angels, merfolk, faries and unicorn tribal are all stereotypically girly things and are pretty scary tribal (with unicorns its mostly enchanting the stronger few and tieing up the blockers with prized unicorn.) Clerics fit the holy archtype, if she'll go for that, elves are all about beauty if thats what she's drawn to. If you go multicolored, you can mana spam with green and/or red and/or artifacts to drop uber angels like akroma, avycyn or malestrom angle on like turn 4.
    So she's not allowed to play the game how she wants, she has to metagame?


    My brother isn't playing for 50 bajillion thousand dollars. He's playing a "Friendly" match with my girl and me. Explain to me in tiny words as to why he should use his $350 deck to fight her $40 in a non-tourney setting.

    (The only acceptable answer is because he's compensating for something)


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 05, 2013 3:19 am

    no, its not. she's allowed to play however she wants, and i did specify that by saying its entirely feasable to attempt to get the friend to agree to a different format.

    he was not (that you expressed) asked/required to do so though. I enjoy playing my best decks even if i'm just flattening whoever i'm against. it very well could be that he was simply having fun how he has fun, and you're judgement on how he enjoys playing is absurd. his way of playing the game is just as valid as yours/hers.

    as i said, you can suggest a different format so that you can all play how you enjoy playing without face smashing, or you can improve. those are the logical choices. if he enjoys playing with you, i see no reason he wouldn't agree to play pauper (cpmmpns only) or a similar low level format should you ask. you probably shouldn't expect hime to hold back within that format either, but you'll have cut out most of the powerful combos by banning uncommons and up for your matches.


    in other words, you can play however you want, but it is highly illogical to play a inherently competitive game gimped and then be upset when you lose, because someone else didn't play gimped.


    for the record, monitary value is not the measure of a deck. i have a $100 edh deck that beat a field of 8 decks, all worth more than 500, and one was worth 1500. my u/w allies is worth a grand total of like 20 and it beats tournament winning decks (walks all over caw blade, for example, even if they're running jtms the blink cards in innistrad and the 1 and 2 cost counters from modern are crazy powerful in a deck built on 1 and 2 cost creatures.)


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:39 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:no, its not. she's allowed to play however she wants, and i did specify that by saying its entirely feasable to attempt to get the friend to agree to a different format.

    he was not (that you expressed) asked/required to do so though. I enjoy playing my best decks even if i'm just flattening whoever i'm against. it very well could be that he was simply having fun how he has fun, and you're judgement on how he enjoys playing is absurd. his way of playing the game is just as valid as yours/hers.

    as i said, you can suggest a different format so that you can all play how you enjoy playing without face smashing, or you can improve. those are the logical choices. if he enjoys playing with you, i see no reason he wouldn't agree to play pauper (cpmmpns only) or a similar low level format should you ask. you probably shouldn't expect hime to hold back within that format either, but you'll have cut out most of the powerful combos by banning uncommons and up for your matches.


    in other words, you can play however you want, but it is highly illogical to play a inherently competitive game gimped and then be upset when you lose, because someone else didn't play gimped.


    for the record, monitary value is not the measure of a deck. i have a $100 edh deck that beat a field of 8 decks, all worth more than 500, and one was worth 1500. my u/w allies is worth a grand total of like 20 and it beats tournament winning decks (walks all over caw blade, for example, even if they're running jtms the blink cards in innistrad and the 1 and 2 cost counters from modern are crazy powerful in a deck built on 1 and 2 cost creatures.)
    While it is my job to explain to my GF that certain creatures/spells are better than the others, how in the world am I supposed to explain Cipher? Lifelink? Haste? What about old mechanics like Banding or Flanking? If I try to explain everything in one go, it will quickly go over her head, causing her to either put down the game due to MASSIVE INFO DUMP, or just be so confused she'll start thinking Double Strike means Vigilance/First Strike means Haste (But he Strikes the First turn he comes out!). What about telling her that "Green has Big Creatures and Red Has giant spells, but Gruul have little creatures that easily become big!" And then throwing her against my R/G Mana Ramp Burn deck? There is simply too much to go over to simply tell her "Yeah, Angels aren't that awesome as a deck, try playing Shapeshifters instead".


    Now, neither my brother or Girlfriend are stupid. She knows that she isn't going to be winning any games since she's new. He SHOULD know that you don't take a tourney deck against someone who just started playing IN A CASUAL GAMING GROUP. This has NOTHING to do with Format.

    It's not that I'm saying "Don't play to win", but rather "Give her a fighting chance, even if you are going to beat her".


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:46 pm

    again, not so. it creates false assumptions on the power of effects/decks/cards. Its easy to dismiss haste untill you get stomped by goblins on turn 2, so that is exactly what a goblin deck should do to her (as an example)

    mtg is an extremely involved game with over 1000 rules governing the various mechanics. its a lot to learn at once, but there is no way around that except route memorisation. You can remind her what the carious mechanics do if you're there, but she will need to be able to play on her own and that means knowing card effects and how they interact.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Slarg232 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:20 am

    Except she isn't playing to become pro; she's using my cards to spend time with her boyfriend, because she felt she was dragging me shopping too much (Which I honestly didn't mind, as I was spending time with her).

    If your girlfriend were to ask you if she could play Dark Souls, would you just throw her the game and say "Have fun"? After all, being abused is a core part of that game.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:30 am

    yes, i would. she doesn't have to be playing to be pro. I'm not pro. i do however know the rules and mechanics, have learned the basic mechanics required to succeed at a mid-midhigh level.

    If you want to help her, explain her mistakes to her, don't be mad at him for accomplishing the goal of the game.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Slarg232 on Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:46 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:yes, i would. she doesn't have to be playing to be pro. I'm not pro. i do however know the rules and mechanics, have learned the basic mechanics required to succeed at a mid-midhigh level.

    If you want to help her, explain her mistakes to her, don't be mad at him for accomplishing the goal of the game.
    So I suppose you wouldn't be slightly peeved if someone chicken hawked your gal with a +5 Lightning Weapon and +10 Elite Knight Armor, simply because he's invading and it's his job to not give people a fighting chance?


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by densetsushun on Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:43 am

    Oh dear, I was wondering when it would blow up like this. I dislike seriously competitive people and the attitudes that accompany them, but I'd have to agree with Forum Pirate on this one. If you're introducing a friend to your playgroup or you're dissatisfied with how the attitude is in your playgroup, or even a certain person, take it up with them. Set clear rules and boundaries and see if they'll play with you in those rules. Generally, no matter how crazy competitive, most MTG players are very lenient to the newcomers should they ask for it. Sometimes they can even spot the new players and offer help. That doesn't mean that they'll play less competitively, but if you want them to then bring the issue up.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by GenericUsername on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:26 pm

    Ya wow I didn't mean to start all this.

    Anyway, more Theros spoilers and holy I need this in my simic deck batman

    http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/prophet-of-kruphix/
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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:32 pm

    Slarg232 wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:yes, i would. she doesn't have to be playing to be pro. I'm not pro. i do however know the rules and mechanics, have learned the basic mechanics required to succeed at a mid-midhigh level.

    If you want to help her, explain her mistakes to her, don't be mad at him for accomplishing the goal of the game.
    So I suppose you wouldn't be slightly peeved if someone chicken hawked your gal with a +5 Lightning Weapon and +10 Elite Knight Armor, simply because he's invading and it's his job to not give people a fighting chance?
    not when she has the same type of gear available to her and is simply choosing not to use it. even if you don't have the cards they can be bought and many, many great cards are less than 50 cents.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:46 pm

    GenericUsername wrote:Ya wow I didn't mean to start all this.

    Anyway, more Theros spoilers and holy I need this in my simic deck batman

    http://www.magicspoiler.com/mtg-spoiler/prophet-of-kruphix/
    u/g merfolk i would think. that +merrow commerce.





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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Slarg232 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:11 pm

    Meh, work has been murder, and there really isn't a point to dig up the old argument that is really getting us nowhere anyway. All in favor of dropping, say I.

    I.


    Anyway, working on putting together two new decks; one is U/W Standard (Theros Heroics + Cipher Cards, most notably Battlewise Hoplite + Hidden Strings/Hands of Binding/Trait Doctoring (It can target any creature, but proceeds to fizzle out if the target has no text to change)) and a story telling Eldrazi Deck.

    Four Orcish Lumberjacks are on a mission to clear some forests, but they come across some Satyr Hedonists in the middle of a ritual. Ignoring them, the Lumberjacks proceed to clear the forest, which causes nightmares to pop out of the ground like daisies.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by GenericUsername on Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:46 am

    Question about Planeswalkers.

    Can they be specifically targeted by attacking creatures?  I know most spells or abilities don't affect them, unless it specifically says " permanent " or " planeswalker ".  But I got a Gideon, Champion of Justice and I saw all these people complaining that an opponent can just turn around and attack him.  Isn't that only true if I chose to block with him or someone assigns trample damage to him?

    http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=366345
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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:00 am

    Wait, what?

    No, he can be targeted by any action that targets a player (as opposed to a permanent, lightning bolt can target him, as can creatur attacks.) This means that i can attack him instead of you, and then you have to block (with your creatures) or he takes damage (loses loyalty counters) and can die.


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by GenericUsername on Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:06 am

    Forum Pirate wrote:Wait, what?

    No, he can be targeted by any action that targets a player (as opposed to a permanent, lightning bolt can target him, as can creatur attacks.) This means that i can attack him instead of you, and then you have to block (with your creatures) or he takes damage (loses loyalty counters) and can die.
    So basically,

    You could say you attack me and then I block with creatures or take life damage.

    Or you could say you attack Gideon, then I block with creatures and he lives, or don't block and he dies and I take no life damage.
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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by densetsushun on Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:58 am

    GenericUsername wrote:
    So basically,

    You could say you attack me and then I block with creatures or take life damage.

    Or you could say you attack Gideon, then I block with creatures and he lives, or don't block and he dies and I take no life damage.
    That's pretty much it yeah.


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    2) If you try to make it about you, you'll sound ridiculous.

    Steve Jobs:
    Almost everything--all external expectations, all pride, all fear of embarrassment or failure--these things just fall away in the face of death, leaving only what is truly important. Remembering that you are going to die is the best way I know to avoid the trap of thinking you have something to lose. You are already naked. There is no reason not to follow your heart.
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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by GenericUsername on Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:16 pm

    So it looks like Gideon is going in my Azorius deck then.  The last time I used it, I kept my opponent from attacking for 3 consecutive turns.

    And I just looked through my old deck to add in Gideon and give it a once over.  I had like 30 creatures in there and way too many damn spells.  I just trimmed the fat and other useless cards out and its looking much better.
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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

    Post by GenericUsername on Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:07 pm


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    Re: Magic the Gathering, There has to be others who play :D

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