Fast roll vs Mid roll

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    Shakie666
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    Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Shakie666 on Thu May 23, 2013 5:01 pm

    I've done a fair amount of pvp in the past. Not loads, but a fair amount. Most of it has been with fast-rolling builds it order to dodge stuff. However, in pve I prefer mid-roll/tank builds. I was just wondering how viable that is in pvp. I would very much like to use a build such as this, but i'm worried i'll get completely ROFLstomped by ninja-flipping spear users and the like. Not only that, if they run away to heal, i'll never catch them. So how could I get the most out of this build? Or, could anyone suggest a similar build that might be better?

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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Animaaal on Thu May 23, 2013 5:06 pm

    Mid-rolling isn't bad for pvp imo, there's just little room for error. Most dex builds can get relatively the same defenses for half the cost and maintain the fast roll.

    I made a magic/tank/mid-roller a while back, and had a lot of fun with it. Imo magic tanks are prolly the best tanks, but I haven't enough experience with them to state that as "fact".

    Also, mid-roll or tank, doesn't necessarily mean strength and ultrashield, imo.
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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Shakie666 on Thu May 23, 2013 5:15 pm

    Animaaal wrote:Also, mid-roll or tank, doesn't necessarily mean strength and ultrashield, imo.

    I know that. However, I like to use big-monster weapons such as the DGA, as well as big-monster shields such as havel's (i'm awful at parrying). Originally, I was going to try and give it some faith for a sunlight blade, GMB and all that good stuff, but I think that's asking a bit too much
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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Ghadis_God on Thu May 23, 2013 5:48 pm

    I don't see the point of a little more poise and 50-100 points more defense compared to the massive difference that fast roll makes. I can fast roll with 54 poise on almost any build while sacrificing little of what midroll builds do.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Shakie666 on Thu May 23, 2013 6:22 pm

    I wanted to try something, if you'd read the OP...

    Besides, I can't fast roll with a DGA and havel's shield

    Also: why stop at 53 poise? Greatswords can't stunlock anymore.
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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Elifia on Thu May 23, 2013 6:41 pm

    Shakie666 wrote:I wanted to try something, if you'd read the OP...

    Besides, I can't fast roll with a DGA and havel's shield

    Also: why stop at 53 poise? Greatswords can't stunlock anymore.

    Would be nice if you actually read some of the responses to your posts. The_Red_Drifter linked you this video earlier:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=in9CPUkue7s

    You can definitely stunlock with a greatsword. You need 56 poise to resist the running attack though, and probably a lot more for the strong attack.

    However, something I've noticed is that hitting someone in the back (or dead-angling them, which does the same) causes a different stagger. A longer stagger. It makes it much easier to stunlock. So in this case the 53 poise might save you.

    And one last thing, getting your attack interrupted is pretty annoying too. It's not just for stunlocks.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Animaaal on Thu May 23, 2013 6:46 pm

    Shakie666 wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:Also, mid-roll or tank, doesn't necessarily mean strength and ultrashield, imo.

    I know that. However, I like to use big-monster weapons such as the DGA, as well as big-monster shields such as havel's (i'm awful at parrying). Originally, I was going to try and give it some faith for a sunlight blade, GMB and all that good stuff, but I think that's asking a bit too much

    Sorry dude, I wasn't trying to insinuate anything. I wasn't trying to point out the obvious offensively or anything. So my bad, just in case you took it that way. winking

    Things I think work good with mid-rolling:

    -HCSM/Pursuers
    -Horizontal swinging weapons.
    -Pyros
    -The blk and slv Kinght Shields.

    However, you might be able to forgo a certain amount of poise with Havel's Shield. The "special buff" Havel's gives you, gives a crazy amount of poise. You'd have to make sure you use it, but it could make up for a lack of poise.
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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Myztyrio on Thu May 23, 2013 7:08 pm

    Animaaal, I'm gonna fat roll on you.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Thu May 23, 2013 7:14 pm

    https://mugenmonkey.com/darksouls/?c=163762345266562883

    this is my prefered midroll setup, though the weapons vary depending on the situation.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Latitoast on Thu May 23, 2013 7:21 pm

    I've used a Tarkus build for PvP, it fat rolled, never do it.

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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by SirArchmage on Thu May 23, 2013 7:43 pm

    The main difference, for me at least, between fast rolling and mid rolling is that with fast rolling you will dodge to avoid attacks and spells. With mid rolling you will dodge to avoid spells, and occasionally R2 swings. You will be relying on your shield more with the mid roll, and I don't suggest going to fat roll unless you are practiced with it. The fat roll is definitely a viable option for someone that knows what they are doing. But I don't necessarily recommend it unless you have at least 77 poise, want to use a Great Shield, or are in love with those super heavy weapons. Which seems you are all of the above, based on that build. And if you go tank, an easy way to avoid people healing is quickly switch to a crossbow. Train with it so that you can whip it out and fire it as soon as you think they will be healing. And something that would be useful that not too many people do, is invest in defensive miracles. Most only do it for TWoP, but there are others that can be very much utilized. Magic barrier is the end-all tactic against sorcerers, Replenishment can save you from many situations, Vow of Silence is something no one expects and can give you a lot of easy deaths from people with faith or magic builds. Great Heal can save your *** a lot, and Karmic Justice can destroy any spammers you meet.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Animaaal on Thu May 23, 2013 8:02 pm

    Myztyrio wrote:Animaaal, I'm gonna fat roll on you.

    That sounds great. thumbs up

    But, I usually do it on Friday and Saturday nights after the kids go to bed...I'll call ya. happy
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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by LunarFog on Thu May 23, 2013 8:27 pm

    If I was you, I'd menu swap between Artorias shield(for stability) and cleansing shield(for magic). That'll save you enough weight to equip a secondy, quicker weapon just in case you need it. Or even an avelyn

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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by reim0027 on Thu May 23, 2013 10:31 pm

    Fast roll. Unless I'm in the Forest and need to poise gouge. Poise is far more important than defense when you are being ganked.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by SadPanda on Thu May 23, 2013 11:43 pm

    Shakie666 wrote:

    Also: why stop at 53 poise? Greatswords can't stunlock anymore.
    I could take you up in a duel and you'd re-think that Well What is it
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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Myztyrio on Fri May 24, 2013 12:13 am

    Animaaal wrote:
    Myztyrio wrote:Animaaal, I'm gonna fat roll on you.

    That sounds great.

    But, I usually do it on Friday and Saturday nights after the kids go to bed...I'll call ya.

    PM'd you my number


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by RANT on Fri May 24, 2013 12:20 am

    DWGR


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by CrackSouls on Fri May 24, 2013 12:20 am

    IMO if you are going to use large melee weapons it is best to fast roll. But that is just my opinion. Any build can be used effectively in the right hands, of coarse.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Walter_White on Fri May 24, 2013 1:48 pm

    @OP:
    i also love the big n heavy weapons and midroll from day one. Tried some fast-roll dex builds, but thats not my style.
    Mid-roll is perfectly ok for PvP - you can't run away to environment (to heal or team up against gankers). If the oponent runs away use (cross)bows and/or Lloyds. If a invader heals simply drink some estus and go for the next round.

    I wouldn't go with a Greatshield, thats only good to troll ganker. Better is BKS (fire&lightning defence with high stability) and Crest Shield (magic spammer) - with both you can parry, so you got something against r1 spammer.
    You also win some space for a light weapon for wakeups and BS fisher punishment (like QFS or a handaxe).
    And at last - i prefer more poise over defense, so i would switch some of the armor to Havel.
    Oh - 61 End? nonono!
    At 40 no more Stamina, so stop at 40 and do the rest with changing equipment. I reduced your build to SL99 by going down to end 40. Mask of Child, Havels Gauntlets, rest Giant: 84 Poise. BKS and crest Shield, Demons Greataxe and Handaxe.

    pump the 21 in vit, or att/fai/int for some side stuff gimmicks. dex for the Black Knight Weapons is also not wrong.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by RANT on Fri May 24, 2013 2:37 pm

    med roll is perfectly fine for pvp, specially when you have havel's shield you don't need anything else, you just gotta be careful when you attack since everyone is just gonna try to roll bs or straight up bs, also remember that trading hits is best for tanks like this. solid build btw, that extra end is worth it just for havel's shield and medium roll.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Shakie666 on Fri May 24, 2013 3:28 pm

    Walter_White wrote:@OP:
    i also love the big n heavy weapons and midroll from day one. Tried some fast-roll dex builds, but thats not my style.
    Mid-roll is perfectly ok for PvP - you can't run away to environment (to heal or team up against gankers). If the oponent runs away use (cross)bows and/or Lloyds. If a invader heals simply drink some estus and go for the next round.

    I wouldn't go with a Greatshield, thats only good to troll ganker. Better is BKS (fire&lightning defence with high stability) and Crest Shield (magic spammer) - with both you can parry, so you got something against r1 spammer.
    You also win some space for a light weapon for wakeups and BS fisher punishment (like QFS or a handaxe).
    And at last - i prefer more poise over defense, so i would switch some of the armor to Havel.
    Oh - 61 End? nonono!
    At 40 no more Stamina, so stop at 40 and do the rest with changing equipment. I reduced your build to SL99 by going down to end 40. Mask of Child, Havels Gauntlets, rest Giant: 84 Poise. BKS and crest Shield, Demons Greataxe and Handaxe.

    pump the 21 in vit, or att/fai/int for some side stuff gimmicks. dex for the Black Knight Weapons is also not wrong.

    I avoided a pinwheel mask on purpose, normally I use them all the time unless its a mage build, but in this case it just felt wrong somehow.

    There's also no point me trying to parry in pvp, it'll never happen even with my good connection. As for R1 spammers, a well-timed hit from big weapon like the DGA will stop them. I find usually just attacking as soon as someone gets within range is enough to disrupt their attacks.

    Finally: why would I stop at sl99? I don't want to use the arena.
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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Sentiel on Fri May 24, 2013 4:08 pm

    All roll speeds are PvP viable and effective, however, the slower the speed the more difficult it is to master the more severe are the punishments if you make a mistake.

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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by lordgodofhell on Fri May 24, 2013 4:50 pm

    Shakie666 wrote:
    ...(i'm awful at parrying).


    Practice. Seriously. Those who don't have this tactic in their arsenal are at an extreme disadvantage against skilled opponents. Greatshields are awesome for the cosplay stuff, but outside of that have no real advantage over shields that can parry. We can get tons of stability (not that it's needed) and the same defenses as the greatshields while saving weight.

    Change your shield and you can fast roll AND use big ol powerful str weps.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by sparkly-twinkly-lizard on Fri May 24, 2013 4:56 pm

    what you say is true except in the case of havels shield and its l2 buff which gives you essentiall infinite (or verry very high) poise and makes weapon bounce off you giving you counter damage bonuses.


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    Re: Fast roll vs Mid roll

    Post by Sentiel on Fri May 24, 2013 5:37 pm

    I'm not sure, but I think only Iron Flesh gives the weapon rebound effect upon hit.

    Only real use for greatshield is being able to block pesky spell spammers, however being unable to parry is a huge disadvantage imo.


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