"Cookie Cutter" Builds

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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Darkson on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:56 pm

    ^ This.

    Something that somehow says: "I respect your oppinion, I kind of understand your argument, but..." followed by the most important thing in my oppinion: An own argument! This will hopefully lead to something you can call a discussion.

    Will stop ranting now too...


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Sat Mar 03, 2012 10:46 pm

    Lol we shall all stop ranting. big grin


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Chumgeyser on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:24 pm

    As someone new to the game, a reader of this forum, and someone looking to build a PvP character...

    I was thinking it would be nice to have a backflipping tank, or someone that is difficult to kill, because it sounds like Dark Souls PvP is nothing but back stabbery.

    I don't want to make a backstabbing character, just one that can survive against a backstabber. How are you supposed to do this without a ninja flipping tank?

    Also... is ninja flipping that much more effective than simply having a fast roll?
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Whknight on Sat Mar 03, 2012 11:29 pm

    Covers slightly more ground and a slightly quicker recovery time. Depending on what the weight burden is each roll tier not only has a distance but also a recovery time which can also mean life or death.

    In regards to fighting against people that don't play fair, don't play fair back. In all honesty I would only apply fairness to fight club, random invasions can be crushed in any way I see fit. If you are summoning or summoned by the red stone you just have to take the cards you are dealt and change your strategy as you need to.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:23 am

    Chumgeyser wrote:Also... is ninja flipping that much more effective than simply having a fast roll?

    It's not so much that Ninja Flipping is more effective than fast rolling, but just that you can be at 50% equip weight and do it, whereas you need to be 25% for fast roll. Mathematically, to wear heavy armor and fast roll, you need practically 99 End and Havel's Ring... That's too high a price just for the payoff of heavy armor!

    Personally, though, I like to make builds with >76 poise and fast rolling, just because I can! People don't expect a toon wearing only gloves and pants to be able to withstand a greatsword hit without getting stun-locked, and they pay the price for their ignorance and hubris!


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:14 am

    Chumgeyser wrote:

    I was thinking it would be nice to have a backflipping tank, or someone that is difficult to kill, because it sounds like Dark Souls PvP is nothing but back stabbery.

    I don't want to make a backstabbing character, just one that can survive against a backstabber. How are you supposed to do this without a ninja flipping tank?

    I wouldn't go so far as to say that backstabbing is the be all end all of pvp. It certainly gives whoever gets one off on their opponent the edge in combat but tbh, and this is only anecdotal and from my perspective, I've only found that people who use heavy armours like Giants really go for back stabs deliberately.

    This is perhaps because the know an oppenent has no chance of stunlocking them easily and as such go for the BS.

    Also about surviving back stabs... If a player wanted to BS fish all of his duels he has the capacity to one shot almost anyone.

    I prefer not to worry about it and just play however I see fit. Though if someone presents thier back to me I'll be all over that ****.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:03 pm

    Chumgeyser wrote:
    I was thinking it would be nice to have a backflipping tank, or someone that is difficult to kill, because it sounds like Dark Souls PvP is nothing but back stabbery.

    I don't want to make a backstabbing character, just one that can survive against a backstabber. How are you supposed to do this without a ninja flipping tank?

    From where I play, BS do happen, sometimes a lot. But, that majority of fights are not BS spammage or fishing. I'm 120-125 in the Burg.

    There isn't a specific build that can survive BSs. You can try vitality builds, but they aren't very strong, especially at SL 120 and above.

    The best way to avoid BS is to not get BSed. If someone is coming you decked out on poise, then watch out for the poise BS. The other best thing to do is move constantly. If they roll toward you, toll toward them.

    It helps if you learn how to BS. Once you learn how to do it, you can see them coming earlier. This is because, with practice you can set up BSs, know which weapons and which attacks are more prone to BS, and you'll have real time experience doing them, making it easier to avoid.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:49 pm

    If they're going for a poise bs, there's not much you can do, is there? They're waiting for you to attack them, at which point they'll use the time you're stuck in the attack animation to get behind you and bs. The instant you attack, you're screwed. Can't parry either because they're just waiting for you to attack them.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:57 pm

    You can counter BS them. Also, you can strafe with them, slowly get closer, and instarun into a pivot BS. You might surprise them, since they are only focusing on one thing.

    Be very mobile. Roll a lot, roll attack and roll away. You can also unlock randomly, it can mess them up.

    Poisestabs are powerful, but it makes them very predictable.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Chumgeyser on Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:11 pm

    What's a poise backstab?
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:15 pm

    Meh. I'd rather get killed by a poise-backstabber than play into his game and get into a strafing match. If he's pathetic enough to do nothing but wait for a poise-bs, then I won't waste my time fighting him, let alone his way. I'll attack him like I attack anyone, and if I expedite my death in the process, so be it, it only means I'll be fighting my next opponent sooner.

    Edit: Explaining a poise-backstab: when you attack an opponent, depending on their poise (stat determined by armor), they will either get staggered, stun-locked, or, if their poise is high enough, not be phased at all by your hit. If an opponent is staggered, his action is interrupted by your attack and he will have to start it over. If he's stun-locked, he's temporarily paralyzed by your attack, leaving you free to hit him again. If his poise is high enough, he won't be affected at all by your hit. You, on the other hand, will be stuck in your attack animation that isn't finished yet while they make their way around you and backstab you.

    Edit 2: I was writing my explanation while Reim posted his answer!


    Last edited by BLA1NE on Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:19 pm; edited 2 times in total


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:17 pm

    Chumgeyser wrote:What's a poise backstab?
    When you have really high poise, you can run through attacks. So, a poise stabber will just run and do a pivot BS (run to your side and BS you). You can't stun them as they'll run through your attacks.

    So, watch out for the strafing Havel's Estoc/Rapier/Bandit's Kinfe/Zwei player.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Darkson on Sun Mar 04, 2012 8:06 pm

    reim0027 wrote:
    ...
    The best way to avoid BS is to not get BSed...

    LOL silly


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Forum Pirate on Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:33 pm

    how do you instarun? i've seen it done but i've never known how. spears btw, the attacks are so fast and have so much range that the poise stabbers cant bs you unless they guess your timing (in my experience) and if they guess your timing its probably your fualt for being predictable.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by reim0027 on Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:45 pm

    You have to be locked on to your opponent. Walk backward, while holding O, for a second or two, then go forward, and you'll be running. Same goes for strafing.

    It works because you can't run backward or strafing, but the game recognizes your input to run. It takes a few steps normally to start running. You use those "steps" by going backward or strafing.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Chumgeyser on Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:49 pm

    reim0027 wrote:
    Chumgeyser wrote:
    I was thinking it would be nice to have a backflipping tank, or someone that is difficult to kill, because it sounds like Dark Souls PvP is nothing but back stabbery.

    I don't want to make a backstabbing character, just one that can survive against a backstabber. How are you supposed to do this without a ninja flipping tank?

    From where I play, BS do happen, sometimes a lot. But, that majority of fights are not BS spammage or fishing. I'm 120-125 in the Burg.

    There isn't a specific build that can survive BSs. You can try vitality builds, but they aren't very strong, especially at SL 120 and above.

    The best way to avoid BS is to not get BSed. If someone is coming you decked out on poise, then watch out for the poise BS. The other best thing to do is move constantly. If they roll toward you, toll toward them.

    It helps if you learn how to BS. Once you learn how to do it, you can see them coming earlier. This is because, with practice you can set up BSs, know which weapons and which attacks are more prone to BS, and you'll have real time experience doing them, making it easier to avoid.

    Would a high poise + shield/spear build have a better chance to avoid backstabbery than most, since you can keep your shield up and poke at them with good range?

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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by barecanvas on Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:53 pm

    Chumgeyser wrote:
    reim0027 wrote:
    Chumgeyser wrote:
    I was thinking it would be nice to have a backflipping tank, or someone that is difficult to kill, because it sounds like Dark Souls PvP is nothing but back stabbery.

    I don't want to make a backstabbing character, just one that can survive against a backstabber. How are you supposed to do this without a ninja flipping tank?

    From where I play, BS do happen, sometimes a lot. But, that majority of fights are not BS spammage or fishing. I'm 120-125 in the Burg.

    There isn't a specific build that can survive BSs. You can try vitality builds, but they aren't very strong, especially at SL 120 and above.

    The best way to avoid BS is to not get BSed. If someone is coming you decked out on poise, then watch out for the poise BS. The other best thing to do is move constantly. If they roll toward you, toll toward them.

    It helps if you learn how to BS. Once you learn how to do it, you can see them coming earlier. This is because, with practice you can set up BSs, know which weapons and which attacks are more prone to BS, and you'll have real time experience doing them, making it easier to avoid.

    Would a high poise + shield/spear build have a better chance to avoid backstabbery than most, since you can keep your shield up and poke at them with good range?
    high poise+sheild pokes. Sounds more like a troll build to me
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:02 pm

    If you're shielding, you're probably either standing still or strafing--both of which are good ways of getting backstabbed. Also, poise does nothing to protect from getting backstabbed.

    A spear isn't a bad idea though. You can keep relatively good distance while attacking. I'd suggest 2-handing it and staying mobile though.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Chumgeyser on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:05 pm

    barecanvas wrote:
    Chumgeyser wrote:
    reim0027 wrote:
    Chumgeyser wrote:
    I was thinking it would be nice to have a backflipping tank, or someone that is difficult to kill, because it sounds like Dark Souls PvP is nothing but back stabbery.

    I don't want to make a backstabbing character, just one that can survive against a backstabber. How are you supposed to do this without a ninja flipping tank?

    From where I play, BS do happen, sometimes a lot. But, that majority of fights are not BS spammage or fishing. I'm 120-125 in the Burg.

    There isn't a specific build that can survive BSs. You can try vitality builds, but they aren't very strong, especially at SL 120 and above.

    The best way to avoid BS is to not get BSed. If someone is coming you decked out on poise, then watch out for the poise BS. The other best thing to do is move constantly. If they roll toward you, toll toward them.

    It helps if you learn how to BS. Once you learn how to do it, you can see them coming earlier. This is because, with practice you can set up BSs, know which weapons and which attacks are more prone to BS, and you'll have real time experience doing them, making it easier to avoid.

    Would a high poise + shield/spear build have a better chance to avoid backstabbery than most, since you can keep your shield up and poke at them with good range?
    high poise+sheild pokes. Sounds more like a troll build to me

    Hmm, it's starting to sound like everything that is effective people here get pissed about. So... it's butt naked with a broken straight sword, low vitality, and no casting or you're being cheap?
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:27 pm

    Turtling is effective and not really trolling (it can turn into a trolling fight however). But, they are so damn BORING to fight. The fights against a turtle suck . . . hard. If I'm facing a turtle, I'll give it a shot. But, if it takes too long, I just leave. I have better things to do than strafe for 5 minutes.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:31 pm

    Chumgeyser wrote:Hmm, it's starting to sound like everything that is effective people here get pissed about. So... it's butt naked with a broken straight sword, low vitality, and no casting or you're being cheap?
    No one ever said that on these forums. You're misinterpreting.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by barecanvas on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:33 pm

    Turtling isnt even always effective. They can easily pull out a shotel and hit with harder damage than your spear. Or if youre turtling against a high poise guy, he will just ignore your hits and bs you anyways.
    edit: or they can just bleed you out with pricillas dagger
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Chumgeyser on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:42 pm

    BLA1NE wrote:
    Chumgeyser wrote:Hmm, it's starting to sound like everything that is effective people here get pissed about. So... it's butt naked with a broken straight sword, low vitality, and no casting or you're being cheap?
    No one ever said that on these forums. You're misinterpreting.

    Isn't that why this thread got started?

    It would be nice if the experienced PvPers put together a list of "cheap" PvP builds as well as acceptable PvP builds. I'm sure many would ignore it but there would be many that go by it also.

    I'm not "twitchy" and I don't want to work at becoming "twitchy." Backstabbing is all about being twitchy, so any build where I can avoid backtabbing and being backstabbed is what I'm looking for. I'd prefer it wasn't a "cheap" build that pisses everyone off, but if the choices are to become a backstabber or use a "cheap" build... well I'll probably go with "cheap."
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:52 pm

    Chumgeyser wrote:
    BLA1NE wrote:
    Chumgeyser wrote:Hmm, it's starting to sound like everything that is effective people here get pissed about. So... it's butt naked with a broken straight sword, low vitality, and no casting or you're being cheap?
    No one ever said that on these forums. You're misinterpreting.

    Isn't that why this thread got started?

    It would be nice if the experienced PvPers put together a list of "cheap" PvP builds as well as acceptable PvP builds. I'm sure many would ignore it but there would be many that go by it also.

    I'm not "twitchy" and I don't want to work at becoming "twitchy." Backstabbing is all about being twitchy, so any build where I can avoid backtabbing and being backstabbed is what I'm looking for. I'd prefer it wasn't a "cheap" build that pisses everyone off, but if the choices are to become a backstabber or use a "cheap" build... well I'll probably go with "cheap."
    The problem is this. "Cheap" and "trolling" is subjective. We will never agree 100% on what is cheap. So, we can't build a list about that.

    The better you get at PvP, the less you feel things are cheap.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by BLA1NE on Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:58 pm

    ^This.

    Also, no matter what you do, someone will think you were cheap.

    In my opinion, as long as you're not pulling off ridiculous lagstabs, then practically everything is fair game. Except TWoP--that's still not cool.


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