Pyromance should require a Stat

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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by ICEFANG on Sun May 19, 2013 1:30 am

    Do you understand that I'm saying we should have the exact system we have now, but also a stamina bar for magic?


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Sun May 19, 2013 1:32 am

    But then there can be items to stack that mana bar ICEFANG. I don't think that is the answer.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Dibsville on Sun May 19, 2013 1:44 am

    Mana bar will just be exploited, whether you can replenish it or not people will find a way to overkill it.
    We should stick to limited casts for now.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by ICEFANG on Sun May 19, 2013 1:45 am

    But there doesn't have to be, there are so few that affect your stamina bar, we could do the same thing with this mana bar, or even none.

    There are still limited casts, all this would do is prevent people from spamming, why is this impossible to understand?


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun May 19, 2013 1:46 am

    ICEFANG wrote:But there doesn't have to be, there are so few that affect your stamina bar, we could do the same thing with this mana bar, or even none.

    There are still limited casts, all this would do is prevent people from spamming, why is this impossible to understand?
    How fast does this bar recharge? Because too fast, and it's not doing anything, too slow and you just killed an entire playstyle.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Dibsville on Sun May 19, 2013 1:48 am

    If there's a bar, it will be exploited.
    People will stack on mana to allow extra casting of powerful spells instead of waiting for the extra cast from the bar's natural recharging.

    On top of that, mana is bound to have some sort of replenishment, which would be complete overkill for any mages.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by ICEFANG on Sun May 19, 2013 1:48 am

    It regens at the perfect speed.

    How fast is that? I dunno.

    Dibsville wrote:If there's a bar, it will be exploited.
    People
    will stack on mana to allow extra casting of powerful spells instead of
    waiting for the extra cast from the bar's natural recharging.

    On top of that, mana is bound to have some sort of replenishment, which would be complete overkill for any mages.

    Except we still have the same limited casts, so you can't exploit it that way.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Animaaal on Sun May 19, 2013 2:07 am

    RE: mana

    I don't care how its done, but I want to be able to replenish my attunements. I really could never get into that "wizardy" type of role play when playing pve. ALWAYS had to resort to melee/bows as primary and casting as secondary. Personally I hated it. Thats just my pve point of view.

    When considering pvp, I equally hated running out of castings my pvp playstyle was built around, and be forced to rehit a bonfire to get my castings back and pvp how I wanted to.

    I like mana better. Spamming??? So is r1, same concept. As far as grassing for mana, people do the same with greens, so its the exact same concept for melee.

    I want mana back. Nerf it, idc, i just want to regen attunements.

    RE: pyro

    I think a damage over time concept would serve pyro well. Also, you shouldn't be able to stack pyro damage with items and armor meant for boosting miracles and/or sorceries...I always thought that was kinda dumb. Pyro has PW, get your damage boost from that.

    Also, pyro is the poor man's magic. I was glad there was something in the game that could be used by every build, because there are certain areas designed towards exploiting certain builds. I would hate to see that taken away. In other words I'd hate to make a mage build, and be stuck somewhere in the game like Duke's for example and have no way out because of the way I made my build.

    I also like the fact pyro can be deadly early on. It helped with speed runs and what not. I thought that pyro was very well planned out....with the exception of boosts from items and armor.

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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Aevun on Sun May 19, 2013 5:37 am

    Make it scale with strength?


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by PhlyingDutchman on Sun May 19, 2013 3:03 pm

    Animaaal wrote:
    Also, you shouldn't be able to stack pyro damage with items and armor meant for boosting miracles and/or sorceries...I always thought that was kinda dumb. Pyro has PW, get your damage boost from that.

    Definitely!

    On self-inflicted damage:
    I also think that self-damage would help balance pyro out at low levels. Make the amount of self-damage scale with the glove upgrade level, and the strength of the spell. This would mean that a level 1 pyromancer would only barely be able to survive casting chaos firestorm with a fully upgraded glove.

    On chaos pyromancy:
    I've said it in other threads, but I think that chaos pyromancy should be an ascension path for your glove. Chaos-glove-cast pyros would have slightly lower base damage, but have humanity scaling and the lava effect. Following on my first point, they would also inflict more self-damage, and the resulting lava will burn you if you step in it.

    On limited castings:
    I see little difference between the attunement system and a recharged-by-bonfire mana system. In both cases, you can take a few casts of big spells or a bunch of little ones, the only difference being you have to choose your exact mix beforehand with attunement. I think a spam penalty would be fine, and here's how I think it could work:

    1. Your flame only recharges at bonfires, and maybe partially on humanity consumption.
    2. You still attune pyromancy, but it isn't given a specific cast number. The total flame pool is determined by your attunement level.
    3. Each spell costs a certain amount from your flame pool, which would be proportional to the current system i.e. Great Fireball cost 2 times as much as Fireball, Great Chaos Fireball 4 times as much. With 16 attunement (4 slots), you'd have enough flame for 2 chaos firestorms, 24 fireballs, 320 flame surges, or some combination thereof.
    4. Each time you cast, your flame pool depletes permanently by the amount of the cast plus an additional cooldown penalty. The cooldown penalty depends on the spell, but recharges automatically over time.
    5. Casting another pyro during the cooldown would forfeit the unrecovered flame pool. It could also result in weaker spells or increased self-damage.


    I welcome your comments.

    It's a very similar system to what we have currently, but I think it would be a little harder to abuse, and higher risk-reward. I love the idea that pyromancy is a wild, uncontrolled, raw type of magic, and would like to see it be risky and dangerous for the player using it too much.

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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by TouchMyGrundel on Sun May 19, 2013 11:58 pm

    Just make pyromancy require certain resistance stats to use some spells. This would give resistance a point. You have to be able to resists the flame, so the stronger your resistance stat is, the stronger fire power you can use.
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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by samster628 on Mon May 20, 2013 4:00 am

    I really dont want a mana bar. That belongs in world of warcraft and the many rip offs of world of warcraft in the world. Linited castings really work and prevent you from spamming spells cos you dont want to run out. If you do run out do what i do - switch to a magic or enchanted wepon of low requirements such as a longsword or of you have the ability use the moonlight greatsword. i actually agree with ICEFANG's first post on this thread, that pyromancy should rise with your overall level until level 50. This will prevent people from invading low leveled people with powerful high level pyromancy.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Serious_Much on Mon May 20, 2013 10:17 am

    I feel like instead of a stat it scales with for power.. Pyro should use stamina:

    As you upgrade the pyro flame, or use more powerful spells, the amount of stamina used up by the spell increases: the increase in pyro glove level effect on stamina is obviously less than the effect of more powerful spells.

    This would balance it I feel, as it replaces stat investment of magic with usage of stamina, causing it to not be as spammable or used as easily with weapons as an offhand attack


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 10:23 am

    samster628 wrote:...I really dont want a mana bar. That belongs in world of warcraft and the many rip offs of world of warcraft in the world. Linited castings really work and prevent you from spamming spells cos you dont want to run out...
    WoW? I'm sorry man, but mana has been around waaaaaaay before WoW. And who cares about magic spammers? The pro pvpers will just roll bs you anyway. There's only a couple magic combos that are almost immpossible to counter, and spamming is not one of them. As far as pyro consuming stamina...no...I don't want to see any castings require stamina consumption...UNLESS...they offer are real pure caster that can combo spells into stunlocks without the hassle of pressing: r1, up on d-pad, L1, up on d-pad twice, r1, etcetcetc. If they fixed that, I'd be all for castings consuming stamina.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Mon May 20, 2013 11:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by TheDarkPygmy on Mon May 20, 2013 11:45 am

    What if Pyro uses stam, but when you run out of stam you take damage per cast?


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Myztyrio on Wed May 22, 2013 8:25 pm

    You do technically need 4 strength, attunement, intelligence for small scaling, and dexterity for speed.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by lastminuteman on Wed May 22, 2013 8:35 pm

    have it only do proper damage if you have a lot of humanity, but have it burn away your humanity when you use it... I believe this would fit the lore if i remember it correctly, plus it would give people more reason to keep humanity... and maybe this would make losing humanity actually seem like a loss.
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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by ICEFANG on Wed May 22, 2013 9:09 pm

    Myztyrio wrote:You do technically need 4 strength, attunement, intelligence for small scaling, and dexterity for speed.

    Every character has 4 STR, its not a requirement, INT does nothing, and DEX is not required. ATT is required for all spells but you can still equip the ATT ring, cast it, and drop it off. Every character can use a fully powered pyro spell. Every single one.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Elifia on Wed May 22, 2013 9:22 pm

    ICEFANG wrote:
    Myztyrio wrote:You do technically need 4 strength, attunement, intelligence for small scaling, and dexterity for speed.

    Every character has 4 STR, its not a requirement, INT does nothing, and DEX is not required. ATT is required for all spells but you can still equip the ATT ring, cast it, and drop it off. Every character can use a fully powered pyro spell. Every single one.

    Attunement and dexterity still allow you to be a more effective pyromancer. But isn't the beauty of pyromancy that everyone can use it?


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by ICEFANG on Wed May 22, 2013 11:16 pm

    Yes as I've already said in this thread I like that part about it. But the name of this thread, require a stat, Pyro does not require anything. A Sunlight Straight Sword requires 12/12, and it gets more powerful if you put more points into it, for it to be effective you may need 20-40/20-40, but to use it, all you need is 12/12. Pyro requires nothing, but to be effective you may need DEX.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by emraluces on Thu May 23, 2013 2:51 am

    Please forget any notions of PVP application in regards to Pyromancy scaling. What actually matters, is the LORE. In the Dark Souls universe, pyromancy is dependent only on the glove of it's wearer (at least as far as we've been told... so far).

    All that's required of you is to memorize the spell. The glove is the vehicle by which the magic is delivered, not a skill one must acquire. In my humble opinion, Dark Souls 2 should (in some sense it must) retain the pyromancy mechanic as one dependent on the power of the Pyro Glove of its wielder.

    All that said, a greater selection of fire resistant shields/gear, or fire quelling magics, would be welcome by most of us I think. As long as those tactics are a part of the world/lore, and not just gimmicky mechanics.

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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by Elifia on Thu May 23, 2013 3:09 am

    emraluces wrote:Please forget any notions of PVP application in regards to Pyromancy scaling. What actually matters, is the LORE. In the Dark Souls universe, pyromancy is dependent only on the glove of it's wearer (at least as far as we've been told... so far).

    All that's required of you is to memorize the spell. The glove is the vehicle by which the magic is delivered, not a skill one must acquire. In my humble opinion, Dark Souls 2 should (in some sense it must) retain the pyromancy mechanic as one dependent on the power of the Pyro Glove of its wielder.

    All that said, a greater selection of fire resistant shields/gear, or fire quelling magics, would be welcome by most of us I think. As long as those tactics are a part of the world/lore, and not just gimmicky mechanics.

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    I would hate to see that happen again…


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by ICEFANG on Thu May 23, 2013 9:58 am

    He also says that the flame develops right along with your skill and when he gives you the flame he gave a part of himself.


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by emraluces on Thu May 23, 2013 10:03 am

    What 'stat' do you think that comes from, ICEFANG? Which of his skills is he giving you with his glove?


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    Re: Pyromance should require a Stat

    Post by emraluces on Thu May 23, 2013 10:10 am

    It's not just the flame that determines your prowess as a pyromancer. One rule all pyromancers should live by is 'Vereor Ignis', lest you be devoured by it, and lose yourself.
    I would hate to see that happen again…

    Well, I didn't say THAT at all. What I said was, a pyromancers power (not prowess) comes from the power of his/her glove in the lore of Dark Souls. And, that it SHOULD come from the glove, and NOT from a stat.

    Only one humble opinion though. I could be wrong, of course.

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