"Cookie Cutter" Builds

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    "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by goober0331 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:13 pm

    So whats all this negative talk about these "cookie cutter" builds. I recently changed my build around and removed the Ring of Favor since my build is complete and replaced it with Havels, since the other rings dont suit my playstyle. Because of this I can wear the heaviest armor in the game (Havels, Giants etc.) and I use Giants Chest, Hands and feet, with Mask of the Child for my head. I dont like having to use Green Blossoms so figured I would withstand the decreased armor from a better head piece and went with the Mask.

    So my poise sits at 77, enough to resist 1 hit from an Ultra-Greatsword, and still have really good overall defense. I like being prepared for anything in PVP and to have all the bases covered, but I get hatemail from all these crybabies that dont like getting killed in PVP and say I have a "cookie cutter" build (dex/faith) because of my armor.

    My question is, why do people get so much hate for wearing heavier armor? Dont you want to wear the best possible armor, and use the best weapons for your playstyle to succeed in PVP?

    I would be a fool to not use up as much of my Equip/Weight load with lighter, or less effective armor, so dont get pissed cause you loose!

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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:18 pm

    I like cookies.
    I dont wear giants because i dont like the look, but i dont mind other players that do use it. Anyone that sends hatemail is not worth listening to.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Lancelot on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:31 pm

    I dislike the look as well, but it is very effective. I use the armor frequently.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:39 pm

    Standard is standard for a reason. it works. can be frustrating to deal with yeah but so can a naked guy with a lightning gaxe and hornets ring.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by barecanvas on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:40 pm

    I dont like to cheese to win lol
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by ted1023 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 9:47 pm

    Lol.. I love how people send you hate mail for using the options that the game has provided. It's not like you hacked the game and created your own gear and weapons.. they have the same ability to wear what they want same as you, but since they don't, they want to complain to you for it..lol


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by xXDaemonarchXx on Fri Mar 02, 2012 10:20 pm

    Conformist! Lol, seriously though.....I would just block them.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by reim0027 on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:08 pm

    Yeah, there is a reason they are cookie-cutter builds. They're effective. Giant's, 77 poise, MoM, MoF, FaP and Wood rings, etc. People shouldn't expect you to handicap yourself. Ignore the hatemail.



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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:16 pm

    I don't hate on guys who have this kind of armour but unfortunately i know i do stereotype them as kind of people who fish BS, are cheap etc.

    I've never worn Giants and I never intend to. I really, really hate the way it looks.. and also I don't like wearing full sets of armour since i like being more original than that.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by RANT on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:47 am

    the only problem i have with it its that its so damn ugly! if i invade or get invaded by someone wearing full heavy armor i try really hard to kick their ***(which i do a lot of times) to let them know that all that armor is not gonna save them against a decent player or my DGM with slb.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:56 am

    reim0027 wrote:Yeah, there is a reason they are cookie-cutter builds. They're effective.

    Forum Pirate wrote:Standard is standard for a reason. it works.

    Basically this. The reason people give hate for it is because it honestly gets rather boring after a while seeing the same things done over and over again. I will be the first to admit that I am pretty hipster when it comes to this, and will deliberately self-limit my builds in an attempt to freshen up the playstyles between characters as opposed to doing the most effective thing that everyone else is doing just to increase my win ratio by 10%. (Insert obnoxiously sarcastic dudebro voice here) Guy in full Giant's +5 wearing a Family Mask and using a fast Dex weapon with a buff? Been there, seen that (/obnoxiously sarcastic dudebro voice). There's absolutely nothing wrong with this, and anyone who actually complains that they lost to a more effective player is definitely in the wrong. At the end of the day though, I'd rather lose a few more rounds, but have my opponents remember me as the guy wearing the Big Hat who almost Chaos Fire Whipped them to death as opposed to "that guy in Giant's that I lost to."


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Kaksoppa on Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:47 am

    Reading the first few lines made me think this thread was a sarcastic mean-spirited shout-out to people using cookie cutter builds.

    But whatever works for you, go with it. Havels+big weapons and stuff doesn't automatically mean that you'll win. More people should realize this.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by sen545331 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 6:51 am

    I have a policy to not wear anything which I don't like the look of. So basically 90% of the medium/heavy torsos and 90% of all helms I won't wear.

    Whatever works for you in all honesty, I get irritated though after a while of running into nothing but huge poise-flipping-zwei-monsters over and over.
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Chumgeyser on Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:14 pm

    It's same in every game that has PvP... Babies Cry.

    I don't get the love for Giant's however, but to each there own. A full set of Black Iron gives you 79 poise, I believe, and looks BADASS! I can't wait to ninja flip in my full suit of +5 Black Iron big grin
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by reim0027 on Sat Mar 03, 2012 3:57 pm

    Chumgeyser wrote:It's same in every game that has PvP... Babies Cry.

    I don't get the love for Giant's however, but to each there own. A full set of Black Iron gives you 79 poise, I believe, and looks BADASS! I can't wait to ninja flip in my full suit of +5 Black Iron big grin
    Black Iron is too heavy. The full set has a weight of 40. So, with End of 40 (80 equip weight), you need a FaP ring to be able to equip weapons. And, even then, you'll only have 8 for all of your weapons. For Giant's Armor, you get 77 poise without the mask, and have 4.2 more weight to play with. There is no significant difference between 77 and 79 poise. Plus, it allows you to wear masks, or crowns.

    Not saying don't use Black Iron. Just, as far as numbers go, Giants is generally superior. But, it usually fails in the looks department.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Chumgeyser on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:28 pm

    reim0027 wrote:
    Chumgeyser wrote:It's same in every game that has PvP... Babies Cry.

    I don't get the love for Giant's however, but to each there own. A full set of Black Iron gives you 79 poise, I believe, and looks BADASS! I can't wait to ninja flip in my full suit of +5 Black Iron big grin
    Black Iron is too heavy. The full set has a weight of 40. So, with End of 40 (80 equip weight), you need a FaP ring to be able to equip weapons. And, even then, you'll only have 8 for all of your weapons. For Giant's Armor, you get 77 poise without the mask, and have 4.2 more weight to play with. There is no significant difference between 77 and 79 poise. Plus, it allows you to wear masks, or crowns.

    Not saying don't use Black Iron. Just, as far as numbers go, Giants is generally superior. But, it usually fails in the looks department.

    Can't you just go with Havel's Ring and Ring of Favor and Protection? I guess you aren't ninja flipping but you are still moving at full speed with whatever weapon you like... correct? Or do I have that wrong? I still don't have my Black Iron Armor yet so I don't know. The Stat calculator says that full Black Iron, with a Black Iron Shield and BKGA with the above rings will still put you at a quick roll.
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Reaperfan on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:35 pm

    Chumgeyser wrote:Can't you just go with Havel's Ring and Ring of Favor and Protection? I guess you aren't ninja flipping but you are still moving at full speed with whatever weapon you like... correct? Or do I have that wrong? I still don't have my Black Iron Armor yet so I don't know. The Stat calculator says that full Black Iron, with a Black Iron Shield and BKGA with the above rings will still put you at a quick roll.

    Unlike Demon's Souls, there are three tiers of weight movement in this game, with the fastest being if you are equipped with less than 25% of your maximum equip load, and a "medium" speed if you are between 25% and 50% of your maximum. A person with the ninja flips will actually be running at the speed as if they had less than 25% equip load, even though they are geared to only be less than 50%. While Havels/RoFaP will allow you to get under 50% with anything quite easily, you still will only be running at medium speed and not full speed.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Chumgeyser on Sat Mar 03, 2012 5:54 pm

    Reaperfan wrote:
    Chumgeyser wrote:Can't you just go with Havel's Ring and Ring of Favor and Protection? I guess you aren't ninja flipping but you are still moving at full speed with whatever weapon you like... correct? Or do I have that wrong? I still don't have my Black Iron Armor yet so I don't know. The Stat calculator says that full Black Iron, with a Black Iron Shield and BKGA with the above rings will still put you at a quick roll.

    Unlike Demon's Souls, there are three tiers of weight movement in this game, with the fastest being if you are equipped with less than 25% of your maximum equip load, and a "medium" speed if you are between 25% and 50% of your maximum. A person with the ninja flips will actually be running at the speed as if they had less than 25% equip load, even though they are geared to only be less than 50%. While Havels/RoFaP will allow you to get under 50% with anything quite easily, you still will only be running at medium speed and not full speed.

    Ah ok...

    I plugged full Black Iron, Black Iron Shield, BKGA and the Dragon Slayer Bow as a backup weapon into the calculator with Havels/RoFap and it said I was at Fast Roll. That is different than runspeed then correct?

    If this is the case, am I still going to get backstabbed unmerciful since I'm not running at full speed, or with practice and Fast Roll will I be ok?

    Man I really want to go with full Black Iron. It's my favorite looking armor in the game. Giant's looks kinda WoWish to me :|
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Darkson on Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:24 pm

    Don't take this as an insult or whatever, this is just how I honestly feel, and I'm also not trying to compensate for my lack of skill at pvp or anything else I may lack of. Just listen to me, please.

    I'm sorry, this is just based upon my own experience, but whenever I see a ninja flipping dude in Giant Armor, with some herpa derpa mask and that green particle effect, I can be 90% sure he'll do nothing else than fishing for backstabs or casting WoG. It would not be such a huge deal actually, because that outfit makes him predictable. But there is literally no other "non-cheap" build that really works against those builds. You can't easily hit such a guy, and if you hit him, you don't do much damage, and you can't interrupt his dodge/attack/backstab fishing because of his high poise. So attacking him won't do much but increase his chance of getting a backstab, and lag makes it even worse of course. If you manage to drain his health somehow (with another cheap tactic maybe) and he feels like he's about to die, he just flips and sprints away and heals. Then maybe if you're lucky you can get a backstab yourself, and maybe if there is no lag and your timing is perfect, you can chain-backstab him, but for me this is just impossible. And one bad timing and he will either flip away, or worse, start spamming WoG. I immediatly get staggered if he WoGs while he got his back turned to me by the way. And then he will backstab me, heal while I'm down, then use WoG and backstab again until I'm dead. Then I can enjoy the "YOU DIED" message and a dumb-looking douche doing a taunt. And this is what more than half of my fights are, and THIS is why I immediately get mad at someone using that build:

    Because whenever I see a similar "outfit", I just have to think about how damn tired I am of these kind of builds and of all those things mentioned above that are just connected to it in my head already.

    I can't speak for everyone, but my general and shorter answer to this is:

    People who hate "Cookie Cutter" Builds are simply... really damn tired of them.

    I hope you didn't take this more as a rant than rather an attempt to convey my feelings, along with what I've experienced. Because when someone asks me why I hate these builds, he's basically asking me how I "feel" about them, and what causes me to have such an oppinion. I am in no way longing for fights/flame wars or whatsoever.


    Last edited by Darkson on Sat Mar 03, 2012 9:41 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : typing errors :/)


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Tolvo on Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:49 pm

    ^
    Pretty much this right here, it's the reason why when I see someone like that I usually just chain BS them to death, Cheap tactic to beat a cheap tactic. If I enter to see someone with a Mask of the Mother, Moonlight Sword flipping like a ninja, I'm just going to BS them. If they hit me once I'm dead anyway, why not make the same apply to them?
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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Whknight on Sat Mar 03, 2012 7:53 pm

    I feel Darkson summed up my own thoughts quite perfectly. There is a vast amount of armor and weapon combinations and in a game where skill gives you a huge edge, there is no reason at all for this. Winning is not everything, it's about having a good time. Long Live Fight Club!


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Darkson on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:00 pm

    Thanks for agreeing. Really helps me dealing with those things lol big grin

    I just would like to add this for the eventual upcoming replies to my post to clearify things in advantage maybe...

    Please don't come with a reply like: "How can you blame them for taking every advantage the game offers?" - I don't blame them, I'm not that pathetic to "hate" these people just because they play this game with a different kind of attitude. I just hate these builds, meaning: I hate that the game offers them to use such builds. My critic goes against the game itself, and I'm sorry if this hasn't been made clear in my previous post.

    Please don't come with a reply like: "You just have to deal with it, this is just how the game mechanics work." - Yes, this is how the game works, and I have learned to somehow "deal with it" already by this time, but that is not even a relevant statement. This post has the purpose to tell you my oppinion. About the "imbalance" of this game. I know I can do nothing but deal with it or make my own game, but I can also say what could be done better in my oppinion. That is the whole point, and as I already said, it also helps me to deal with it if I find someone here who feels the same.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by ViralEnsign_ on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:04 pm

    I somewhat agree with darkson. I can't say i like running into people in heavy armour (simply because i'm a dex build and I find it hard to break through their poise) but tbh I have no beef with the Giants or Havels.

    Just those cursed masks of the family. (Not rant) Even in a world full of crazy dangerous monsters ready to eat your face how often do you think you could find a man able to wear solid rock (I believe thats what Havels armour is made from) and wield a weapon the size of three men and still be able to run like a champion.

    Not that I'm complaining about the games mechanics, for I love Dark Souls in its entirety and no other recent game compares, but I think there should be some kind of limits on how fast a Tank character can move even with the DWGR on.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Darkson on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:30 pm

    ^ That's what I always say about the DWGR. Even in a game, in a fantasy world, flipping tank characters feel and look ridiculous.

    Whenever I say this ring has too much power (as it completely removes all downgrades you get from wearing heavy armor), I just get responses like this:

    "The Havel's and DWGR combination takes away 2 ring spots"

    Wow. Tell me one ring combination that gives you so much power. Heaviest armor, highest poise, best protection + fastest movement speed + ninja flipping??? I mean seriously...

    "I think the nerfs need a nerf"

    Very good argument.

    "I think you need to stop crying and get some skill"

    Another good argument. Thanks to you I see were the real problem lies now...

    "Oh, I think the sword hilt needs a nerf too. In fact, we should all run around naked fighting with our fists."

    Well done Sir, you're funny and hilarious overstatement completely eliminated every argument I had.

    "Just deal with it"

    ...? Yeah.

    Just some examples how people can act like complete douches in here.


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    Re: "Cookie Cutter" Builds

    Post by Whknight on Sat Mar 03, 2012 8:45 pm

    I can understand there will always be two or more sides to any arguement, but what really annoys me the most is, that in my eyes at least, I don't see anyone really acknowledge the other sides arguement. I'm trying to stay away from threads about game changes now because I'm being reminded so much of the banter that went through FFXI about the smallest tiny detail that could make or break a piece of gear for being 'useful'.

    Yes I dislike quite a few items that are being excessivly used, yes I understand there are methods or ways to get around them, yes I wouldn't mind seeing some form of change brought about, yes I know you don't like that I want to see change, and yes I understand that currently I just have to deal with it. The least anyone could remotely do is say, "Yes I know exactly what you are going through and while I respect your opinion I have to disagree with such and such being changed, and here is my reason why..." It's not that hard and you are being respectful as opposed to just saying "Get better."

    Now I'm sorry for my rant, I'll go cool off and behave the rest of the day.


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