the Mega Mule

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    RevolverSnake
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by RevolverSnake on Wed May 15, 2013 3:45 pm

    Glutebrah wrote:
    RevolverSnake wrote:I tried mega mule with a diffrent account and I noticed that I got the weapon upgrade trophys. But I didn't get the knight's honor trophy after I put every weapon in my bag. Why is that?

    Mega mule doesn't include Fire or Raw weapons, so you probably need to make those first

    I don't think you need the upgraded weapons for knight's honor or do you?


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Wed May 15, 2013 10:45 pm

    I can't agree with the MM in its current form. I'm not against the concept, I think it's fine if it saves you a reasonable amount of time. I'm just against the builds where it saves you an unreasonable amount of time. If somebody wants to go through 5 playthroughs so they can WoG me 15 times, they've earned it. If they want to spend countless hours farming so they can always use a crystal weapon, or have 50 +15 weapons to quick swap to, they've earned it.

    The problem is when they get this stuff from the mule. They haven't earned it, and now they have an unfair advantage over me. I don't use crystal weapons because I'd have to farm a lot to keep it repaired. If you're willing to spend the time, then you've earned that and it's a fair advantage. That's the point of crystal weapons, they're overpowered because they take that upkeep. Removing that downside through save editing to gain an advantage in PvP is not OK.

    You can say that all it does is save time, but that works both ways. The more time it saves for a certain build, the more of those builds you'll see that you wouldn't have if not for the mule. For example, you'd barely ever see a build with 5 stacks of WoG. On the other hand, you'll also see the creative builds a lot less, which brings me to my "solution". (Quotes because there's nothing to be done at this point).

    I would be OK with a much more restricted mule. Preferably 1 but maximum 2 playthroughs worth of stuff. That's 1 or 2 of each item, 1 or 2 stacks of each spell, the number of slabs you'd normally get in that many playthroughs, etc... This way you have the ability to quickly create reasonable PvP characters that don't have an unfair advantage over people who created theirs legitimately.

    Edit: I also like the concept of the arena where you can just create whatever you want, but I think it's a bit crazy to just allow people access to everything right from the start. Maybe only open it after you beat the game or something, I don't know.
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Micha369 on Thu May 16, 2013 5:45 am

    This mm or bb glitch should only work for a separate zone like the arena!

    If I have a sl 10 char I can get pvp-opponents within the range of the level restrictions from about 1 to 21. It simply is unfair having a pvp opponent of sl 21 with all the best equipment imaginable!


    Last edited by Micha369 on Fri May 17, 2013 4:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Elifia on Thu May 16, 2013 6:17 am

    Micha369 wrote:This mm or bb glitch should olny work for a separate zone like the arena!

    If I have a sl 10 char I can get pvp-opponents within the range of the level restrictions from about 1 to 21. It simply is unfair having a pvp opponent of sl 21 with all the best equipment imaginable!

    Are you invading with Dragon Eye? Because that'd probably be the only case where it'd be 1-21. If they're invading as a red you they can only be 1-11. If they're using red sign it'd be 1-22. Not sure about blues, but it all depends a lot on sin. And if you are invading as a red it'd be 9-713.

    Btw, I have a legit SL1 and SL10 with all the best equipment available, so I don't see what this has to do with MM.


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by twigsterxd on Thu May 16, 2013 8:53 am

    Just curious. What's the difference between MM, BB and a gift wraith, (for those who don't know gift wraith is a person who gives a player gifts)? When I bought this game last january, I was on my 2nd day of gaming and had 3 different gift wraiths give me stuff. Having MM and BB is really not that big a deal. Yes it may be cheating but it's no different than a person who gifts other people stuff. But a gifter isn't classed as a cheater. It's not like the ones with MM are gonna be able to make a build that allows them to use every weapon in their inventory. At least these people can be hurt. I read somewhere that pc users have a god mode type hack. At least MM doesn't give that


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Dibsville on Thu May 16, 2013 9:10 am

    A gift wraith and the MM have nothing in common.
    IMO; I'm not going to use the MM, yet I'd happily accept gifts from a gift wraith.
    Nothing is better than getting dropped 5 Manus Souls. Hurrah


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by AnCapaillMor on Thu May 16, 2013 9:14 am

    Dibsville wrote:Nothing is better than getting dropped 5 Manus Souls.

    What about 5 manus souls and a gargoyle helm, surely thats better.


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by raecor14 on Thu May 16, 2013 9:31 am

    TBH if i am that desperate to make an experimental build ill go to my Sun_Bro_Number_42 PSN delete the patch and make it using the almighty dragonhead glitch


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by ScottyDoesKnow on Thu May 16, 2013 10:24 am

    twigsterxd wrote:Just curious. What's the difference between MM, BB and a gift wraith, (for those who don't know gift wraith is a person who gives a player gifts)? When I bought this game last january, I was on my 2nd day of gaming and had 3 different gift wraiths give me stuff. Having MM and BB is really not that big a deal. Yes it may be cheating but it's no different than a person who gifts other people stuff. But a gifter isn't classed as a cheater. It's not like the ones with MM are gonna be able to make a build that allows them to use every weapon in their inventory. At least these people can be hurt. I read somewhere that pc users have a god mode type hack. At least MM doesn't give that

    BB is a bit better than MM in that you actually had to get the item. I don't know if BB duplicates or transfers the items but if it duplicates it's almost as bad. Just slightly harder to do.

    I also think "gift wraiths" are a bad thing, or at least on the first playthrough they are. I'm sure if I had been gifted stuff when I started I would have taken it, but now looking back it would have really damaged my enjoyment of the game. Dark souls is supposed to be hard. Besides that, if people are gifting things to you that easily it's most likely because they got it illegitimately. And if they did, they're most definitely classes as a cheater.

    And in reference to "It's not like the ones with MM are gonna be able to make a build that allows them to use every weapon in their inventory." I actually have seen streamers who are good at quick swapping and will change between a lot of weapons either at the start based on who they're facing or even during the fight. I'm not sure how common this is but it does happen.

    Dibsville wrote:A gift wraith and the MM have nothing in common.
    IMO; I'm not going to use the MM, yet I'd happily accept gifts from a gift wraith.
    Nothing is better than getting dropped 5 Manus Souls. Hurrah

    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. If someone's dropping you 5 Manus souls they most likely got it from MM. How is that nothing in common?
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Hugh_G_Johnson on Thu May 16, 2013 1:38 pm

    ScottyDoesKnow wrote:I also think "gift wraiths" are a bad thing, or at least on the first playthrough they are. I'm sure if I had been gifted stuff when I started I would have taken it, but now looking back it would have really damaged my enjoyment of the game. Dark souls is supposed to be hard. Besides that, if people are gifting things to you that easily it's most likely because they got it illegitimately. And if they did, they're most definitely classes as a cheater.

    And in reference to "It's not like the ones with MM are gonna be able to make a build that allows them to use every weapon in their inventory." I actually have seen streamers who are good at quick swapping and will change between a lot of weapons either at the start based on who they're facing or even during the fight. I'm not sure how common this is but it does happen.

    Dibsville wrote:A gift wraith and the MM have nothing in common.
    IMO; I'm not going to use the MM, yet I'd happily accept gifts from a gift wraith.
    Nothing is better than getting dropped 5 Manus Souls. Hurrah

    I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not. If someone's dropping you 5 Manus souls they most likely got it from MM. How is that nothing in common?

    Yeah, I was going to ask Dibsville where he thought the 5 Manus Souls came from...



    I can see what you mean about a giftwraith ruining the game. I had that happen on my second character, it kind of took something out of it. However trading, muling and now mega mule have added to my enjoyment of the game overall. It lets me make builds quicker and experiment.

    I love dark souls, but I don't enjoy the grind of going from SL 1 to about SL 60 and usually don't feel comfortable until around SL 80. After that I'm ok and I don't mind farming, forging and playing through multiple times for more slabs and spells. And, I'm not kidding... I decided to make an SL 100 version of my SL 120. So, I got everything I wanted for the would be 100 with my 120. I went looking for a mule and found someone with MM, so they just gave me all the MM stuff. I rarely notice the difference when I'm going through my menus between my 'legit' 120 and my MM aided 100. The only differnces is the 120 has some +4 stuff that I rarely if ever use and the 100 has some extra +5 stuff that I never or rarely use. I've also seen streamers who are very good at quick swapping and have inventories full of upgraded material that they had before MM. I know of a streamer who has a SL 1 in NG plus 7. And even at that I saw a streamer last night fight a Havel and the chat was saying "shotel! shotel!" but he didn't know where it was in his inventory so he couldn't switch to it. So it's not like having a ton of weapons at your disposal is necessarily illegitimate or practical.

    I'm not saying that there aren't abuses, of course there are. But, I use it at SL 100-125 to try out builds, weapons and techniques that I otherwise wouldn't be able to or would be incredibly time consuming. It's something that actually allows me to get more out the game.


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Dibsville on Thu May 16, 2013 5:21 pm

    There's a difference between getting something from someone else and clearly breaking the point of the game.
    If I'm on some new file and someone drops me a Lightning Claymore, I'm going to use it. As compared to mega mule which has everything.
    Just because I used Manus souls as an example doesn't mean they're the same thing.


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by retro on Thu May 16, 2013 5:53 pm

    The mega mule has been very helpful for testing purposes. I always wished I had a gaming PC so I could use a cheat engine, but so far I've had to do everything the hard way... sometimes dedicating entire playthroughs just to add information to the wikis or find out how something works.

    With the mega mule I'm generally able to just jump in and check out what I want to much more quickly.

    I never used the bb glitch and don't feel inclined to use it for quick-building PvP characters, though. For that I think I still prefer the old fashioned way. But for something like this... I did about 3/4ths of the testing without the mega mule:
    http://darksoulswiki.wikispaces.com/Humanity+Farming#Soft%20Humanity

    It took so damn long. Then I got my hands on MM, and dear god was that a lifesaver for finishing it up. happy
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Micha369 on Fri May 17, 2013 5:03 am

    Elifia wrote:
    Micha369 wrote:This mm or bb glitch should olny work for a separate zone like the arena!

    If I have a sl 10 char I can get pvp-opponents within the range of the level restrictions from about 1 to 21. It simply is unfair having a pvp opponent of sl 21 with all the best equipment imaginable!

    Are you invading with Dragon Eye? Because that'd probably be the only case where it'd be 1-21. If they're invading as a red you they can only be 1-11. If they're using red sign it'd be 1-22. Not sure about blues, but it all depends a lot on sin. And if you are invading as a red it'd be 9-713.

    Btw, I have a legit SL1 and SL10 with all the best equipment available, so I don't see what this has to do with MM.

    Because its very hard to get this in normal play. I don't think that I'd be able to get myself a build with sl 10 (or even with sl 1) with all the best equipment! And mm enables all people to have low level chars with all the best stuff. This means at the end I'm confronted with lots of such build in pvp and I constantly will loose! That is frustrating! And I'm forced to use this mm as well.
    Lots of guys like me who aren't that good at pvp (and never will) are enabled to get such builds. I'm sure lot of people who aren't able to beat others in pvp simply will manipulate their chars a litte for that goal. This leads to a boring pvp after all. In the Undead Burg we only will find pvp opponents with high level chars!
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Elifia on Fri May 17, 2013 5:48 am

    Because its very hard to get this in normal play. I don't think that I'd be able to get myself a build with sl 10 (or even with sl 1) with all the best equipment! And mm enables all people to have low level chars with all the best stuff. This means at the end I'm confronted with lots of such build in pvp and I constantly will loose! That is frustrating! And I'm forced to use this mm as well.
    Lots of guys like me who aren't that good at pvp (and never will) are enabled to get such builds. I'm sure lot of people who aren't able to beat others in pvp simply will manipulate their chars a litte for that goal. This leads to a boring pvp after all. In the Undead Burg we only will find pvp opponents with high level chars!

    I assume with 'high level chars' you mean 'low level chars with end-game equipment'. And those have been around since forever. In fact, I doubt that there'd be a lot of crappy-equipment invaders in Undead Burg before MM because you'd need to get some item to do these invasions. In the case of Darkwraiths, you need to beat 4 Kings. MM has changed absolutely nothing regarding the low level griefer situation.


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Animaaal on Fri May 17, 2013 10:35 am

    So the MM gives you 20 gazillion stacks of spells?

    Look guys, not everyone has enough skill to get even 1 stack of Dark Bead at sl 15, let alone have 18 casts. I know people that couldn't beat Arty at soul level 15 if there was real money at stake.

    That alone should be reason enough to patch it.

    Also, a couple people have mentioned "testing purposes".

    Where's the poise damage numbers for something other than a few pyros???? DB??? DO??? I haven't seen them. :suspect:

    I have seen no new relevent hard research posted anywhere. As far as testing new builds...really?.....really? I'll give you a tip, don't use Astora's Straight Sword. Everything else is posted somewhere by someone...except for those poise numbers....I bet they wont show up anywhere either. Shrug
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Micha369 on Fri May 17, 2013 10:52 am

    People who get bored by the game should quit playing this and do something different. But they shouldn't ruin other players pvp section of the game! They also have spent their money for a phantastic game and have the right to enjoy it.

    Fromsoft please prevent cheaters from playing pvp against the others!
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri May 17, 2013 11:01 am

    Micha369 wrote:People who get bored by the game should quit playing this and do something different. But they shouldn't ruin other players pvp section of the game! They also have spent their money for a phantastic game and have the right to enjoy it.

    Fromsoft please prevent cheaters from playing pvp against the others!

    Please explain to me how any of my builds in my sig are ruining your pvp experience. Also tell me what part of the build is cheating and how you would know if I used the Mm or not.


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Animaaal on Fri May 17, 2013 11:07 am

    There's obviously a need/desire/want for a "respec" option. Some people need a way to "reinvent" themselves from a pvp perspective.

    I just think this is a poor solution, albeit the only solution I suppose.

    I remember a time after the first patch and before the bb glitch, you would encounter a low level invader decked out in high level gear and consider it an honor.

    Now it sounds like Dark Souls is in the same category as any other popular online game rife with hackers. Thats a big turn off to me.

    I'm not interested in that kind of experience. There are people who only use/have used this glitch and the bb glitch for pvp and nothing more. For that I commend them.

    I do think the integrity of the game is tarnished by those that dont, and I hate to see that in my.....my.....souls game..... sad
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by barrywilkins on Fri May 17, 2013 12:36 pm

    To put things into perspective about just how much of an advantage MM gives players, I'll just plain list everything you get that any other player on NG can't get.

    A) Any weapon that is once per ng you have a +15 normal, +5 crystal, +10 magic, +5 enchanted, +10 divine, +5 occult, +5 lightning, and +5 chaos copy of. To put this into perspective that is: 3 Regular Slabs, 2 Blue Slabs, 2 White Slabs, and 1 Red Slab per weapon. This is 1 New Games worth of guaranteed slabs assuming you have Artorias of the Abyss expansion. So it gives you one Ng worth of slabs, thats not to bad right? Well, one must also factor in the fact that this is for every weapon in the game. Go ahead and do the math on how many New Games it'd take for a legit player to catch up to something a Mega Mule using player gets instantly.

    B) You start with 5 copies of any spell a character is capable of getting more than 1 copy of, saving you 5 New games worth of planning and playing to get them.

    C) You start with the Lordvessel before leaving the Asylum, allowing you to skip doing the following levels: Undead Parish, Blighttown, Sen's Fortress, and Anor Londo. If a player wants to host in these levels and also have a completed build, they must be in at least Ng+, and cannot host in any levels later/before their chosen level Ex: someone Hosting in Sens can't host in Blighttown/Parish, and someone in Anor Londo cannot host in the 3 previous levels.

    You can claim you are only doing it to save you some time because "you have a busy life" or something like that. However, the long and short of it is that you are in fact putting yourself at a very huge advantage to legitimate players via a hack. The first two advantages that MM gives don't give you something that another player can't emulate but, for them to do so they must take the risk of fighting ng+5 enemies at whatever sl they have chosen. Something a mega mule user doesn't have to contend with, and therefore doesn't even realize the advantage they have over the legit player.

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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Aevun on Fri May 17, 2013 12:46 pm

    I still fail to understand why the MM is bad for the game. The only point I kinda understand is low level characters getting multiple stacks of pursuers or the like. But that still only affects THEIR experience and only if they are new players. I've completed the game maybe 15 times from scratch and now I can only stomach one playthrough a month. The mule is obviously intended for people who just wish to pvp without the need for farming of items or having to progress to ng+ just to reach a decent pvp level range.

    Even if a newcomer uses the mule out of desperation, how does it even remotely affect any of you? They're ruining their experience by their own volition. Should they try out pvp they will get demolished by players who know how to counter newbie strategies (turtling, spamming WOG etc.).

    There is no way to recognise if someone is using a "legit" build or one created via the mule. This rules out every possibility of this being cheating in respect to pvp. The mule contains no hacked items, stats, weapons or armour. Purely vanilla stuff. Even the castings are limited in the sense that you can only have one stack of covenant related castings. And again, if people use the mule to make pve easier, it's their loss.

    Low level griefer invasions have been around for a long time. That is not a valid argument. Even without glitches or save editing an experienced player can progress through the game at sl1 without any real problems.

    A point I've mentioned already but I feel the need to emphasise it a bit more: There is no way you can tell if a player you invaded or who has invaded you is using the mule or has dropped 300 hours into that build. You would never know if their build is legit or not unless they told you.

    I've yet to see any actually valid argument against using the mule. Most of it seems to be just people complaining for the sake of complaining.


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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Nybbles on Fri May 17, 2013 12:52 pm

    i'm one of those people that likes to delete old builds to make way for new ones. i used to have a mule that had three of every weapon, a full set of each armor (all un-upgraded) and one un-upgraded version of each of the unique weapons, as well as 99 of every titanite. that was it and it worked well for me.

    i found that it wasn't about trying out a new build so much as playing through the game following a different path that appealed to me, PVPing the whole way through at every level. i still had to build as i went along as all my mule did was circumvent the need to farm endlessly. which is boring as **** and a real crappy way of padding the length of a play through by the developers. where's stockpile when you need him!?

    in the end most of my builds ended up with the exact same or a similar set of stats (28/40, 40/40, 50 in whatever stat was the focus of the build or whatever). after i lost access to the bottomless box and my mule, i found myself repurposing the builds i already had by just altering their load-out. i didn't need to experiment or try new builds because i already had a build with the stats that were needed. i also lost all the fun of having to play through the game to build my character as i went. i could still do this, and sometimes i do, but all that *** farming is so bloody tedious! all because FROM didn't see fit to give you enough material to make a build with one full set of fully upgraded gear without all the farming.

    okay so you say you want to experiment and try something new. well you can, because it's pretty likely that you already have a build with the basic stats that you need to experiment with the weapons and armor you want to use. if it works out, then go ahead and make a new build with the perfect stats, even though the difference is probably only going to be 2 or 3 points in this or that stat. at which point i say you are probably being anal retentive.

    aside form that, Animaal is right. this whole "its for experimenting" is ********, players that want to start with every spell, every weapon and armor already fully upgraded, every ember, access to all warpable bonfires and full stacks of everything, isn't interested in playing the game anymore. they just want to grief those that are or a have fast way to get through the game so can have all those meaningless trophies and say they did something with their lives. i mean really, why even bother playing the game anymore.
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by barrywilkins on Fri May 17, 2013 12:56 pm


    I've yet to see any actually valid argument against using the mule.
    Most of it seems to be just people complaining for the sake of
    complaining.
    The post I made right above yours details everything a Mega Mule player gets in Ng that a legit player cannot. There is actually quite a big difference between Ng enemies and Ng+5 enemies. Just to catch up to what Mega Mule gives a player, someone has to deal with the possibility of fighting enemies that'll two shot most people while the Mega Mule user can laugh off any mobs they've accidentally aggroed during a fight.
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri May 17, 2013 1:04 pm

    barrywilkins wrote:

    I've yet to see any actually valid argument against using the mule.
    Most of it seems to be just people complaining for the sake of
    complaining.
    The post I made right above yours details everything a Mega Mule player gets in Ng that a legit player cannot. There is actually quite a big difference between Ng enemies and Ng+5 enemies. Just to catch up to what Mega Mule gives a player, someone has to deal with the possibility of fighting enemies that'll two shot most people while the Mega Mule user can laugh off any mobs they've accidentally aggroed during a fight.


    so it is cheap for PVE, but not PVP is what you are saying? most people that use MM use it for PVP and not to "blow through NG PVE content"


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    barrywilkins
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by barrywilkins on Fri May 17, 2013 1:11 pm


    so it is cheap for PVE, but not PVP is
    what you are saying? most people that use MM use it for PVP and not to
    "blow through NG PVE content"
    NPC enemies don't stop just because a players invaded. The possibility of dealing with NPCs aggroed during a fight is someone everyone has to deal with. The Mega Muled player might not be too concerned with a couple silver knights rushing at them at sl 120 in ng. The legit player would be pretty much handed a death sentence if a couple of silver knights rushed them in ng+5.
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    Glutebrah
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    Re: the Mega Mule

    Post by Glutebrah on Fri May 17, 2013 1:14 pm

    barrywilkins wrote:

    so it is cheap for PVE, but not PVP is
    what you are saying? most people that use MM use it for PVP and not to
    "blow through NG PVE content"
    NPC enemies don't stop just because a players invaded. The possibility of dealing with NPCs aggroed during a fight is someone everyone has to deal with. The Mega Muled player might not be too concerned with a couple silver knights rushing at them at sl 120 in ng. The legit player would be pretty much handed a death sentence if a couple of silver knights rushed them in ng+5.

    So the only advantage a MM player has is when he is in NG, and and invader tries to use the mobs for help.

    what about dueling? 1v1 no mobs, when the Host/MM user doesn't chase the invader into mobs


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    Chaos Blade is Best Blade

    **NEW**PSN: Glute_brah **NEW**
    SL 55 (Ele) http://mmdks.com/2b2g (Avelyn + WP)
    SL100 (Dex) http://mmdks.com/25vk (Chaos Blade)
    SL100 (Str) http://mmdks.com/2b2h (MSGS)
    SL100 (Pyro) http://mmdks.com/2b2l (FIRE)
    SL120 (Str) http://mmdks.com/2n6r (DGA)
    SL120 (Dex) http://mmdks.com/2n6v (murk) i did it, i sold out
    SL150 (Int) http://mmdks.com/25vm (Velkas + TCC)
    SL149 (Cos) http://mmdks.com/2b2q (Black Knight)
    SL200 (Cos) http://mmdks.com/2b2j (Ornstein)

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    Re: the Mega Mule

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