Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

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    Animaaal
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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Animaaal on Sun May 12, 2013 12:10 am

    raecor14 wrote:
    ill stay on here, i have less of a life than most of the people here silly i have plenty of time to help people enjoy a game that has taken up a reasonable proportion of my life.

    Dats cool, iz just silly ya anyway.

    But really Mario Kart Wi and Zelda Skyward Sword are both excellent games, but they aren't a souls game. I promised I wouldn't get another ps3 until DS2, but its a lot harder than I thought it would be lol.


    Last edited by Animaaal on Sun May 12, 2013 12:44 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : shpeling)
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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun May 12, 2013 1:36 am

    In honor of Jansports wanting people to back up their opinions with ROCK-HARD LOGIC, I'm going to post my own tier list along with an explanation of why I think good weapons are good and bad weapons are bad.

    A+ Tier - Katanas, Thrusting Swords
    A Tier - Spears
    B Tier - Curved Swords, Straight Swords
    C+ Tier - Halberds
    C Tier - Greatswords, Scythes

    D+ Tier - Curved Greatswords, Axes, Hammers, Ultra Greatswords
    D Tier - Fist Weapons, Greataxes, Great Hammers, Whips, Crossbows

    U Tier - Bows, Greatbows, Daggers, Catalysts, Talismans, Pyromancy Flame, Shields

    Everything in A through C Tier are what I consider tournament-viable. That is, in a hypothetical tournament where you're going to need to beat the best-of-the-best in order to win, you won't be crippling yourself by picking anything from this.

    D Tiers are composed of weapons that I do not consider tournament-viable.

    U Tier consists of weapons that are hard to place or do not fit anywhere within the tier list for whatever reason.

    Weapons are judged by how powerful they are in a build focused around using them.

    Explanations (With Art of War excerpts for fun and pretense):

    Katanas — You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended.

    Fast attack speed and recovery makes them difficult to backstab or dodge. Their light attack has a good hitbox that punishes rolls well. Their running attack is arguably the best in the game, giving them a good long-range poke and excellent punish against back-rolls. Bleed combined with good chasing potential gives Katanas excellent pressure against defensive players. Katanas' main weakness is in their neutral game and low damage output. This can be overcome by making careful use of Katanas' safe pokes to chip down opponents while avoiding damage. As long as a Katana user can remain flexible, they will be able to handle any play-style they are faced with.

    Thrusting Swords — The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.

    Control is the theme among Thrusting Swords. The shieldpoke is the core of Thrusting Swords' effectiveness. It is arguably safest attack in the game, being vulnerable only to dead angles and backstabs, and quick enough to avoid both if used well. As well, their strong BS's can discourage BS attempts with the threat of a counterstab. Played defensively, Thrusting Swords can set up a stone wall between them and their opponents. Thrusting Swords also have an oppressive offense. Their one-handed light attack is an excellent back-roll punish, and once you've bullied your opponent into not attacking you, their heavy attack shines as a long-ranged heavy-hitter. They have excellent chasing potential, and when they get in close can force the opponent to continue retreating with shieldpokes and the threat of a strafe BS dominating at close range. Thrusting Swords' damage is very low, forcing them to win via a slow game of attrition, but they come well-equipped to do so. Thrusting Swords' thrive when they are able to suffocate their opponent. A Thrusting Sword user who is adept at using the oppressive toolset at his disposal can make every option his opponent has seem weak, putting doubt and indecision into his mind.

    Spears — Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible.

    Spears want to spend as much time as possible avoiding any actual fighting. Their enormous range coupled with their fast recovery allows them to harass their opponent from safety. In two hands, they can dole out good damage from a distance, and in one hand they can shieldpoke to defend against chasing and have a presence at close range. Spears can frustrate the opponent with their ability to run away and continue harassing them indefinitely, but they have notable weaknesses. Spears do not have good tools for dealing with shields. The dead angles they have are slow and deal little poise damage, leaving them wide open for backstabs. Their backstab damage is trivial. And at their most comfortable range, they have no answer to blocking. A patient Spear user can still stalemate shield users so hard that they abandon safer play and get reckless against the Spear. The true danger to Spears are opponents who can predict a poke. The shieldpoke has a much slower recovery than most Spear attacks and if used predictably can be easily roll BS'd. The two-handed light attack can be punished by good chase attacks, which will trade favorably with the spear and force it to retreat. For these reasons, a good Spear user must be patient and make sure not to fall into a pattern with their pokes.

    Curved Swords — Therefore the good fighter will be terrible in his onset.

    Curved Swords are the champions of slugging. All other things being equal, Curved Swords will beat any weapon in close-range attack spamming. Their fast swing speed allows them to tear through poise at an alarming rate and dish out solid damage. In addition to this, their light attacks can easily dead angle, allowing them to attack without the fear of being parried. If that wasn't enough, they are all but impossible to backstab, either by rolling or using poise, once they begin to mash light attacks. All of this comes together to make a weapon with incredible priority at close range. However, Curved Swords have very short range and are completely reliant upon that close-range priority. As well, their damage output is rather low if they cannot land consecutive swings. Because of this they have trouble dealing with weapons that can safely poke them from outside their range and then roll away in time. While Curved Swords' gameplan is simple, they will go the farthest in the hands of somebody who understands well how to time and space attacks. This will allow the Curved Sword user to get into slugging range and to pick a time to attack where they will get to land multiple attacks in succession before their opponent can escape.

    Straight Swords — According as circumstances are favorable, one should modify one's plans.

    Straight Swords are versatile weapons that sport many useful attacks. The one-handed light attacks have excellent hitboxes on a fast, horizontal swing. The two-handed light attack has a narrow chopping hitbox, not entirely unlike the Uchigatana's. Their heavy attacks do perhaps the best job of complimenting the light attacks of any weapon class. Where their light attacks lack damage and range, their heavy attacks have good reach and, on a poise-stripped opponent or a counter-hit, can lead into big damage. Straight Swords should be played opportunistically, as they have tools to take advantage of nearly any situation. They have good chasing potential with their one-handed running attack (and the two-handed rolling thrust on weapons that have it), their thrust attacks can deal monstrous damage on a counterhit, and on an unsuspecting opponents whose poise has been stripped, can dish out huge combos before the opponent swap escapes.

    Wooh B tier finished.


    Last edited by Saturday-Saint on Mon May 13, 2013 4:03 am; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Jansports on Sun May 12, 2013 4:16 am

    Can't wait to read more Saturday
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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by ICEFANG on Sun May 12, 2013 4:23 am

    I agree, good read. Never really tried thrusting swords before tonight...

    +1


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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Animaaal on Sun May 12, 2013 2:29 pm

    Well here it goes.


    Saturday-Saint wrote:.........

    Everything in A through C Tier are what I consider tournament-viable. That is, in a hypothetical tournament where you're going to need to beat the best-of-the-best in order to win, you won't be crippling yourself by picking anything from this.

    This is the statement that stuck out the most after reading Saint's thesis. The location of the tournament would be precedent in tier selection. In other words, I'd agree 100% with this tier list if I were playing in the pit in lower Blighttown, but not in the Butterfly Forest, or the township, or any other "non-boxing ring" type of playfield, and thats the primary premise my counter-arguments are based on.


    Katanas — You can be sure of succeeding in your attacks if you only attack places which are undefended.

    Fast attack speed and recovery makes them difficult to backstab or dodge. Their light attack has a good hit box that punishes rolls well.

    Piercing weapons and spears also have fast recoveries for their light attacks. However, the katanas attack is (for the most part) the only one of the three that has any variation from an isolated point of attack (Velka's and the Partizan would be exceptions). The katana's light attack is largely vertical, but is oblique enough to create a slightly larger hit box. So while I'll agree with the premise of this statement, I must say it is a very minute detail, and undeserving of serious consideration (unless you're in the pit, then the argument becomes much more valid).

    You can punish rolls with any weapon. I would also say, that this does not make katanas more difficult to dodge in a way that warrants giving them an attribute in this context, unless of course, you're fighting in a tightly enclosed dueling ring, or are talking about the ridiculous phantom range a buffed WP has.


    Their running attack is arguably the best in the game, giving them a good long-range poke and excellent punish against back-rolls.

    The katanas running attack is almost identical to a piercing weapons running attack, but they both lack the range of a spears running attack. As a matter of fact, I'm not sure why one would argue the katanas running attack is better than a spears running attack. They are almost identical. The differences are so small, I'm not even sure if you can legitimately say they are different outside of range. Depends on the katana and spear I suppose i.e. Spear (the actual spear) vs Washing Pole.

    Bleed combined with good chasing potential gives Katanas excellent pressure against defensive players.

    Bleed can be roll canceled, and katanas cannot compare to the chasing potential of a spear, but only because of the spears inherent range.

    Katanas' main weakness is in their neutral game and low damage output. This can be overcome by making careful use of Katanas' safe pokes to chip down opponents while avoiding damage.

    The Demon's Spear and DSS are arguably better and more efficient at executing a chip damage play style against defensive players, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF an opponent that cannot effectively roll cancel bleeds. If that were the case, a katana would have a clear advantage, but so would a Bandit’s Knife and the Gold Tracer for example.

    As long as a Katana user can remain flexible, they will be able to handle any play-style they are faced with.

    I think that can be said for any weapon in the game, not saying the core of the statement is untrue.

    Thrusting Swords — The clever combatant imposes his will on the enemy, but does not allow the enemy's will to be imposed on him.

    Control is the theme among Thrusting Swords. The shield poke is the core of Thrusting Swords' effectiveness.

    I'd agree with that, but spears execute that play style more effectively, again, because of range.

    It is arguably safest attack in the game, being vulnerable only to dead angles and backstabs, and quick enough to avoid both if used well.

    I'd say that the piercing weapons would have a recovery time advantage over spears in regards to the "block and poke". I don't think it would be a large enough of a difference to say you CANNOT include spears in that argument though.

    As well, their strong BS's can discourage BS attempts with the threat of a counterstab.

    While the "mind game" play style is effective in certain circumstances, the mind game argument can be made for the Dark Silver Tracer, a talisman, a pyrohand, etc. It does make piercing weapons more effective when combined with their range as compared to said examples though.

    However, if someone is unintimidated, they are simply unintimidated. However, this point of view starts to stray from a mind game theory, to more of an applicable theory when, again, fighting in an enclosed quarter.


    Played defensively, Thrusting Swords can set up a stone wall between them and their opponents. Thrusting Swords also have an oppressive offense. Their one-handed light attack is an excellent back-roll punish, and once you've bullied your opponent into not attacking you, their heavy attack shines as a long-ranged heavy-hitter. They have excellent chasing potential, and when they get in close can force the opponent to continue retreating with shieldpokes and the threat of a strafe BS dominating at close range. Thrusting Swords' damage is very low, forcing them to win via a slow game of attrition, but they come well-equipped to do so. Thrusting Swords' thrive when they are able to suffocate their opponent. A Thrusting Sword user who is adept at using the oppressive toolset at his disposal can make every option his opponent has seem weak, putting doubt and indecision into his mind.

    I think the mind game is one thing that could make the piercing weapon a more oppressive weapon than a spear. But again, if your opponent is unintimidated, they are simply unintimidated. You can counter-backstab with every weapon in the game. Once a player becomes efficient in counters, the mind game of weapons with bs crit bonuses becomes less intimidating, and could be considered a disadvantage if the piercing weapon user is over confident.

    Spears — Hence the skillful fighter puts himself into a position which makes defeat impossible.

    Spears want to spend as much time as possible avoiding any actual fighting. Their enormous range coupled with their fast recovery allows them to harass their opponent from safety. In two hands, they can dole out good damage from a distance, and in one hand they can shieldpoke to defend against chasing and have a presence at close range. Spears can frustrate the opponent with their ability to run away and continue harassing them indefinitely, but they have notable weaknesses.

    I agree with everything above, and have never heard it more well said.

    Spears do not have good tools for dealing with shields.

    I completely disagree with this, especially when considering the two weapons sitting above them in the tier list. One HUGE overlook when comparing them to piercing weapons is that spears can kick. Drastically more effective when dealing with turtlers than anything piercing weapons (outside of Velka's Rapier maybe) have to offer.

    In addition, the Demon's Spear and DSS have excellent chip damage potential considering their range and damage type.

    Again, this is only my point of view based on the ability to roll cancel bleed effects. If you couldn't, katanas would have an enormous advantage.


    The dead angles they have are slow and deal little poise damage, leaving them wide open for backstabs.

    The Partizan's DA is just as slow as most other DAs, and one could argue almost all DAs leave you open to backstabs. However, the poise damage is trivial, I'll agree with that.

    Their backstab damage is trivial.

    All backstab damage is trivial if you're only talking about 1 successful backstab per encounter.

    If a piercing weapon is backstabbing for 750, and a spear or katana is backstabbing for 501, and your opponent has 1501 health, they all require 3 successful backstabs in order to kill. While the piercing weapons do have an advantage, that advantage is determined by chip damage and/or successful regular attacks.


    And at their most comfortable range, they have no answer to blocking.

    Again, I don’t understand where you're coming from.

    A patient Spear user can still stalemate shield users so hard that they abandon safer play and get reckless against the Spear. The true danger to Spears are opponents who can predict a poke. The shieldpoke has a much slower recovery than most Spear attacks and if used predictably can be easily roll BS'd.

    I think you meant piercing weapons, and again, the recovery time is not enough to be considered a disadvantage. However, that’s only if the spear user is aware of the disadvantage, and compensates by exercising more caution.

    The two-handed light attack can be punished by good chase attacks, which will trade favorably with the spear and force it to retreat. For these reasons, a good Spear user must be patient and make sure not to fall into a pattern with their pokes.

    Anyone who uses a spear should take the above underlined comment and burn it into their brain, tattoo it on your hand, etc.

    Wow I'm hungry and spent too much time writing this. Will be back later to do some more.

    I look forward to it. Nicely laid out Saint. +1 Bow

    So in end, thanks for the read Saint, but outside of tourney arenas, my point of view hasn't changed and has actually been reinforced.

    I look forward to your rebuttal though, if its as good as this, I might actually change my mind.....maybe.

    +1 Because if you disagree with someone there is no reason to be a jerk about it and call people names (not talking to you Saint). I enjoyed it, not quite as much as that "buildcrafting thread" though. Bow

    PS-Statements like you're wrong and etc will not offend me. People shouldn't expect people to put "imo" after everything the say...just sayin.

    Thanks again Saint. VERY well written.
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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Jansports on Sun May 12, 2013 3:19 pm

    While I do not want this to degenerate into people trying (in vain) to convince one another their opinion is right. I do think there is room for discussion.

    Notably two points Saturday made. (or didn't as it were) First is that Trusting swords deal very little poise damage in addition to their low damage from non critical attacks. For this reason I think their chasing potential is a little overstated, as with low damage and almost no chance of poisebreaking how are you going to Bully anyone into not attacking? (I genuinely ask this because it makes no sense to me, maybe rapiers bully everyone into not attacking and I'm simply uninformed)

    And of the three addressed weapon types, Spears will either have the potential to trade 2hr1s well with running attacks from Leo bonus. OR they'll have the best answer to a shield in the form of chip (for the non physical spears)

    This is one of the reasons I personally listed specific weapons. Because Partizan =/= DSS =/= MLBH. Though I do think Katanas can get away with it because everything anyone uses besides the Uchi 1hr2 is identical
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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Sun May 12, 2013 4:17 pm

    Jansports wrote:with low damage and almost no chance of poisebreaking how are you going to Bully anyone into not attacking?
    Shieldpoking a lot. Shieldpoke will win a trade with any attack so long as you don't let yourself get guard broken or hit by massive chip damage. If somebody isn't respecting shieldpoke and keeps going for attacks, then just keep shieldpoking. Eventually they'll either get the message or run out of hitpoints.

    Jansports wrote:And of the three addressed weapon types, Spears will either have the potential to trade 2hr1s well with running attacks from Leo bonus. OR they'll have the best answer to a shield in the form of chip (for the non physical spears)
    Whether 2H R1 wins a trade or not is dependent on match-up, timing/spacing, poise of each players, etc. And not all spear users will use a Leo Ring, so it's dependent on that, too. As for chip damage, that is a really weak way of getting past shields. It does mean the shield user can't just hang out all day, but shields still give people chances to get in on the spear user without taking much damage.

    That being said, Spears' weaknesses are not crippling. They are placed as highly as they are because you can play around those weaknesses and mitigate them a lot. This can also be said for katanas/thrusting swords.

    As for the specific weapons thing, most of the strongest weapons within each given class have similar playstyles and are close in power. And making a list of a couple dozen items is a lot easier than making a list of 100 or however many items.


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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Jansports on Sun May 12, 2013 4:27 pm

    Saturday-Saint wrote:then just keep shieldpoking. Eventually they'll either get the message or run out of hitpoints.

    This is getting a little theory fight, but I've always seen agressive use of shieldpokes as just an invite to the poisestab ball.

    And I think a good portion of what makes weapons stand out is how they're different from other similar weapons. The BSS's famous R2s, the MLGS specials, the oversized claymore poke ect.
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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon May 13, 2013 4:11 am

    Theoryfight is okay. What theory boils down to in a practical fight, though, is 'how easy is it?' I have always found slowly shieldpoking people to death whenever I think they're going to attack me and occasionally strafing around to catch or discourage BS's to be a very safe and easy strategy. Similarly I have always found getting past somebody good at using shieldpoke to be an uphill battle.

    So assuming players of equal skill, IMO shieldpoke is just this really oppressive tool that can shut down a lot of your options in almost any match-up. Yes it can always get poisestabbed or parried or whatever, but I find doing that against a good player to be difficult enough that shieldpoke still pays off really well.

    Also updated explanations with HomoseCurved/Straight Swords.


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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Jansports on Mon May 13, 2013 4:31 am

    I think the whole shieldpoke vs. poisestab/parry vs. attacks vs.strafe Scenario boils down to which person (poker or opponent) makes better decisions. Which I believe makes shieldpokes a great tool. As I find it is more likely the user has more experience (and thus better decision making tools)

    I also couldn't possibly like your straight sword explanation more. They aren't really outstanding in any specific situation, but they are generally good in every situation.
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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Tolvo on Mon May 13, 2013 4:42 am

    It is a classic jack of all trades master of none idea, when in situations where another item is at the disadvantage they'll generally do well, so if you can always bring about that situation you can have an advantage in that you don't have a disadvantage.
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    Re: Tier 1 imports.(what is tier 1 again?)

    Post by Saturday-Saint on Mon May 13, 2013 5:02 am

    Looking back at that list I realize that at some point I stopped talking about why I thought a weapon was good or bad and started just summarizing their strengths and weaknesses.

    Which is probably fine because it outlines how good they are nicely anyways.


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