Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

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    Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu May 09, 2013 5:29 pm

    We all know that Dark Magic is in fact pure magic damage, but could it be a different type of magic?
    To put it more simply, imagine your Physical defenses. You have Thrust, Stab, Slash to defend against.
    Now imagine that with magic, one defense for pure magic and one defense for Dark Magic.

    I'm bringing this up because we all know that Dark Bead outdamages CSS when all the Beads connect, but I recently noticed that against certain enemies with higher Magical Defense, the CSS would actually do more damage than Dark Bead, sometimes an overwhelming amount more (in one of my cases I was hitting around 220 with Dark Bead and my CSS would do around 350, a huge increase in damage).

    So I began to wonder just how that worked, basic math tells us that decreased damage on a spell would just mean that another STRONGER spell would also have decreased damage, but would still do more damage than the first spell. Yet in this case, the weaker spell was outdamaging the latter.

    Then another idea came to me. Is magic defense percent based? Think about it. If you go to the DLC you'll find that although magic damage has very little effect on the bosses, pure magic will still do a considerate amount of damage, yet Dark Magic does practically nothing to the very same boss.

    So now I'm curious as to whether Dark Magic is affected by a different defense rather than magic. It may in fact be doing magic damage but said magic damage is reduced by a completely different defense, such as physical (just to give an example). In that case, higher defense in X area would make you receive less damage from Dark Magic, although it still does magic damage.

    But then there's the case of the Magic Barriers. If Dark Magic is indeed affected by some other type of defense, than the Magic Barriers should have no effect on it as they only protect from magic.

    I don't really know where to go from here, so I was going to test this but I don't have the time to do so. Just think about this, can anyone really tell me that Dark Magic is not affected by some other type of defense? Maybe a hidden modifier?

    Again, just an idea. I may just be paranoid.


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Thu May 09, 2013 5:55 pm

    Who are these "certain" enemies? Maybe you can find a trend in who it works like this for.

    My guess is the certain mobs have been infected/created with dark magic and so get a hidden added bonus to their magic defence, if the magic is dark.

    But I still want your list of "certain" enemies.


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu May 09, 2013 6:00 pm

    Any enemy with high magic defense, although Seath might be an exception.


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by foppehenk on Thu May 09, 2013 6:27 pm

    doesnt dark magic have a physical property?
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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu May 09, 2013 6:34 pm

    No, it's pure magic. The physical property everyone thought it had due to the "weighty" part of the descriptions meant it did more poise damage, not physical damage. Go use Dark Orb, chances are if you get a hit you're going to stagger your opponent. Black Flame does around 60 poise, Dark Bead can pretty much stun anyone under 70 poise with the right conditions, and Pursuers can obviously stun even against high poise players.


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by foppehenk on Thu May 09, 2013 7:02 pm

    its what i assumed from dark magic doing less damage on my havels shield than crystal magic
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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Serious_Much on Thu May 09, 2013 7:15 pm

    Lorewise, it's different in my opinion.

    In-game, jack **** difference beyond poise affect.


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by The_Red_Drifter on Thu May 09, 2013 8:44 pm

    It might be because the beads register as several projectiles with a much lower AR than a CSS. Having high AR is usually the big difference maker in defenses, as low AR gets punished a lot more by high defenses than a high AR.
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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu May 09, 2013 8:46 pm

    That might be it, but it doesn't explain the spell as a whole because if each individual bead is affected by magic defense instead of the whole spell than the Bellowing Ring and the Dusk Crown would give +20% damage to each bead, not the spell's total damage.
    In other words, Dark Bead would be 140% stronger instead of 20% if that was true.


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by The_Red_Drifter on Thu May 09, 2013 9:18 pm

    I did some testing in response to your post using HCSM and GHSA as a base of two different "normal" magic. I used the clams in Ash Lake as a test since HCSM doesn't register hits beyond what killed PVE creatures, and the clams don't have a major magic defense. I have 44 Int, using Logan's Cat, on NG.
    Without Crown and Ring
    HCSM: 300
    GHSA: 306

    With Crown and Ring
    HCSM: 765
    GHSA: 539

    It seems boosting with Crown and Ring does major changes to Multi Hit Sorceries, otherwise GHSA would of done more damage with the boosts.
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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu May 09, 2013 9:20 pm

    Just to be clear, I had no sorcery boosts when I noticed this, I was also using the Ivory Catalyst so I only have 180 MagAdj.


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Rynn on Thu May 09, 2013 9:35 pm

    Remember, 2 hits from a weapon with 300 AR is often stronger than one hit with 500 AR.

    But if the mob has high physical defense, 500 Ar will do more damage than even 3 hits with 300 AR.

    The same concept applies here. High magic defense punishes the dark bead: which is 7 smaller hits, far more, than CSS, which is 1 big hit.
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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by The_Red_Drifter on Thu May 09, 2013 9:38 pm

    Try using Dark Orb and a comparable Soul Arrow (try testing on basic Hollows). And then try it against one of these enemies that are giving you these numbers with Dark Bead/CSS.
    I haven't really experimented much with the Dark Magics, I'm just giving numbers on how multi hit sorceries are working on my end. This character didn't go through the new content yet, and the only thing I could test would be Pursuers at the moment (was randomly given a Soul of Manus). I'll try messing with Pursuers on clams to see any difference.

    EDIT

    Using Oolacile Ivory, as clams die in one hit to Pursuers with boosted Logan's Cat.

    Pursuers
    without: 304
    with: 695

    CSS
    without 400
    with 653

    Sorcery boosts still making a huge difference with multi hits, not noticing any major differences between this and the HCSM testing I was doing earlier. You will really need to test this out with the Dark Orb Soul Arrow combo I mentioned earlier, as this only adds to the multi hit boost > single hit boost.


    Last edited by The_Red_Drifter on Thu May 09, 2013 10:10 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : So I won't double post)
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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by lordgodofhell on Fri May 10, 2013 3:43 am

    Interesting view point. I don't mean to detract from the main discussion but dark magics damage isn't 100% magic. It is in fact split between magic and physical. In addition to breaking high poise as you already mentioned.

    Someone will dig up all of the research threads for me I am sure winking

    Edit**

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t15497-dark-magic-test#304116

    I forgot it was I who did the testing lol!


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Dibsville on Fri May 10, 2013 9:04 am

    Ooh, that's good to know, but it still doesn't explain everything as most high magic defense enemies are most susceptible to Physical damage (LOOKING AT YOU ARTORIAS), yet they take more damage from the pure magic attacks. Although it's good to know they do physical damage as we can also know that maybe the damage is more affected by physical defense, it's still plausible that there is in fact a second hidden magic modifier that no one knows about (as far as we know).


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    Re: Dark Magic, a different kind of magic?

    Post by Rynn on Fri May 10, 2013 9:25 am

    It's not different.
    Soulmass is reduced in the exact same manner. It's just that high defenses more harshly punish multiple blows, rather than single blows.

    Try Dark Orb and it's respective soul arrow equivalent, you'll see.

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