Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Share
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by Shkar on Wed May 08, 2013 3:54 pm

    A while back, I talked about the nature of the lord souls. Three golden souls, like roaring flames, great fonts of power; light, heat, and death. A single black soul, the embodiment of dark.

    But there are lesser beings who have similar souls, fragments of the greater souls embedded within. Gwyndolin, Ornstein, and Smough, who received their golden souls from the Lord of Sunlight. Quelaag, who inherited her spark from her mother. Priscilla and the Moonlight Butterfly, who were granted life from Seath the Scaleless. And Sif, who was touched by his companion Artorias, also gifted by Gwyn. And of course, humanity, inheritors of slivers of the Dark Soul.

    But there is another; the Iron Golem also has a golden soul, but that is not what makes it noteworthy; after all, one of the Children of Sunlight likely empowered it to test the undead. No, what makes it intriguing is not it's color, but it's history: "Soul serving as the core of the Iron Golem, guardian of Sen's Fortress, and slayer of countless heroes seeking Anor Londo. Originally a bone of an everlasting dragon."

    Did your jaw just drop? It shouldn't have: bones have secretly been hugely important to the story the entire time. Nito, a skeletal being himself, has dozens of skeletal minions; they exist throughout his entire domain. And the Homeward Bone, an overlooked item, throws it's importance in our face, though it goes unnoticed. "Bone fragment reduced to white ash. Return to last bonfire used for resting. Bonfires are fueled by bones of the Undead."

    Clearly, bones are linked to souls in some macabre fashion. After all, the bones fuel the bonfires, which we know can be kindled by souls. And Nito's skeletons have souls, despite being mere puppets. And the Dragon Bone Fist shows us how the soul can be used: "The Gods fused the power of the soul with the great bones of the dragons, forming an appropriate core for the giant golem."

    But, at long last, this epiphany can be the catalyst to answer two very important questions: Where did the first souls come from, and why did the gods kill the dragons?

    "If the soul is the source of all life, then what distinguishes the humanity we hold within ourselves?" Souls are life; without a soul, one is truly, completely dead. That is why Nito can manipulate the corpses of the dead with his power; they have no soul, no "life" within them to get in the way. Clearly, no life could exist before the first soul.

    And yet, dragons were the first things alive. It would make sense that the dragons didn't exist before the flame, which as the first soul, created life. The intro as much as tells it straight to us. And the dragons have an incredibly link to the flame; one need look no fire than their smoldering breath to tell that.

    But it isn't their breath that interests us; it is their souls, and even more so, their bones. The first non-dragons must have faced a terrible, lonely existence; all alone, surrounded by beings far stronger than they. Consigned to the darkness of the depths of the earth, with no one beside them.

    Until the first dragon fell, and it's bones were released back into the world; souls released from it's corpse. So when you wish to expand, to grow your people, and the only way to do so is with souls, what would you do?

    You would take them; even if you have to rip them out of a dragon to do so.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    Pathfinder

    Posts : 2
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-05-08
    Location : America

    Re: Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by Pathfinder on Wed May 08, 2013 4:24 pm

    I have finally made an account to say that you sir/madame have blown my mind. I couldn't figure out the lords motivation, but this makes so much sense! Proper Bow I bow to your greatness
    avatar
    A Fierce Plankton
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 56
    Reputation : 5
    Join date : 2013-04-26
    Age : 20
    Location : Floating on the Brazilian seas

    Re: Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by A Fierce Plankton on Wed May 08, 2013 4:29 pm

    I don't think the ancient dragons had souls. Yes, the souls is the source of all life, but the dragons of the Age of Ancients weren't alive. Description of the Dragon Eye item: An art of the transcendent apostles who pray to the ancient dragons.
    To be alive is to be vulnerable, and the fiery Gods are no exception.
    The apostles seek another plane of existence, which transcends life."
    It is heavily implied also by Logan's dialogue when he is at the Duke's Archives that the true, ancient dragons were truly immortal (before Seath's betrayal) because they weren't alive to begin with, having transcended life and death, living in another plane of existence. So I think they would be better considered as being forces of nature than simply animals.
    Also the everlasting dragons did exist before the flame "In the Age of Ancients, the world was unformed, shrouded by fog. A land of grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons. But THEN there was Fire. And with Fire came disparity.


    _________________
    Currently thinking really hard about a signature.Come back later.
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by Shkar on Wed May 08, 2013 4:59 pm

    A Fierce Plankton wrote:I don't think the ancient dragons had souls. Yes, the souls is the source of all life, but the dragons of the Age of Ancients weren't alive. Description of the Dragon Eye item: An art of the transcendent apostles who pray to the ancient dragons.
    To be alive is to be vulnerable, and the fiery Gods are no exception.
    The apostles seek another plane of existence, which transcends life."
    It is heavily implied also by Logan's dialogue when he is at the Duke's Archives that the true, ancient dragons were truly immortal (before Seath's betrayal) because they weren't alive to begin with, having transcended life and death, living in another plane of existence. So I think they would be better considered as being forces of nature than simply animals.
    Also the everlasting dragons did exist before the flame "In the Age of Ancients, the world was unformed, shrouded by fog. A land of grey crags, archtrees, and everlasting dragons. But THEN there was Fire. And with Fire came disparity.

    "Then" is used more often than just referring to a progression of time. "There were good people, but then again, there were bad people too." As for being alive, the dragons can die. What on earth would you even call something that can die but isn't alive? Their "transcending life" doesn't mean that they aren't alive; the fact that they can die, and that normal humans can turn into them through magical rituals basically proves that. "Transcending Life" means that they are in a higher, "better" state.

    I would certainly think that having a soul that doesn't age by having it take the form of bone rather than some pesky wisp would be a "higher state;" it certainly makes you tougher to kill.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    A Fierce Plankton
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 56
    Reputation : 5
    Join date : 2013-04-26
    Age : 20
    Location : Floating on the Brazilian seas

    Re: Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by A Fierce Plankton on Wed May 08, 2013 5:36 pm

    Well, the description says that to be alive is to vulnerable, and the apostles seek to transcend this vulnerability, so I asume it's talking about life itself.As for this transcendence meaning only a higher state, why the gods are excluded from it? It implies that all the gods are in a state closer to humans than to dragons. Also, this is part of the dragon head/torso stone description, which is clearer than the dragon eye's:The dragon apostles seek ascendence of life itself, attainable by transformation into an ancient dragon.
    This rite is only one step, but it cannot be reversed until death."
    See? Even while in dragon form you still haven't obtained true ascendence, explaining why your character still dies. "Ascendence of life itself". I think it's pretty clear it's not talknig merely in a change of power.
    Also I always assumed the gods and their allies could only effectively kill the dragons after Seath's betrayal.
    "What would you call something that can die but isn't alive?"
    An undead maybe? Logan mentions that Seath is a true undead, different from the darksign bearers. And Seath does not even has the Scales of Immortality.

    I was just forgetting, you can't kill the stone dragon. Even with hacks. The serpents can be killed with the editor but I don't think the he can be. That is not real lore proof, but I find that interesting.


    _________________
    Currently thinking really hard about a signature.Come back later.
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by Shkar on Wed May 08, 2013 5:46 pm

    A Fierce Plankton wrote:Well, the description says that to be alive is to vulnerable, and the apostles seek to transcend this vulnerability, so I asume it's talking about life itself.As for this transcendence meaning only a higher state, why the gods are excluded from it? It implies that all the gods are in a state closer to humans than to dragons. Also, this is part of the dragon head/torso stone description, which is clearer than the dragon eye's:The dragon apostles seek ascendence of life itself, attainable by transformation into an ancient dragon.
    This rite is only one step, but it cannot be reversed until death."
    See? Even while in dragon form you still haven't obtained true ascendence, explaining why your character still dies. "Ascendence of life itself". I think it's pretty clear it's not talknig merely in a change of power.
    Also I always assumed the gods and their allies could only effectively kill the dragons after Seath's betrayal.
    "What would you call something that can die but isn't alive?"
    An undead maybe? Logan mentions that Seath is a true undead, different from the darksign bearers. And Seath does not even has the Scales of Immortality.

    Not an increase in power; a higher state. Rather than simply having a soul, they basically ARE the soul. Bones last longer than every other body part after death. In a manner of speaking, they "are" your body; everything else is just accessories. So if your bones are your soul, it's like "being" life. You will note that the dragon body/head seems to have some bone-like aspects to it, almost like bone plates.

    We know that the scales are inseparable from a dragon. There may not be any real scientific connection between scales and bone, but scales are essentially an exo-skeleton. It may very well be possible that a similar thought process may link the bones and scales.

    Or, then again, the scales may have nothing to do with "immortality." Logan's word is all we have to support that and, while you would think he would know, who would have told him? Seath? Do you really see Seath admitting that since he doesn't have scales, he lacks the immortality of his kin?

    I can't. Besides, he lived how long since the war, without his scales? The scales certainly don't grant absolute immortality; after all, the lords killed them.

    As for undead being able to die but not being alive, that's actually the opposite of what they are. Their heart beats, their lungs breathe in air, and they can think and act. They are alive; just not completely. What they aren't is dead; when they approach death, at the very last moment, the dark soul yanks them (or at least, the protagonist) back to a bonfire. They are not quite alive, but they aren't capable of death.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    Onionhead

    Posts : 1
    Reputation : 0
    Join date : 2013-05-05
    Age : 19
    Location : Brazil

    Re: Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by Onionhead on Wed May 08, 2013 8:20 pm

    Great speculation! Keep up the good job big grin


    _________________
    :red-stone: Wave
    avatar
    raecor14
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1080
    Reputation : 37
    Join date : 2012-06-21
    Age : 21
    Location : Australia

    Re: Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by raecor14 on Wed May 08, 2013 9:14 pm

    you good sir are the best discoveror of our age, i award you this valuable piece of amar


    _________________
    #Edon'tbanme

    Sponsored content

    Re: Bones and Souls: an analysis

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Sat Oct 21, 2017 2:43 pm