Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

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    strangejoy
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    Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by strangejoy on Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:10 pm

    All,

    Please help me compile empirical data on invasion parameters and souls gained in invasions. The questions I'm trying to answer are: (1) How many souls do you gain when you win a pvp match? (2) What are the precise invasion parameters for each method of invasion (cracked red, red orb, red soapstone, blue orb, darkmoon ring, and forest covenent ring)?

    We all have opinions on this, but anecdotal stories are all over the place. Some people insist souls gained are a function of SL and whether you are a host or a phantom, while others insist that it must be related to souls held. I always thought it was the former, but I confess that I have my doubts. Regarding invasion parameters, the conventional wisdom seems to be that DWs (cracked and orbs) can invade up to 10% below their level or any amount above their level; DMs using a blue orb can invade up to 10% above their level or any amount below their level; forest invaders either have no cap or have a DW-style cap (10% below or any amount above); and DMs using a ring either have the blue orb parameters of the forest invader parameters.

    I'm looking for hard data to support of refute the above theories. Here are some things that would help: (1) Have you ever invaded a host and received 0 souls upon victory? If so, which method of invasion? (2) Have you ever tested invasion parameters or souls gained with someone you know and trust (I want to stay away from your experiences asking random people about their SL, because they may not be honest about this)? If so, what were the results? (3) Have you every invaded and received more than 1.2 million souls upon victory? (4) Have you ever been invaded in the forest or dark anor londo at very low level (SL1-10)? If so, do recall how many souls you won if you defeated the invader? (5) Have you successfuly invaded with the red orb, cracked red, forest ring, or darkmoon ring with a charcter higher than SL300? How frequently? Which method?

    Any other data are welcome, as are suggestions for testing. Your random opinions are also fine, but I'm on a quest for hard data here. :cyclops:
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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by aceluby on Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:27 pm

    "Have you every invaded and received more than 1.2 million souls upon victory? "

    Yes, in Anor Londo


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by strangejoy on Fri Jan 20, 2012 4:27 pm

    aceluby wrote:"Have you every invaded and received more than 1.2 million souls upon victory? "

    Yes, in Anor Londo

    Dark Anor or just an ordinary DM or DW invasion?
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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by aceluby on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:03 pm

    Can't remember...

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t195-what-to-do-with-souls-once-you-stop-lvling

    1.5 mil received after killing a DW


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by TRANCEPTICON on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:31 pm

    In Anor Londo with my 15 I was met several times by a Darkmoon Blade who was claiming to be 65. I don't remember the soul count though for defeating I'm sorry, however I do remember it being relatively small (not as in proportion to my level, but as in maybe less than 10,000. I've also been invaded there with my level 4, but no one responded with a level after messaging.

    With my level 20 I'm only greeted in the kiln by Darkmoon Blade members, mainly Japanese players that do not communicate in English. I do not recall being invaded by red phantoms in kiln with a character lower than 20.

    Cheers.


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by strangejoy on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:33 pm

    TRANCEPTICON wrote:In Anor Londo with my 15 I was met several times by a Darkmoon Blade who was claiming to be 65. I don't remember the soul count though for defeating I'm sorry, however I do remember it being relatively small (not as in proportion to my level, but as in maybe less than 10,000. I've also been invaded there with my level 4, but no one responded with a level after messaging.

    With my level 20 I'm only greeted in the kiln by Darkmoon Blade members, mainly Japanese players that do not communicate in English. I do not recall being invaded by red phantoms in kiln with a character lower than 20.

    Cheers.

    Thanks, that would seem to support the conventional wisdom on DM invasions versus DW invasions. DMs are shady bastids with their apparent lack of a cap. lol
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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by strangejoy on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:34 pm

    aceluby wrote:Can't remember...

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t195-what-to-do-with-souls-once-you-stop-lvling

    1.5 mil received after killing a DW

    1.5 after killing a DW would seem to cast more doubt on the SL-based calculator.
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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by nsane32 on Fri Jan 20, 2012 6:37 pm

    are you on XBL my GT is nsane32 DMB been invading in Kilin alot


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by BLA1NE on Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:47 am

    strangejoy wrote:(1) Have you ever invaded a host and received 0 souls upon victory? If so, which method of invasion?
    (2) Have you ever tested invasion parameters or souls gained with someone you know and trust?
    (3) Have you every invaded and received more than 1.2 million souls upon victory?
    (4) Have you ever been invaded in the forest or dark anor londo at very low level (SL1-10)? If so, do recall how many souls you won if you defeated the invader?
    (5) Have you successfuly invaded with the red orb, cracked red, forest ring, or darkmoon ring with a charcter higher than SL300? How frequently? Which method?

    1. Nope
    2. No...
    3. Yes! A few times, and with different SL characters. I didn't ask what SL the hosts were though.
    4. Not to my recollection...
    5. Haven't tried. sad

    My experience is extensive, but most of it is as a Darkwraith. At first (like... back in October, at first!), when I noticed obvious and huge imbalances, I would ask them for their SL. I was invading at SL30 in Sen's, btw. And I'd get ever increasing answers. When someone answered 710, and I believed him (because he survived 3 backstabs from my Lightning knife +5), I stopped asking! The game's been patched, but even after the patch, when I invade at SL30, I'll get people doing ninja flips in full Smough's casting both WoGs and CSSs--clearly well above 30! I think it'd be safe to assume there's still no upper cap for DWs, but I can't provide you and hard numbers to back that so I won't be offended if you want more proof than my word.

    Now, the number of souls gained is a trickier question. In my experience in the Kiln, from both invading and being invaded back to back on the same character, you get a lot more souls from killing an invader than you do from killing a host.

    Also, I think the number of souls gained depends on the level of your opponent rather than how much they had on them. I say this because whenever I'm fighting an opponent who's clearly higher level than me, I get a lot more souls than if my opponent was low level too. Also, again with my SL30, I was playing scarecrow to a host once and intimidating him when, like an idiot, I got myself killed by the guillotines! So I messaged him because it was funny, and asked how much he'd gotten for my blunder, and he said 3500 souls... I was carrying over 4 mil at the time.

    Like I said, not much hard info and not verifiable, but I hope it helps. If I can help you do some testing, let me know!
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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by DeCeleRator93 on Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:06 am

    About the 10% parameter thing, I think its true most of the time but earlier I got invaded by someone who claimed to be lvl 35. Im sl 125 though and thats definitely not 10%


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by BLA1NE on Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:16 am

    ^Yeah, that's the "no upper cap" thing! Basically you can be invaded by any Darkwraith of lower level than you, no matter your level or theirs.


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by DeCeleRator93 on Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:28 am

    BLA1NE wrote:^Yeah, that's the "no upper cap" thing! Basically you can be invaded by any Darkwraith of lower level than you, no matter your level or theirs.
    I felt kind of bad for the guy just charging at me with his drake sword and Pyromancy..


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by ZeGlobox on Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:06 am

    my experience is this :

    - each time i PVP'd with a friend of mine (one i can trust telling me his real SL), the SL-based calculator was right

    - once got invaded and gained a lot of souls.. calculator said invader was SL 227.. i asked the guy what lvl he was, he replied 195... i answered "are you sure it's not 227 ? winking ", he then replied "how did you know?" winking

    - so far.. i've never met a SOLID and RELIABLE counter-proof to the SL based calculator. people DO lie about their SL a lot. believe me !

    one thing that is for sure (and i'm pretty sure every one will agree here) : you get 5 times more souls killing an invader than kiiling a host.. and that's what the SL based calculator also says.

    An hour ago, I invaded some SL 219 guy, and got 38000
    a few minutes later, same guy invaded me, killed him, and got 191700 !

    for me, the calculator has always been totally exact, and "the guy told me he was SL 100" is not a sufficient proof to me.

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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by ZeGlobox on Sat Jan 21, 2012 9:12 am

    i think there may be an exception regarding the darkmoon convenant though

    see.. each invader may get a reward : tinatine for the forrest conv, humanity for the darkwraith, dragon scales for the dragon conv..

    but for the darkmoon, i guess the extra bonus that is added to the souls is.. more souls (since you put a price on the guilty's head when you indict them)... makes sense, don't you think ?
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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by strangejoy on Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:25 am

    Thanks guys. The soul reward for pvp is a tough nut to crack, because we have reports of people getting around 10 mil souls, which isn't possible under any scenario using the standard SL level calculator. On the other hand, Blaine's experience suggests that carrying 4 mil souls doesn't result in a high soul reward for your opponent, which seems to contradict the souls-carried method.

    The one thing that I think we all agree upon is that killing hosts nets fewer souls than killing phantoms. This has almost always been my experience when soul levels of the host/phantom appear to be the same, and it looks like other people have had the same experiense. The SL-based calculator is also premised on a similar multiplier.

    Regarding the invasion parameters, I think it's now virtually indisputable that DWs have no upper invasion cap. That has been my experience and the experience of numerous other players.
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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by lextune on Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:11 pm

    (1) Have you ever invaded a host and received 0 souls upon victory? If so, which method of invasion?
    Yes. A few times. With my Red Eye Orb, (the only method of invasion I have ever used).

    (2) Have you ever tested invasion parameters or souls gained with someone you know and trust?
    No.

    (3) Have you every invaded and received more than 1.2 million souls upon victory?
    I have received hundreds of thousands of souls more than a few times from invasions in Anor and Dark Anor, but only once have I had over a million. I am curious how you arrived at this particular number though...?

    (4)
    Have you ever been invaded in the forest or dark anor londo at very low
    level (SL1-10)? If so, do recall how many souls you won if you defeated
    the invader? No but I have never hung around in eitherr place at such a low level.

    (5) Have you successfuly invaded with the red orb,
    cracked red, forest ring, or darkmoon ring with a charcter higher than
    SL300? How frequently? Which method?
    No. I have no toons that high.


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by Yarxov on Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:47 pm

    Can someone please post a link to this 'calculator' ?

    I always figured that the souls you got for killing an invader were just the invaders souls..


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by Godless Servant on Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:54 pm

    On my level 242 I met up with a boardie last night for a trade his SL was 120, I allowed him to BS me to death because I figured his gain would far outweigh mine and he only received just under 50k, I had about 13,500 on me at the time.

    We used the red soapstone.


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by ZeGlobox on Mon Jan 23, 2012 5:51 am

    exactly as the calculator says : ~49000 -> host was SL 242 ! winking

    BTW, Here's the calculator :
    https://sites.google.com/site/darksoulstats/dark-souls-calculators/mini-calcs

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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by aceluby on Mon Jan 23, 2012 12:47 pm

    ZeGlobox wrote:exactly as the calculator says : ~49000 -> host was SL 242 ! winking

    BTW, Here's the calculator :
    https://sites.google.com/site/darksoulstats/dark-souls-calculators/mini-calcs


    My guess is that it uses the greater of the two... but then again it doesn't explain the zero souls I've received (and others).

    I invaded yesterday and the guy messaged me that the invasion ticker didn't come up and when I went towards him I was completely invisible. I've fought an invisible invader once, but just thought he had the ring of fog + invisible body + invisible weapon on.


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    Re: Help requested: Empirical Data on Invasions

    Post by ZeGlobox on Mon Jan 23, 2012 1:10 pm

    aceluby wrote:
    ZeGlobox wrote:exactly as the calculator says : ~49000 -> host was SL 242 ! winking

    BTW, Here's the calculator :
    https://sites.google.com/site/darksoulstats/dark-souls-calculators/mini-calcs


    My guess is that it uses the greater of the two... but then again it doesn't explain the zero souls I've received (and others).


    I would personnally qualify this as a bug more than a rule...



    I invaded yesterday and the guy messaged me that the invasion ticker didn't come up and when I went towards him I was completely invisible. I've fought an invisible invader once, but just thought he had the ring of fog + invisible body + invisible weapon on.

    There are numerous bugs regarding invasions.. I've witnessed many recently.. (Being summoned by Alvina why not wearing the ring, being summoned as Red invader instead of blue, etc... )

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