Humans in Dark Souls

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    Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Thu May 02, 2013 7:05 pm

    So, it seems that humans where there when the First Flame started and the Lords found the Souls! I don't understand how is his possible, if in the intro it says clearly that in the Age of Ancients there were dragons and gray everything....There were already humans out there?
    ..then Gwyn, the Witch and Nito found these Souls...? It's a bit blurry...


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Thu May 02, 2013 9:40 pm

    It's been confirmed the Furtivie Pygmy is the Patriarch of the human race; he was the very first. Humans weren't around when the whole she-bang against the dragons occured until the Pygmy had more kids and his babies had babies and then we were everywhere. (Well, we weren't really told how long the war went on)

    Gwyn, the witch and Nito aren't humans, the same way Ornstein and Ciaran aren't humans either. They have humaniod forms (barring Nito) but they are a different race. The Lord Souls were found within the First Flame and these souls fundementally seperated Gwyn, the witch, the Pygmy and Nito from other 'normal' people. Nito- First Undead. Gwyn- First to whip out some Lightning. Witch- Created pyromancy. Pygmy- Found the first Humanity Soul.


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by alchemydesign on Fri May 03, 2013 2:03 am

    I disagree. In the beginning there were nothing but undead which were created by the Flame. Inside the First Flame there were souls, but not all souls are created equal. Some of them were Lord Souls, some were God souls, and the rest were human souls. The pygmy was not the progenitor of the human race, he was simply a primordial human who happened upon the Dark Soul which was split among the humans.

    The Furtive Pygmy was indeed easily forgotten because he was human, Gods, I imagine, do not generally take notice of humans unless they have need of them. That is, of course, until the Age of Fire begins to fade.
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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 6:01 am

    Then Gwyn and the crew are another race then....But there remains some questions, as where are the rest of them....they where a race with a small group, like Gwyn, his childs and the other lords and the knights? If they are another race, that means thet they were around in the time of dragons, then grew up, found the lord souls and killed the poor dragons.


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 7:26 am

    alchemydesign wrote:I disagree. In the beginning there were nothing but undead which were created by the Flame. Inside the First Flame there were souls, but not all souls are created equal. Some of them were Lord Souls, some were God souls, and the rest were human souls. The pygmy was not the progenitor of the human race, he was simply a primordial human who happened upon the Dark Soul which was split among the humans.

    The Furtive Pygmy was indeed easily forgotten because he was human, Gods, I imagine, do not generally take notice of humans unless they have need of them. That is, of course, until the Age of Fire begins to fade.

    ...so you're disagreeing with the director of Dark Souls when he said the Pygmy is the ancestor of human race?

    @First; As for Gwyn and the like; I'm not sure what they are. I mean, Ciarian (Lord's Blade) scoffs about humans if you attack her, but she's the same size as humans. And there are Giants like Gough and the Blacksmith and Smough. Knights on the other hand, stand head and shoulders over humans.

    Yeah, I don't know why they killed all the dragons. Were the dragons slave drivers? Were they just content to sit around in their archtrees?


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 7:48 am

    Yeah..I mean..if Gwyn's race was already there, that means they lived in peace....because before the discovery of Lord Souls they had no power over the dragons, and still they weren't killed by the dragons....the sitation changed when Gwyn and the rest found the Souls and begun wreaking havok on them dragons....Is like when you get power you begin to be an *******....


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 7:54 am

    FirstOfTheDead wrote:Yeah..I mean..if Gwyn's race was already there, that means they lived in peace....because before the discovery of Lord Souls they had no power over the dragons, and still they weren't killed by the dragons....the sitation changed when Gwyn and the rest found the Souls and begun wreaking havok on them dragons....Is like when you get power you begin to be an *******....

    Maybe they just got fed up with being cold all the time. Or as you say, they could have been opportunists and thought "my way is right, they are wrong, so they die so we rule" and thus the exterminating begins.


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 7:57 am

    Something like that! But then, that means 2 things...the nature itself wantend Natural Selection and dragons lost the battle, or Gwyn an the crew are evil at their roots...


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 8:17 am

    FirstOfTheDead wrote:Something like that! But then, that means 2 things...the nature itself wantend Natural Selection and dragons lost the battle, or Gwyn an the crew are evil at their roots...

    I wouldn't say natural selection- as quite a few dragons managed to escape the brawl (and apparently dragons are gonna have a big role in DS2 so there must be a lot still kicking)

    I think they just wanted power. It's what most people want, to be in control of their lives. They had an opportunity and they took it. Then they crash and burned rather epically a few centuries down the track lol


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 8:23 am

    Bad luck for Gwyn and the crew lol !!! But the Flame started to fade ok? This is the cause of people turning undead? And also in DS2, do you think we will be able to see a true Everlasting Dragon in person, because I'm tired of those drakes and "descendants of the true dragons...


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 8:26 am

    FirstOfTheDead wrote:Bad luck for Gwyn and the crew lol !!! But the Flame started to fade ok? This is the cause of people turning undead? And also in DS2, do you think we will be able to see a true Everlasting Dragon in person, because I'm tired of those drakes and "descendants of the true dragons...

    You meet Kalameet and Seath in Dark Souls; true Seath isn't a 'proper' Everlasting Dragon due to the fact he doesn't have scales but he still is one. Kalameet just attacks you though. I wouldn't mind dealing with intelligent speaking dragons then just angry "attack attack!" beasts in DS2


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 8:32 am

    Yeah, but I was referring at least at how they look....Seath..ok it is a handicapped Everlasting Dragon, but Kalameet is not at all like the dragons we see in the intro...I mean where are his scales of stone and furry thing on their back...you know what I mean...the head also is not the same at all...The Stone Dragon in Ash Lake resembles the dragons in the intro I believe....and I saw much people saying that they are different, but from all the dragons wee se in game that one is the closest looking I think.


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 8:35 am

    FirstOfTheDead wrote:Yeah, but I was referring at least at how they look....Seath..ok it is a handicapped Everlasting Dragon, but Kalameet is not at all like the dragons we see in the intro...I mean where are his scales of stone and furry thing on their back...you know what I mean...the head also is not the same at all...The Stone Dragon in Ash Lake resembles the dragons in the intro I believe....and I saw much people saying that they are different, but from all the dragons wee se in game that one is the closest looking I think.

    Well, it would be kinda lame and boring if they all looked the same :I Personally I loved how gorgeous Seath was and found Kalameet fascinating- he had many sharp, bird-like characteristics to him.

    I don't want to see 'clones' all over the place.


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 8:41 am

    Me neither....but it's one thing to see diferent dragons but with clear characteristics like the ones in the intro and in all the descriptions, and other thing to see 2 dragons that is said to come from the same family and nor they have similarities between them or the ones in the intro...It seems like Seath is one race of dragon, Kalameet other and the Everlasting's....God know's what they are.....


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 9:10 am

    FirstOfTheDead wrote:Me neither....but it's one thing to see diferent dragons but with clear characteristics like the ones in the intro and in all the descriptions, and other thing to see 2 dragons that is said to come from the same family and nor they have similarities between them or the ones in the intro...It seems like Seath is one race of dragon, Kalameet other and the Everlasting's....God know's what they are.....

    Seath was born a freak- it's one of the reasons why he goes bonkers.
    Kalameet was one of the "last" Everlastings, so they may have changed through the generations. We also don't know if they have subspecies or extremely different breeds (like with dogs, how you can go from husky to chihuahua)


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 10:08 am

    Yeah....That's why I'm wondering if we will be meeting a true Everlasting like the ones in the intro...nothing more nothing less...just that stone scaled big dragon! big grin


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 10:14 am

    FirstOfTheDead wrote:Yeah....That's why I'm wondering if we will be meeting a true Everlasting like the ones in the intro...nothing more nothing less...just that stone scaled big dragon! big grin

    It would be interesting; I would certainly love another Dragon Covenant to be in the sequel with more shapeshifting abilities and more info the dragons themselves.


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 10:34 am

    Yeah...The covenants should be more like Lore Portals ( where you can learn things about the world, the items, the characters and so on) or something....aaaand also I would love to see Nito back with more meaning in the story( I kinda feel that he is a special character with more misteryes involving him ), not being a straightforward boss that you have to kill and take his "big powa" that he doesn't show you when he was living, if you know what I mean...


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 10:41 am

    FirstOfTheDead wrote:Yeah...The covenants should be more like Lore Portals ( where you can learn things about the world, the items, the characters and so on) or something....aaaand also I would love to see Nito back with more meaning in the story( I kinda feel that he is a special character with more misteryes involving him ), not being a straightforward boss that you have to kill and take his "big powa" that he doesn't show you when he was living, if you know what I mean...

    Oh wow that's actually a really neat idea...Like when you rank up you learn more and more and you are able to be told more secrets about the race/Covenant you are sworn to, to help deepen your knowledge. That sounds really awesome- it would certainly encourage a lot more people to go from Covenant to Covenant to learn more about the lore- I know I certainly would love to know more about the Dragons and Chaos Servants (my main Covenants)

    And ditto on the Nito thing; I find him to be the most fascinating and stable of the Lords and really wished to learn more about him.


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 10:52 am

    It would be nice to implement this thing about the Covenants in DkS2, but I would like that when you enter the Covenant you begin learning things, but all secrets can be lerned after you do certain things to the Covenant, that take time and game progress, so I'm trying to say that I want to be limited to 1 or 2 Covenants per PT....That would make the player want NG+ and further so he can enter all the Covenants to learn the things! This would make the NG+ and further, not something to test ourselves against 3 times more powerfull monsters, but also to find the ultimate thing about this game!


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Fri May 03, 2013 11:04 am

    FirstOfTheDead wrote:It would be nice to implement this thing about the Covenants in DkS2, but I would like that when you enter the Covenant you begin learning things, but all secrets can be lerned after you do certain things to the Covenant, that take time and game progress, so I'm trying to say that I want to be limited to 1 or 2 Covenants per PT....That would make the player want NG+ and further so he can enter all the Covenants to learn the things! This would make the NG+ and further, not something to test ourselves against 3 times more powerfull monsters, but also to find the ultimate thing about this game!

    That would be interesting.

    Like in the Way of the Dragon you could learn more about Seath's traitorous actions after you kill him and speak to the Stone Dragon. Or you could even help the dragons by killing all four of the Knights- Ornstein, Artorias, Gough and Ciraran who are all dragon-killers and you could talk to Kalameet about it and learn more about the fall of the Everlasting Dragons and the knights. Or heck, even mention to the Stone Dragon you found out a way to gank Gwyn and give them the chance to take the world back.

    Oh wow, I would like that very much.


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 11:20 am

    Yeah! You got the ideea! This is what we want! big grin


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by alchemydesign on Fri May 03, 2013 3:55 pm

    ExplodingPenguin wrote:
    alchemydesign wrote:I disagree. In the beginning there were nothing but undead which were created by the Flame. Inside the First Flame there were souls, but not all souls are created equal. Some of them were Lord Souls, some were God souls, and the rest were human souls. The pygmy was not the progenitor of the human race, he was simply a primordial human who happened upon the Dark Soul which was split among the humans.

    The Furtive Pygmy was indeed easily forgotten because he was human, Gods, I imagine, do not generally take notice of humans unless they have need of them. That is, of course, until the Age of Fire begins to fade.

    ...so you're disagreeing with the director of Dark Souls when he said the Pygmy is the ancestor of human race?

    @First; As for Gwyn and the like; I'm not sure what they are. I mean, Ciarian (Lord's Blade) scoffs about humans if you attack her, but she's the same size as humans. And there are Giants like Gough and the Blacksmith and Smough. Knights on the other hand, stand head and shoulders over humans.

    Yeah, I don't know why they killed all the dragons. Were the dragons slave drivers? Were they just content to sit around in their archtrees?

    Did I ever say he wasn't? No, everybody and i mean EVERYBODY started as an undead, it shows you right at the start of the game if you bother to watch, and within the flame they found souls...some found Lord Souls, others did not, Gods and Humans started the same but when you become a God it's highly unlikely that you would lump yourself in with the powerless masses. And so you know ancestor is NOT the same as progenitor. All of the God's were undead at one time, making them ancestors as well, but it's the souls that set them apart.
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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by FirstOfTheDead on Fri May 03, 2013 4:10 pm

    Then they found Souls from time to time...ones founding normal souls, becoming normal humans, others at a later date found Lord Souls....because Allfather Lloyd was the uncle of Gwyn, that means humans where there when he found his soul, mening he started as a normal human or undead...the Lord Soul gave him tremenduous power and he gave some of this to his knights making them humanlike but taller and stronger and able to outlive normal people. Am I right in what I tend to believe?


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    Re: Humans in Dark Souls

    Post by alchemydesign on Fri May 03, 2013 4:22 pm

    You have to realize that ALL of this is all speculation, unless you're like family with Miyazaki and he tells you whats what. But if you follow the story as presented, when the Flame began to burn it rose the Undead, this is similar to the biblical Adam and Eve, so yes, I would assume that were indeed family units to be had, then they began to find the souls inside the flame...kinda like Moses and the Burning Bush I would imagine...they found the Lord Souls, it doesn't state who found what first, whether the Lord Souls were found first or whether human souls were found first, but I'm pretty confident when I tell you that the Pygmy didn't start the human race, but rather when he found the Dark Soul he was the first to have Humanity...which as we know from the item descriptions Humanity does NOT make a human.

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