Havel the Rock Unraveled

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    Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by prophetteonit on Thu May 02, 2013 10:58 am

    Let's talk Havel.

    I'd like to dissect his character in depth to see if we can flush anything out that may have been missed in the past. Should I err, please feel free to correct me, and your opinion is greatly appreciated (and desired!).

    A family lesson: Gwyn is the nephew of Allfather Lloyd, who is the head of the Way of the White. Havel is an apostle to Allfather Lloyd, and a bishop of the Way of the White; he was also an "old friend" of Gwyn's. It is also mentioned several times that Havel is a little salty about magic ("Havel the Rock, an old battlefield compatriot of Lord Gwyn, was the sworn enemy of Seath the Scaleless. He despised magic, and made certain to devise means of counteraction." -Great Magic Barrier). A fairly popular theory (and one I subscribe to) is that, when Gwyn made nice with Seath, Havel felt betrayed; no doubt he tried to warn Gwyn that Seath was treacherous (after all, any being willing to betray their own kin won't blink at betraying someone else's), but I doubt Gwyn gave it a second thought, rashly moving on to kindle the fire. It is at this point that I believe Havel took matters into his own hands. We see an occult club hidden in a mimic in the storeroom in Anor Londo with the rest of Havel's gear--for those of you playing the home game, occult weapons were considered "god-killers". It seems that Havel, his heart heavy with regret, set out to right the wrongs Gwyn had set--possibly starting with Gwyn himself (side-note: Havel may have formed an alliance with Velka, being as he was able to acquire such a taboo weapon that only she would have access to--just something to think about). Where Havel messed up was in taking his own strength for granted. He'd been invincible for so long, he refused to accept the obvious: that he was no match for a god. Armed with his club, he probably went to launch an attack on Gwyn, where he was foiled (and in the process, Hollowed). Here is where I encounter some confusion: If Havel fought during the age of the ancients alongside Gwyn, then he must have gone after Gwyn right after the war was over (which makes sense, given the timeline); however, if he was Hollowed immediately, then he was hollow for over a millenium, which lends itself to some questions. But, if he wasn't Hollowed immediately, what happened? Is he superhuman, capable of living hundreds of years (part of the "time is convoluted" theory, perhaps)? Just some patchiness in the lore.

    So Gwyn kindled the fire ~1000 years before the events of Dark Souls. Is it likely that Havel has just been chillin' in the Watchtower Basement for 1000 years? Not really. Consider the amount of wear and tear there would be on the building--if we're being realistic, it probably would have crumbled long ago, and he would be running around doing God knows what. Frankly, there aren't a whole lot of characters other than Gwyn who would have the capability to lock Havel up in the first place; there are, however, a few who were powerful enough AND had access at the appropriate time: Allfather Lloyd (and by extension, the church of the Way of the White), Frampt, the charred blacksmith in the Darkroot Garden, and Seath.

    I'm not going to rule out Allfather Lloyd entirely, but there's no evidence whatsoever that he had anything to do with Havel's Hollowing or locking away. The same goes for Frampt, with the added complication of how the hell exactly is Frampt--a serpent--going to lock up an out-of-control Havel the freaking Rock? I mean, good luck bro. That leaves the blacksmith and Seath, but I really don't think it would be feasible for a blacksmith to lock Havel up either (though it's likely they were acquainted; the divine ember is found near the charred body, suggesting Thorolund, and by proxy, the Way of the White). So we're left with Seath--an "old friend" in only the darkest sense, but the tone that the sarcasm would require is reinforced by the ending line, "For his own good, of course", making it plausible. Fortunately, we have more than simply process of elimination to go on:

    A) Having seen both burnt and cursed bodies in the world of Dark Souls, it's safe to say that the body of the blacksmith resembles the latter (reference the boss battle with Seath--when you go back to fight him the second time, a black shell of your body is in front of him--a result of his curse attack). Going off of that, I'd say that it's likely he was cursed by Seath; perhaps the blacksmith was attempting to aid Havel and Seath wanted to endmhim once and for all.
    B) The blacksmith's body is guarded by the Moonlight Butterfly; it's likely that the Moonlight Butterfly is just a buffed-up version of the crystal butterflies in the Crystal Caves (courtesy of Seath's experiments) being as they share roughly the same attacks and appearance (the exception being that the Moonlight Butterfly is green and more powerful). It would make sense, then, that after Seath went to the trouble to stop the blacksmith from reaching Havel, he would station a sentry to guard against further intrusion.
    C) In a similar vein as B), the Crystal Golems scattered around the outside of the Watchtower Basement are identical to the ones in the Crystal Cave (again, products of Seath's alone-time). Seath would have known the danger Havel posed, and wouldn't stop at simply locking him in a tower that would eventually erode and set him free. Thus, he posted sentries around the tower to dispatch of Havel when he (inevitably) would break free.

    Of course, none of this information is concrete, but it's a fairly safe bet, given the large amount of evidence.

    Additionally, just for controversy's sake, we have the theory that Havel isn't actually THE Havel, and it's just one of his men hanging out in the tower.

    Frankly, I don't agree with this theory at all, but let's look at it.

    The case against Havel in the tower hangs on a couple of common misconceptions:

    A) Should you choose to kill him, the stone-clad warrior drops Havel's Ring; the point has been made that Havel's men wore the ring, but not Havel himself (he was just too much of a badass!).
    B) The dragon tooth is a generic weapon, and isn't specific to Havel.
    C) Havel's set is in Anor Londo--far, far away from the Undead Burg where you encounter him.

    Now let's go back through and look at these.

    A) The ring description reads: "This ring was named after Havel the Rock, Lord Gwyn's old battlefield compatriot. Havel's men wore the ring to express faith in their leader and to carry a heavier load." Now, the way it's worded makes it seem like ONLY Havel's men wore the ring, but it doesn't say Havel DIDN'T wear the ring either; nor does it do anything to suggest he didn't. And even if we go along with this idea that Havel didn't wear the ring, remember that it's named after him and it represents the faith his warriors had in him. Even if he didn't WEAR it, it wouldn't be far-fetched in the slightest to assume he carries it as an token of sentimental value to establish a link to his men. Simply because an NPC drops something does not mean that they were using it.
    B) This is not true at all. Here's why: on Havel's Greatshield, the description says "Greatshield of the legendary Havel the Rock...A true divine heirloom on par with the Dragon Tooth." Notice that "Dragon Tooth" is capitalized, signifying a title (rather than "a dragon's tooth", the general object). In addition to that, the comparison between the greatshield and the Dragon Tooth is phrased in such a way that it ties them both to the "legendary Havel the Rock", implying that both are unique to him. The usage of the word heirloom reinforces this theory--if every warrior had one, it wouldn't be so special. Furthermore, the Dragon Tooth description says "Created from an everlasting dragon tooth. Legendary great hammer of Havel the Rock"; there's that "legendary" again. "Legendary great hammer OF HAVEL THE ROCK" implies that it belonged to Havel--and Havel only. Whenever somebody tries to contest this point, I counter with this: we know that Havel's men wore the exact same suit of armor that he did (the armor description says "[Helm/Armor/Gauntlets/Leggings] worn by Havel the Rock's warriors"). How would they be able to distinguish between themselves and their leader if he didn't have some sort of signature weapon or armor? Clearly, he doesn't have unique armor; therefore, he has a unique weapon to set him apart.
    C) This is true; however, I don't believe that's meant to mean anything. Say what you will--I think this is just one of those things that they did in the game as a metaphysical gesture. Look at it this way: if you killed Havel in the Undead Burg as an early character (which isn't that hard, especially if you have the Drake Sword) and got his armor, shield, and weapon, one of two things would happen: A) You would not be able to use any of it and would thus be motivated to grind in order to be able to use his gear, which is something the game developers discouraged, or B) Somehow, you would be able to use some or (unlikely) all of his equipment, and you would be incredibly OP--decidedly against Dark Souls' ethos. I don't believe there's a ton more to be said about that matter; what with the Dragon Tooth and the greatshield being specific to Havel alone, I can safely say that it is, without a doubt, Havel the Rock in the Watchtower Basement.

    In conclusion, it's clear to me that Havel was a man of moral fiber; his strength was not just physical. His heart guided him just as much as his strategies did, and in the end, he was Hollowed trying to do what he say as the right thing. Personally, I think Havel is one of the coolest characters in Dark Souls, and I'd love to hear from the rest of you!


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Hue on Thu May 02, 2013 11:50 am

    That's an interesting looking text wall you have there


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Nybbles on Thu May 02, 2013 12:09 pm

    the most interesting thing about Havel is that he is the only NPC that doesn't have a corpse we can loot. instead we find Havel's weapons and armor locked away in a chest that's hidden in Anor Londo's basement? this breaks the rules of how things seem to work in the Dark Souls mythos. why is Havel the exception to the rule? we could have just as easily come across Havel's corpse instead of those chests. so why doesn't Havel have a corpse?
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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Maplepop on Thu May 02, 2013 12:18 pm

    Nicely written Prophet...
    Havel's a badass for sure, but he ain't nothing on Artorias winking


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by prophetteonit on Thu May 02, 2013 12:36 pm

    Nybbles wrote:the most interesting thing about Havel is that he is the only NPC that doesn't have a corpse we can loot. instead we find Havel's weapons and armor locked away in a chest that's hidden in Anor Londo's basement? this breaks the rules of how things seem to work in the Dark Souls mythos. why is Havel the exception to the rule? we could have just as easily come across Havel's corpse instead of those chests. so why doesn't Havel have a corpse?

    Exactly! I mean, I hate to have to settle on the "Havel's armor would be hella OP in the beginning of the game" trip, but I can't seem to find anything else to go on.



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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Shindori on Thu May 02, 2013 1:09 pm

    Here's a few things That might conflict...
    1) The Dragon Tooth is a weaponthat distinguishes Havel from the rest, and so does his greatshield. Why does the warrior in the burg have them then?
    2) Havel's ring was named after havel and allowed warriors to carry a heavier load. This hints at it not being havel at all.

    My theory, if you will, is that either we get a lot of misleading info on havel's items and whatnot, or that the shield and weapon we find are not really havel's, but replicas, which would imply the one in the burg is the real havel. I honestly think it's not, and that havel, much like gwynevere, escaped.


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by WaffleGuy on Thu May 02, 2013 2:06 pm

    Shindori wrote:Here's a few things That might conflict...
    1) The Dragon Tooth is a weaponthat distinguishes Havel from the rest, and so does his greatshield. Why does the warrior in the burg have them then?
    2) Havel's ring was named after havel and allowed warriors to carry a heavier load. This hints at it not being havel at all.

    My theory, if you will, is that either we get a lot of misleading info on havel's items and whatnot, or that the shield and weapon we find are not really havel's, but replicas, which would imply the one in the burg is the real havel. I honestly think it's not, and that havel, much like gwynevere, escaped.

    I don't think the weapon and shield he carries are just replicas. He can use the spell on himself to give himself more poise silly


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Hue on Thu May 02, 2013 2:23 pm

    I think the ones in Anor Londo are the real ones


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by RANT on Thu May 02, 2013 2:31 pm

    the good thing about the dks universe is that unless there's something IN the game that says something is for sure then it is open for speculation and whatever you think it's true is in fact true, even miyazaki said it iirc. I actually think that he is in fact havel, so what if dropped havel's ring? it didn't mean he was wearing it, maybe he had one to give to anyone that he liked or whatever.


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by WaffleGuy on Thu May 02, 2013 3:24 pm

    The complex thing about Dark Souls is that time can be decieving. The phantoms you summon are basically warriors from different times, or even universes. We can see Tarkus' summoning sign in Sens' Fortress, but that doesn't mean he's still waiting there. He left it behind for the strongest of warriors to be aided. Knowing that every player can summon him, he would have to stay there forever, which is probably not the case.
    Also f.e., one minute Beatrice can help you fight the Four Kings, the next second her body lies at the Valley of Drakes.

    What I'm trying to say is, even if his equipment is at a different location, his current body could remain elsewhere. We'll probably never know if the NPC in the tower is the real Havel. Just some thought that came up to me. It might be completely irrelevant, but meh Shrug


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Nybbles on Thu May 02, 2013 4:56 pm

    that sorta ties into my comment earlier, why doesn't Havel have a corpse?

    time is convoluted in the Dark Souls Mythos, with heros centuries old phasing in and out. so it might be that it is Havel from a past era who we meet locked in the tower, even though he is already long dead (or whatever happened to him).

    since it's expected that we will kill him, you'd think they would have placed a corpse in that basement instead of those chests. that would follow the rules that all the other NPCs follow, we encounter them and they either help us as a phantom or we kill them as an invader or just to be prick, then we come across their corpse in a different location from where we met them. Shiva is a little different though, you can loot his corpse before you even meet him, but at least he still has a corpse, where as Havel does not.

    if it wasn't Havel that was locked in the tower, that would indicate that Havel is likely still alive and wandering around Lordran somewhere, or possibly he went back to Thoroland, or possibly we will meet the real Havel in DS2…that would be schweet.
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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Hue on Thu May 02, 2013 5:26 pm

    What i don't unerstand is why are Havel's Greatshield, and the Dragon Tooth, both supposedly unique items, encountered twice in the game.


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Nybbles on Thu May 02, 2013 5:35 pm

    Hachouma wrote:What i don't unerstand is why are Havel's Greatshield, and the Dragon Tooth, both supposedly unique items, encountered twice in the game.

    we see them being used by Havel when we encounter him in the watchtower, but we don't get them until we pick them up from the chests in Anor Londo. so technically there is only one set of his equipment in the game. unless it's not actually Havel in the watchtower, which would mean he is actually still alive somewhere, naked and weaponless.
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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by Zyrrashijn on Fri May 03, 2013 2:47 am

    On the "Why is there no corpse?"-issue, i have to say that all NPC-Corpses we encounter were from those who's phantoms we met (Leeroy, Kirk, Jeremiah, Beatrice, Lautrec). If you kill Lautrec in his non-phantom shape, no corpse appears at all. I know Lautrec is not a phantom when you invade his world via the black eye orb, but yet it's a different world. Why Havel's gear is in a chest in Anor Londo is something i can only speculate about, but the fact, that you can go there and grab it before you ever met the NPC that is locked in the tower, hints at no connection. Btw, did anyone ever go to AL without having met him before, is the gear really there then? Maybe it's sneaky Domnhall that hides the armor and weaponry in the hidden chamber?


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by prophetteonit on Fri May 03, 2013 1:17 pm

    Zyrrashijn wrote:On the "Why is there no corpse?"-issue, i have to say that all NPC-Corpses we encounter were from those who's phantoms we met (Leeroy, Kirk, Jeremiah, Beatrice, Lautrec). If you kill Lautrec in his non-phantom shape, no corpse appears at all. I know Lautrec is not a phantom when you invade his world via the black eye orb, but yet it's a different world. Why Havel's gear is in a chest in Anor Londo is something i can only speculate about, but the fact, that you can go there and grab it before you ever met the NPC that is locked in the tower, hints at no connection. Btw, did anyone ever go to AL without having met him before, is the gear really there then? Maybe it's sneaky Domnhall that hides the armor and weaponry in the hidden chamber?

    I was wondering that too. It seems likely that somewhere along the line, somebody went to Anor Londo before killing Havel, but nobody's made the connection from what I can see.

    As far as I know, there weren't two identical Dragon Tooths, nor were there two greatshields--since those were specific to Havel, the stuff in Anor Londo is unequivocally his...but then, the man in the tower MUST be him, since he holds the same equipment.

    Here's some wild speculation: we know he enchanted his shield, so it's possible he enchanted his armor and Dragon Tooth as well. What if it was enchanted so that it would warp back to Anor Londo upon his death so that it didn't fall into the wrong hands? And since he was just holding the ring (since he's Havel, he doesn't need it), it didn't warp like the rest of the stuff.

    Thoughts?


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by DE5PA1R on Sat May 04, 2013 10:55 am

    The tower has stood for over 1k years. Stone structures are very resilient. See Greece irl. Havel was locked away before Gwyn linked the flame, probably by Gwyn himself.

    Miyazaki has stated that the blacksmiths which hold the embers are just fancy chests and have no significance within the story.


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    Re: Havel the Rock Unraveled

    Post by prophetteonit on Sat May 04, 2013 4:35 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:The tower has stood for over 1k years. Stone structures are very resilient. See Greece irl. Havel was locked away before Gwyn linked the flame, probably by Gwyn himself.

    Miyazaki has stated that the blacksmiths which hold the embers are just fancy chests and have no significance within the story.

    See, I'd certainly rather believe that than speculate on who might have gone and killed him.

    I still think Seath had something to do with the whole thing though.


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