I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

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    I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:09 am

    I noticed a lot of people dislike Gwyndolin due to the fact he tricks the player with his illusion of Gwynevere, since the real Gwynevere left Anor Londo with her husband ages ago when all the Gods abandoned it.

    But...I think he has good reason to do that.

    I mean, all his life the guy has been told he was born wrong; First he's raised as a daughter because he looks feminine and likes the moon. Then he has the whole snake feet thing going on and I really doubt that helped.

    I mean, I was Harvesting in Anor Londo and there were no statues at all of him. Even in the massive Cathedral where you fight Ornstein and Smoug it only has Gwyn, the empty plinth where the First Born would be and Gwynevere. Kinda rude and insensitive if you ask me; it's like Gwyn was ashamed of his frail son and didn't want anyone else to really interact with him. The game even describes him as "repulsive" at one point. That's nearly as harsh as the treatment of Priscilla.

    Gwyndolin is also the only God to stay in Anor Londo to try and keep the place going; everyone else just leaves. Even Gwynevere buggers off with her husband and the First Born is AWOL. Everyone else is too selfish to stay and try and keep things in order due to their fear of the dark so they just run away; Gwyndolin on the other hand protects his fathers tomb and has his illusions keep the city safe.

    So it makes sense he would have the illusion of Gwynevere greet the player; she's the beautiful daughter of Gwyn, the Princess of Sunlight and basically the most kind, compassionate person ever and is attractive while Gwyndolin is the freakish son/daughter snake thing that no one talks about. So I figure he would guess the Undead would likewise be repulsed by him, hence him making the Gwynevere illusion.

    I feel so bad for the guy. He seems pretty damn happy when you come visit him if you are a Blade of the Darkmoon. It's probably lonely as hell in that Tomb. I only kill him on the my Darkwraith/Path of the Dragon playthroughs. Otherwise I leave him alone.

    What about you guys? Do you like/hate/kill Gwyndolin all the time?


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by raecor14 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:11 am

    that made me emotional man, nice.


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by Green__Eagle on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:22 am

    Hmmm... perhaps I should revise my outlook and put him out of his misery on every game...


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by raecor14 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:23 am

    Green__Eagle wrote:Hmmm... perhaps I should revise my outlook and put him out of his misery on every game...
    this comment is amazing


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:26 am

    Green__Eagle wrote:Hmmm... perhaps I should revise my outlook and put him out of his misery on every game...

    Well that's one to look at it I suppose. But unless they ask for it, it's not really mercy.

    That and he's happy if you give him ears.


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by Demon Slayer on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:30 am

    wow that sux...

    i never looked it like that my apologizes Gwyndolin Prostration


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:32 am

    Demon Slayer wrote:wow that sux...

    i never looked it like that my apologizes Gwyndolin

    I just really noticed the lack of statues of him today; they still have the place where the banished First Born would be, but it's like they totally forgot about him. Heck, I wouldn't have even known he was there if I hadn't wiki'd him to find out how to join the Blades.


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by Looking Glass Mind on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:50 am

    Excellent post on the beautifully conceived Gwyndolin lore. It's truly some of the saddest in the game.

    Did anyone ever hazard a guess as to what the snake legs are about? I've never quite been able to come up with a reason as to why he would have them. When I see snakes, I immediately think of the primordial serpents, although I don't truly believe they have any connection to Gwyndolin. One could argue that he is a true puppet of Frampt, but...eh. Seems too literal and weak for the thousand hidden iterations of meaning rife within Gwyndolin's story.

    I suppose some sort of dark magic then, implying that he created the appendages himself, borne out of some sort of self-imposed metamorphosis. Another mirror into his self loathing, perhaps? Taking on a personification of true abbhoration, like his father always saw him as?

    Or were they imposed upon him by other forces? Gwyn, perhaps? The First Born?

    Anyway, great analysis.


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by Gambs_the_Grey on Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:54 am

    Isn't there supposed to be a picture of Gwyndolin, in one of the silver knight rooms in AL ?
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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:27 am

    Gambs_the_Grey wrote:Isn't there supposed to be a picture of Gwyndolin, in one of the silver knight rooms in AL ?

    Not that I can remember; I'll go back tomorrow to Harvest some more and I'll check the rooms.


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by DaFarmerProject on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:32 am

    Which is why the player is deemed sinned if they kill him. He's a 'mockingbird.'


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:42 am

    He's an extremist, plain and simple. Abuse/neglect gives reasons for it but does not excuse his actions. Priscilla faced even worse but she did not descend into manipulative villainy. It would be different if he just sat back in his Tomb and the hero, unprovoked, went in there and slaughtered him. But no, he pulls the strings on 2 covenants (DM and Princess).

    As for killing him, only if I'm on a Faith build. Otherwise no, because I hate the Catacombs/Dark Anor (so actually thanks Gwyndi for that illusion of yours, Light Anor kicks the *** of Dark Anor completely).

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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by ResIsBestStat on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:51 am

    Gwyndolin's story is tragic like the story of others.
    Yet I don't like the fact that he's manipulating you to kindle the flame and sacrifice yourself.
    I consider Gwyndolin Chaotic Neutral.
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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by ExplodingPenguin on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:52 am

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:He's an extremist, plain and simple. Abuse/neglect gives reasons for it but does not excuse his actions. Priscilla faced even worse but she did not descend into manipulative villainy. It would be different if he just sat back in his Tomb and the hero, unprovoked, went in there and slaughtered him. But no, he pulls the strings on 2 covenants (DM and Princess).

    As for killing him, only if I'm on a Faith build. Otherwise no, because I hate the Catacombs/Dark Anor (so actually thanks Gwyndi for that illusion of yours, Light Anor kicks the *** of Dark Anor completely).

    Um I'm kinda confused on the extremest part.


    And is Dark Anor that bad? I haven't shot Gwynevere yet...


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:56 am

    Darmoons are a very extremist bunch. And yes, Dark Anor blows. The lock-on range goes to **** and it's just depressing. I'd take the happy illusion over not being able to see any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by DaFarmerProject on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:59 am

    ExplodingPenguin wrote:
    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:He's an extremist, plain and simple. Abuse/neglect gives reasons for it but does not excuse his actions. Priscilla faced even worse but she did not descend into manipulative villainy. It would be different if he just sat back in his Tomb and the hero, unprovoked, went in there and slaughtered him. But no, he pulls the strings on 2 covenants (DM and Princess).

    As for killing him, only if I'm on a Faith build. Otherwise no, because I hate the Catacombs/Dark Anor (so actually thanks Gwyndi for that illusion of yours, Light Anor kicks the *** of Dark Anor completely).

    Um I'm kinda confused on the extremest part.


    And is Dark Anor that bad? I haven't shot Gwynevere yet...

    I did it last night. It's creepy as hell.

    But really there's no enemies, except for the new NPCs. So a total of 3 enemies, plus the painting guardians. It's no longer a really magnificent looking place, just.... dark.


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    Re: I feel so bad for Gwyndolin

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 11:38 am

    Gwyndolin is one of my favorite characters in the game actually. I think the evidence from item descriptions and the like really produce a vivid, crazy picture of him. He seems like a good contrast to many of the other characters at first glance (relatively ordinary, almost beautiful).....then come the tentacles.

    Anyway, regarding art work in the city....remember that this is just speculation but it's my theory after a lot of discussion in the archives:

    The missing statue in the boss battle. The pillar is higher than the other two statues. It's actually a double pedestal meaning that the person originally meant to stand there is likely the smallest. Gwyndolin is tiny compared to Gwyn....we assume Gwynevere is comparable to the statue in relation to her father. The First Born, aka God of War could be a runt.....but my best guess is Gwyndolin's statue meant to be there. Also, there could be just leftover data that didn't get removed, but there is collision data there

    again, possibly just a data remnant:


    I don't have good pictures of the painting in the bedroom but both bedrooms are chock full of paintings. One is mostly portraits. Best I can tell, of all the portraits in the room, there are three people figured. One is not reminiscent of anyone in game but kind of looks like Rembrandt style portraiture (like the Painted World painting looks like Rembrandt's landscapes to some degree) and seems consistent with R's era etc. So....the lore nuts we are think that Ariamis=Rembrandt and that this person is Ariamis. There are two pictures of a second individual at different ages (near the door). One appears to be a handsome young woman. The other is an androgynous child, with what could be either a dress for a girl or a boy. This is again consistent with male pictures of children from Rembrandt's era but at first glance most of us would likely think....
    "That's a little girl" Of note again is how similar these two portraits are, an androgynous youth right next to a young "woman." It's these portraits that I think are Gwyndolin. The older picture is also holding a cloth I believe that could be the origin of the Darkmoon Talisman.

    The last person pictured is Gwynevere, in the same pose as you find her in her chamber. As the consensus is that the chamber version is a glorified version of Gwynevere (compare physical size and chest size to her statue in the O&S room) was made by Gwyndolin, I personally feel the presence of this painting is a little evidence that the room belonged to someone who idealized her. It's also a different painting style than the rest of the portraits suggesting that Gwyndolin loved Ariamis' portraits (and maybe the man to a degree) and also painted. He then brought his image of his sister over to the construct we meet.

    Again, this is all theories based on what I've seen and how I think everything fits together.

    Fun fact...the picture of the younger Gwyndolin is wearing the pendant.



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