Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

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    SadPanda
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    Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by SadPanda on Sat Apr 27, 2013 9:32 pm

    Since greatshields have been disappointing in both Demon's Souls and Dark Souls, I am anxious to see what they do with them in Dark Souls 2. The only things I could think of is a better bash attack, more damage to the bash, a better push if the greatshield is in your left hand, or a charge if you're blocking while dashing. Also, the bashing small shields were a disappointing as well, so I wonder if they are going to be improved, or just cut from the game in general. I really hope they improve upon offensive shields in Dark Souls 2, because I like the whole "badass wall" feel.
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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by ICEFANG on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:06 pm

    I think if they had deflection work, at least in a PvP sense, Greatshields would be so much better.

    For the stat requirements, and weight, medium shields just win on the damage reduction, but your guard would never be broken. In PvP, people can spam safely against them, so they are only really good for those spear turtles, but since the attack will never deflect, even the ability to parry means that medium shields are usually preferred.

    In PvE, I think GS are just fine, they are really good, although anything *can* work.


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by dixego on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:11 pm

    Maybe if the bash attack had not better damage but drained more stamina from an opponent with shield up, it would be more useful for PvP.

    As for PvE, I've always found greatshields to be kind of useless even from a stability standpoint, since the best medium shields can offer great protection with just a fraction of the weight. But we'll see...
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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by SadPanda on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:46 pm

    ICEFANG wrote:I think if they had deflection work, at least in a PvP sense, Greatshields would be so much better.

    For the stat requirements, and weight, medium shields just win on the damage reduction, but your guard would never be broken. In PvP, people can spam safely against them, so they are only really good for those spear turtles, but since the attack will never deflect, even the ability to parry means that medium shields are usually preferred.

    In PvE, I think GS are just fine, they are really good, although anything *can* work.
    I wasn't even thinking about deflection in PvP, thanks for pointing that out. But I suppose deflection would be kind of broken in PvP, because people could turtle, then when you hit them they abuse he deflection to BS fish.
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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by SadPanda on Sat Apr 27, 2013 11:48 pm

    dixego wrote:Maybe if the bash attack had not better damage but drained more stamina from an opponent with shield up, it would be more useful for PvP.

    As for PvE, I've always found greatshields to be kind of useless even from a stability standpoint, since the best medium shields can offer great protection with just a fraction of the weight. But we'll see...
    I suppose that the stamina drain would be amazing in PvP. But I guess kicking is just as good, we'll just have to wait and see if the shield mechanics change in Dark Souls 2.
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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by Serious_Much on Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:52 am

    Well in my opinion the reason greatshields have the awful bash instead of parry was for balancing reasons, though I could see a shield charge (yes thats ripped from dragons dogma) or something in there..

    I agree that shield deflection should be used in PvP, if it would work in coherency with BS, cus the deflection pve enemies have off greatshields plus lag would make certainty for a BS..

    Anyways, Greatshields are perfectly fine for pve- infact they're a little too good in PvE if I'm honest, you can tank anything with the higher stability ones like artorias shield- and who admits on their first playthrough using the pre nerf eagle shield? What a monster.

    Realistically, the only changes made to the greatshield should affect PvP only, they becoming more an more separate parts of the game series sadly, though they are better as wholly cohesive in my opinion. But as usual I'd remind everyone that the game is designed primarily for PvE (every game should really but some are stupid), so really long as something works well in PvE, we shouldn't really complain.


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by ICEFANG on Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:57 am

    I've also always wished that all medium shields that are currently considered good, or anywhere in the 100%-95% phys redux would get lowered by 5%. I think that if medium shields would still chip you, and great shields were the only pure form of phys defense, they would also be quite a bit better. We also need more normal greatshields. Right now, its Eagle at 16 STR and 6 weight, next is Tower at 30 and what 16? That's just such a large leap that the eagle shield isn't even really a greatshield.


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by SadPanda on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:14 pm

    So after two months I thought of something like this. With the larger, heavier greatshields, the bash is very strong poise break wise, but also does a decent amount of AR (around 300).

    But with smaller greatshields, and the heaviest greatshields, there is a special defensive stance that is triggered when L2 is pressed. In this stance, attacks from the front are rendered nearly useless, and you walk slowly. Sort of like TWoPing yourself, minus the poor turn speed.


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by ICEFANG on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:27 pm

    What? L2 is bash, L1 is block, do you mean with Havel's Shield?


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by SadPanda on Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:40 pm

    ICEFANG wrote:What? L2 is bash, L1 is block, do you mean with Havel's Shield?
    Yeah, the bash would only be capable with medium greatshields. Tower shield, GSoA, etc.

    But I guess that L1 would work better... It would make greatshields a greater risk vs. reward system. THANK YOU!


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by RANT on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:08 pm

    i wish for the deflection to work for pvp, but greatswords and bigger weapons should not get deflected since they're big and heavy. i agree with ice also on the thing about the greatshields beign the only one with 100% phys block since getting hit with a med shield still hurts. also if the bash would knock people down would be awesome, i don't think it would be op at all since the bash is slow and would take practice to get hit people with it.


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by SadPanda on Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:30 pm

    RANT wrote:i wish for the deflection to work for pvp, but greatswords and bigger weapons should not get deflected since they're big and heavy. i agree with ice also on the thing about the greatshields beign the only one with 100% phys block since getting hit with a med shield still hurts. also if the bash would knock people down would be awesome, i don't think it would be op at all since the bash is slow and would take practice to get hit people with it.

    http://soulswiki.forumsrpg.com/t20961-possible-new-critical-attack


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by Reaperfan on Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:15 pm

    If you ask me, all they would need to do is make it so greatshields deflect small weapons (or maybe just thrust-type damage) even if they're being two-handed. There would have to be balance changes to counter-hit damage (especially on spears/rapiers) but right now they have nothing to compete offensively with the power of parrying. In order for them to be worthwhile, they need to give Greatshields a way of creating openings in opponents attacks.


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by LunarFog on Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:12 am

    Granted, it would have been great if the greatshield's bash attack took out more stamina to a blocking opponent, but they're REALLY good in terms of what a shield is all about: blocking.

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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:28 am

    I'm 100% behind Lunar on this one, they're just fine as they are.

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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:30 am

    Never fix what is not broken. I am with Pendant and Lunar on this one.


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by ICEFANG on Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:00 am

    In a PvP sense, they are nearly worthless, I can barely make room for one on my dragons, and they don't provide any notable defense over the normal heavier shields (Sunlight, Sliver Knight, Black Knight). I mean at 16 wt, you won't see too many with Artorias' Greatshield, and at 13, the lightest true greatshield, Tower, has 100-40-75-50, and Sunlight has 100-30-75-50. There is no reason to use up 9 wt and have a high requirement and lose parry. There is almost never a time where a greatshield is just great.

    In PvE, they do a good job, but then again, you can do anything in PvE.

    Sliver Knight is 100-40-75-65 and only loses 10 stability (remember back in 1.03, it wa s capped at 83 or 86 something? So broken).

    Black Knight is 100-25-95-65, compared to Black Iron GS, 100-40-90-50.

    Artorias' Greatshield has a laughable low lightning at 40, I consider Sliver Knight to be better than that 100-50-80-40.

    Giant's is 18 wt, and at this point, the defense becomes great enough that its worth it, although its too heavy to be effective. I still pick Sliver Knight or Black Knight over it.

    Stone is amazing, and very heavy, its got such good defense, but tieing with Crest Shield in magic and only getting +20% lightning and fire, for 17 more weight and 38 requirement?

    Havel's has nothing that compares to its defense, but at 26, almost no characters that use it will be fast rolling. Its just better to dodge, parry when need, and block occasionally than use it. The buff is amazing though, its always great to 2 hand it and use it at 37 STR.

    Its just not good enough in PvP, the Medium, and heavy Medium shields just win out overall.


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    Re: Reliability of Greatshields in Dark Souls 2

    Post by Seignar on Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:38 am

    PvE, there is nothing wrong with them as they are near impossible to break if only by the mightiest of attacks. PvP, they simply cannot compete with the broken backstab mechanic and the fact their opponent is not idiotic enough to waste their time; that, and the Shotel.

    So, there are only 2 ways to go about this. Either the effectiveness of Greatshields are boosted (which would make them broken in PvE) or you nerf all other shields.

    Fact is, buffing Greatshields so their bash attacks are more powerful would require the buffing of mobs in general, for a buff to the bash would give Greatshields large defensive and offensive capabilities (the ability to break guards is very offensive).

    On the other hand, nerfing other shields would cause an indirect buff to Greatshields without having to buff the mobs. It would also prove to be an indirect buff to Normal +15 and Clubs, as then that upgrade path can chip (better than elementals) and Clubs could break guards more easily. Which would also be an indirect nerf to elementals.

    In my opinion, I would choose a nerf to Medium Shields, but I would also like some more lighter Greatshields.


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