What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

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    What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Odinbear on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:30 pm

    Seen the term used several times, I'm assuming this is not a JACK-OF-ALL-TRADES build?
    I could use some enlightenment.


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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by User1 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:32 pm

    A build that can use pretty much all types of weaponry with maximum capability.

    Another definition, to be simple, is a build with 40/40 in dex and strength.
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Dibsville on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:32 pm

    Normally, a quality build consists of stats such as 28-40 (28 Strength, 40 Dexterity), one of the most common is 40-40, where you can literally use every weapon besides the ones that require Faith or Intelligence. Example


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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by steveswede on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:38 pm

    Strength and dexterity values are equal.

    Example.

    Weapons

    Strength C, Dexterity C

    Strength B, Dexterity B

    Characters

    Strength 40, Dexterity 40

    Strength 30, Dexterity 30

    Though some will say being able to use all weapons is a quality build, to me that's just a jack of all trades.
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Shindori on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:50 pm

    Everyone forgets of the 50 str weapons.. 40 can use all, my ***... /cuddles demon's great machete./


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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by User1 on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:51 pm

    40 can use DGM.
    (Notices 2 hands)
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Odinbear on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:52 pm

    Ahhh. I have several of those types going. Almost a jack build. I consider a jack build as one that STR, DEX , FAITH, MAGIC are all leveled to some extent. my first build tried to use everything he found. He was good, but the last couple builds I've been doing Specialize in certain skills. I don't switch weapons and armour much. I don't hit the changing room for each boss. I fights with what I gots.


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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:55 pm

    steveswede wrote:Strength and dexterity values are equal.

    Example.

    Weapons

    Strength C, Dexterity C

    Strength B, Dexterity B

    Characters

    Strength 40, Dexterity 40

    Strength 30, Dexterity 30

    Though some will say being able to use all weapons is a quality build, to me that's just a jack of all trades.

    This^ is the true definition of quality.... That or Mildred


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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by ublug on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:00 pm

    In demon's souls you had an upgrade path called 'quality', and all weapons you upgraded to quality got an equal str/dex scaling of C/C. This meant you could use both strength and dex weapons on the same character to their full potential. The term just carried over to dark souls, but it's still a build focused on maximizing the C/C weapons.
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Dusk Soul on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:31 pm

    Is there any weapon with B/B scalling?
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Seignar on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:48 pm

    The term "Quality" came from Demon Souls that had an upgrade path called "Quality". Quality weapons would have their STR and DEX scaling rebalanced to be equal (which was usually C/C/-/-). Ironically, Quality builds didn't really exist in Demon Souls, because the only real "Quality" build was called the "Butcher Knife" build or, in some instances, "Blue Blood" build.

    The term carried over to Dark Souls to identify all types of weapons that shared double scaling in STR and DEX, with the maximum scaling being C. D and C scaling is still considered quality, while E scaling is considered "Non-Scaling", although E/E/-/- (if existent) can still be considered quality. Ultimately, any weapon whose STR or DEX is 2 scaling points higher than the other is not considered a quality weapon.

    A quality build is used to define a build who would use quality weapons efficiently by maximizing out their STR and DEX (usually at the cost of VIT, END or casting abilities), usually the build takes advantage of 2-handing properties and as such, the term quality usually indicates builds that are at 28/40/x/x and are heavily associated with the Murakumo, Claymore and Straight Swords. Variants of Quality builds include 27/40/x/x, 34/40/x/x and 40/40/x/x. Also, there is the rare 27/45/x/x and there is a variant called the Spellsword Quality which has 27/40/15/x.

    The characteristic of a Quality build are usually defined as having extremely high damage outputs for all weapons (particularly the Composite Bow) as well as being able to offset negative points of many weapons.

    For example, a Quality build has similar damage outputs with the Zweihander as a STR build does with the Demon's Great Machete (they are only 20 AR apart), so the Quality build can ignore the DMM and go use the Zweihander that has 2 advantages over the DGM:

    1) It can stunlock.
    2) It weights 8 units less.

    Another example is that with the Claymore. Compared to the Man-Serpent Greatsword, the Quality Claymore has 3 higher AR, weights 4 units less, and has a stabbing attack in its R1 moveset. A quality build has more advantages than a STR build.

    One last example is that of the Washing Pole. In comparison to a Uchigatana, it has a higher AR than the Uchi and a longer reach. The only off in this weapon is that it is heavier and swings a bit slower, but you can see a Quality build beats a DEX build in the reach and damage game.

    Another small fact is that due to the 40 DEX, Quality builds that manage to mix in casting will most likely have incredibly faster cast times than most dedicated mages. This makes them proficient with Pyromancy.

    The Quality build only suffers 2 disadvantages. To accommodate this massive stat investment, it usually has either less VIT or less END that most other builds. In some cases, in order to offset that, the builds usually completely remove casting investment for extra health or burden; in others, they simply put on a RoFaP (Which puts them at a 1 ring slot disadvantage).

    This is an example of a SL99 Quality

    Its advantages include:

    - Maxed Scaling in all weapons
    - Maxed casting speed, proficient use of Pyromancy
    - Access to efficient use of quality weapons

    Disadvantages include:

    - Lack of Sorcery power
    - Lack of Health
    - Lack of Endurance
    - Compromised Ring Slot


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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Dusk Soul on Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:53 pm

    Great analysis Seignar, respect for you. And there is at least 1 E/E weapon, the Gravelord Sword
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Odinbear on Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:38 pm

    Yes Siegnar, nicely done. Early on, first builds always leveled STR & DEX one even used that claymore in the forest fairly effectively. Seems just logical to build that way.


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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by steveswede on Sat Apr 27, 2013 3:55 pm

    Seignar wrote:The term carried over to Dark Souls to identify all types of weapons that shared double scaling in STR and DEX, with the maximum scaling being C. D and C scaling is still considered quality, while E scaling is considered "Non-Scaling", although E/E/-/- (if existent) can still be considered quality. Ultimately, any weapon whose STR or DEX is 2 scaling points higher than the other is not considered a quality weapon.

    A quality build is used to define a build who would use quality weapons efficiently by maximizing out their STR and DEX (usually at the cost of VIT, END or casting abilities), usually the build takes advantage of 2-handing properties and as such, the term quality usually indicates builds that are at 28/40/x/x and are heavily associated with the Murakumo, Claymore and Straight Swords. Variants of Quality builds include 27/40/x/x, 34/40/x/x and 40/40/x/x. Also, there is the rare 27/45/x/x and there is a variant called the Spellsword Quality which has 27/40/15/x.

    I highly disagree with this. Given the definition of the quality weapon path in Demon's Souls where strength and dex scaling on weapons become equal, I don't consider offsetting values to give the impression of quality scaling is the same.

    My mind on it is going to be divided to others as I'm only going to treat quality builds from a one handed perspective and what the stats say in game.
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Seignar on Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:03 pm

    2H is still considered scaling. It increases your stat by 50% giving you the additional 13 points to maximize the scaling. A quality build should be defined as any build that aims for 40/40 stat or similar scaling in between STR and DEX, regardless of the method used. There is practically no difference in between 27/40 and 40/40, because it depends on your playstyle.

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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by steveswede on Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:36 pm

    Treating 2H builds as if they were quality builds also means that 2H quality builds are no longer quality builds even though stats say otherwise. That itself is rather convoluted just to add the quality title to a build. Also I don't understand how unequal stats get described as quality considering the quality weapon path is meant to have equal strength and dexterity, yet E/E/x/x is viewed by some as none scaling rather than quality (I understand the scaling is low but it still scales).

    These are community definitions rather than what FromSoft's definition is. Like I said I'm going to be divided on this view and I'm going to treat quality builds how FromSoft treats scaling in the quality weapon path.
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Seignar on Sat Apr 27, 2013 4:46 pm

    The only reason 27/40 gets treated as quality is because the 2H makes up for the inequality by filling the gap. Saying: "This ain't quality because stats aren't 40/40" is like saying "This isn't wizard build because INT isn't 50". If a build is composed of 32 INT and a bunch of buffs with tons of magic, isn't it still classified as a mage?

    There has to be room for adjustments.

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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by steveswede on Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:04 pm

    Seignar wrote:The only reason 27/40 gets treated as quality is because the 2H makes up for the inequality by filling the gap. Saying: "This ain't quality because stats aren't 40/40" is like saying "This isn't wizard build because INT isn't 50". If a build is composed of 32 INT and a bunch of buffs with tons of magic, isn't it still classified as a mage?

    There has to be room for adjustments.

    That's a bad analogy as they behave differently. If quality could be described as another word it would be equality. It doesn't matter what level strength and dexterity you're on, it only matters that they are the same as each other and (in my mind) show that in the stats.

    It also brings into question, what level do stats have to be to be classed as a build? I'm sure some would argue that a 16/16/x/x isn't a build at all yet it's a quality build in my mind.
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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by Seignar on Sat Apr 27, 2013 5:17 pm

    You make a fine point on that question. A 27/27/x/x build would be classified as either a quality build in your mind, or a STR build by most of the community, if only because it aims to maximize STR stat outputs and only does a sub-par job in Quality scaling.

    It is best to define a Quality build as a build that aims to maximize damage outputs by investing in both STR and DEX stats. The 2-handing rules brings complications because it doesn't show it, but it is increases your STR stat to 40, which qualifies a 27/40 as a quality build when 2-handing. It is equal when 2-handing, but unequal when 1-handing.

    I suppose we could define 27/40 as a "Dex/Quality hybrid" rather than a "Quality", by your definition.

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    Re: What does the term " Quality Build " mean?

    Post by steveswede on Sat Apr 27, 2013 6:05 pm

    I could but it feels awkward to do so. Simplicity is the key for me and adding complications like minimum stat investment, maximizing damage using 2H values, the focus around stats at level 40 is very limiting. It's the same regarding builds as a whole, like level 120 builds vs level 99 builds vs builds way higher.

    Perhaps it's time for the community to define what is what for clarity, simplify and maybe make PvE builds a different category to PvP builds.

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