Why R We Better?

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    Animaaal
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    Why R We Better?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:27 pm

    I'm pretty good at Demon's Souls (was) and Dark Souls (on the brink of was).

    I've be on hiatus for about 4 months now approximately. I'm in my thirties and will play video games until I die. I have all kinds of general gaming experience, along with an extensive portfolio of rpg accomplishments.

    Never been pro at any game (welllll maybe a couple), never plan on being. I am competitive as hell though.

    I ask this question and say all this because I just bought a Wii, and I gotta say..."$#%@ Mario and his brother Luigi and his little ho Peach." THERE...I feel a little better. lol

    Mario Kart Wii has been giving me a real challenge and as I've thought about it, so have some other games. About right now I'm close to rage quitting a couple tracks as it is...I'm sure I'll get it next time...next time...

    Seriously though, I know most of the souls community is relatively more talented at video games in general than the casual majority. The question is...why?

    I always thought the souls series was just so skill dependant, now I'm not so sure. It's not a question of are we better than "averagers", but why are most talented players drawn to Dark Souls, or better yet, how are casuals turned into "semi-pros" through the souls experience?

    There is an undeniable difference between us...and them...why?
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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:31 pm

    I'm not one of those better gamers. I am slow to learn. My reflexes are slow. I constantly make stupid mistakes. That being said, I am attracted to hard games (hard core Ninja Gaiden Player). I guess I like getting my butt kicked.

    Maybe that butt kicking makes me a better player?


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Xaelai on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:44 pm

    Playing Hard Games is like Lifting Weights.

    When you struggle with it, you get better. When you ease along with something, you adapt to that. The body (and brain) don't like hoarding unnecessary resources.

    It is why astronauts who spend a long period of time in space need rehabilitation -- their bodies grow so lax that they are too weak to do normal things once they return to Earth's gravity.

    Video Games work in a similar way -- if you play Hello Kitty for 30 years, your brain is used to being half asleep and lethargic. If you're constantly alert and watching the screen for incoming danger, then you get used to that which makes you a better gamer.
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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:45 pm

    I think if a Souls player has anything that makes him/her a better gamer it is the attribute of patience. A lot of gamers these days have just become conditioned to run through levels with their heads down and guns blazing.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Xaelai on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:51 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:I think if a Souls player has anything that makes him/her a better gamer it is the attribute of patience. A lot of gamers these days have just become conditioned to run through levels with their heads down and guns blazing.

    It is perhaps one of the reasons I made it all the way up to Taurus demon before my very first death.

    I've always been the cautious/patient sort. Sometimes to a fault, lol.
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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Hatsune Miku on Thu Apr 25, 2013 11:51 pm

    reim0027 wrote:I'm not one of those better gamers. I am slow to learn. My reflexes are slow. I constantly make stupid mistakes. That being said, I am attracted to hard games (hard core Ninja Gaiden Player). I guess I like getting my butt kicked.

    Maybe that butt kicking makes me a better player?
    Truth!


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Zeta Prime on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:09 am

    The people that have stuck with the souls games so far are the strong minded people that arent intimidated by a harder challenge than what most games offer... we are willingg to put some time, effort and thought to what we do and that is why as a whole we are the better gamers... I don't play much anymore but ever since demons souls the only things i can really stand to play are Zelda and the souls series... it's wierd but the souls stuff changed me to the point where i thinnk most games my friends show me are jokes.. maybe iv become way to stuck up... still love pokemon crystal version for my game boy though!


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by GrinTwist on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:15 am

    I'm not necessarily good at games, I mean I'm relatively decent but I don't consider myself a good player at any of the games I play. If anything the only reason why you can say we might be 'better' is because we have patience to learn from our mistakes. That's really it, at least in my eyes.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:23 am

    Before it comes up again, please keep in mind humility is abundant in the souls community, especially this one.

    There's no denying the facts people. Soulers are different. We are either the ones that our friend asks to help them pass a board on Crash Bandicoot (insert casual game here) or someone who could easily become that person.

    Is it the puzzles combined with technique?

    The ability to adapt within the confines of the programming?

    Maybe the patience like mentioned earlier?

    Please don't let this be a, "We're no better" thing. I love that about this community, but we clearly are special so to speak.

    I'm genuinely curious, this has been on my mind all day actually.
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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:31 am

    I'm not good with many games till I get the hang of everything. By that I mean keep patience and learn the game in-depth. However this game has reinforced this to a deeper thought and I got a list of games I quite long ago and after playing Dark Souls so long I feel I learned how much patience and focus go hand in hand than I did before, something I think that separates us from some other gamers.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Zeta Prime on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:31 am

    I only know one other person who plays dark souls in real life and he is a really good gamer. When people here us doing some dark souls talk in the Cafe at lunch they always go "Why would you play that game if you die so much, i would hate that!" People are just scared of how the game is labelled once you get past "prepare to die" it just becomes "Learn you *****". Truth is im terrible at any 1st person game.. my friends all make fun of my 0.60 call of duty kill and death score... The thing that sets us appart is our mindstuff not our abilities


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Fri Apr 26, 2013 12:49 am

    Poliwrath, believe it or not but that is an actual legit argument so people make against the game. You would be surprised how many criticisms I've seen lodged against the game because "why would you want to play a game that kills you all the time?" really, people take exception to the game because of that fact. Never mind that the game can be breezed through easily in a variety of different ways, you just have to learn something.

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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:32 am

    We don't give up.
    We learn from our mistakes.

    Put those 2 together and sooner or later you will have learned enough to make the game easy.

    I know lots of skilled players who gave up on dark souls because they were not willing/able to learn from their mistakes and they gave up. a lot of skilled players are not willing to 'work' at a game or think for themselves, they want the game to hold their hand.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:38 am

    Poliwrath wrote:I only know one other person who plays dark souls in real life and he is a really good gamer. When people here us doing some dark souls talk in the Cafe at lunch they always go "Why would you play that game if you die so much, i would hate that!" People are just scared of how the game is labelled once you get past "prepare to die" it just becomes "Learn you *****". Truth is im terrible at any 1st person game.. my friends all make fun of my 0.60 call of duty kill and death score... The thing that sets us appart is our mindstuff not our abilities

    Ya but, if you applied yourself/was as passionate about/for whatever reason you loved them, you'd be just as good at those 1st person shooters. I'm horrible too, not because I'm a bad gamer, but because I never play them.

    There are plenty of very skilled "FPS only" gamers that couldn't be competitive in Dark Souls if they tried. Aaaaaaaand yes I'm talking about the whole experience, that means pvp. Random invasions to be more specific.

    I appreciate what you're saying, but you kinda hit the nail on the head inadvertantly. "It's our mindstuffs".

    Lets face it, thats really all there is. Coordinating the mindstuffs to our thumbs is not exactly different than any other video game.

    Why is the souls experience so different, and again, how does it involutarily make a gamer better just by playing it?

    It's hard to deny that a video game player that pops their cherry on a souls game is forever changed.

    I think it has something to do with being able to actually play the game and stay focused while at the same time deal with the indirect emotional undertones forcing us to either, "play or get off the pot".


    Last edited by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 2:38 am

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:We don't give up.
    We learn from our mistakes.

    Put those 2 together and sooner or later you will have learned enough to make the game easy.

    I know lots of skilled players who gave up on dark souls because they were not willing/able to learn from their mistakes and they gave up. a lot of skilled players are not willing to 'work' at a game or think for themselves, they want the game to hold their hand.

    And I like this a lot.
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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Maneater_Mildred on Fri Apr 26, 2013 3:43 am

    Thanks

    Animaaal wrote:

    Why is the souls experience so different, and again, how does it involutarily make a gamer better just by playing it?

    It's hard to deny that a video game player that pops their cherry on a souls game is forever changed.

    Souls games stand apart from the masses because they are so rewarding due to the way the throw you in the deep end and it's sink or swim. We all know those games that it's a case of go to checkpoint A on map, push a button and then onto checkpoint B..... Maybe kill a few guys on the way... Mindless fun.
    Dark souls is a whole different animal. It teaches by punishing mistakes, you need to think, you need to learn for yourself. Even it you look up hints online, you still need to actually play and die to learn.

    I guess a lot of gamers want mindless fun to take them away from real world troubles.... Soulers on the other hand like the challenge and the sense of satisfaction that comes from overcoming something that at first glance seems impossible.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Walter_White on Fri Apr 26, 2013 7:57 am

    Maneater_Mildred wrote:
    I guess a lot of gamers want mindless fun to take them away from real world troubles.... Soulers on the other hand like the challenge and the sense of satisfaction that comes from overcoming something that at first glance seems impossible.

    I think, that s the sole difference - never give up even if capra keeps killing you for days (my 1st playthrough.....was very hard)


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by densetsushun on Fri Apr 26, 2013 8:04 am

    After many, many, many hours of both Souls games, I have to say this about them as opposed to other challenging games: They're not difficult, they're just unforgiving. There are plenty of other games that, while not as unforgiving, are more difficult because they present actual challenges(Anyone who played games with complex puzzle solving involved in progression can attest to that). The Souls series is special in that, the mobs aren't cannon fodder and there's no concept of overleveling, but other than that the levels are easy to master and the mobs are also easy with enough practice.

    With that in mind, the answer to your question would be: resilience. Souls players don't give up after the first death, or the 1000th.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by twigsterxd on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:11 am

    Another thing with the Souls is it's straight forward. What I mean is, the side quests are easy to remember. Game play moves you forward. For example, you don't have to go all the way to Sens, find an item or key to unlock depths. The games are easy to read, you don't need a pen and paper or a walkthru to remember some item you need 2 hours after you found out you needed it.
    Before I got Dark, my bro told me it was like starting a new toon but on ng+ mode. I find it challenging but I know where most of the stuff is. I'm a final fantasy fan, beat a few of them but have never gotten 100% on any of them. That's more frustrating than Souls series. In souls you choose when to end game. In most games you can't go back to get an item you forgot to get.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by iiProdigyv on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:24 am

    I'm not a very old gamer but I've been playing games since I was about 11 , and ever since then I used to like the challenge in the easier games when I was younger because it made me feel like I accomplished something when I beat it, I've played many different games as I'm not shy to try something's I even got in the semi final of a televised tournament for COD not a very know website but still was offerering money to do it, I never ever played any game through on casual because it was too easy, it was the hardest difficult or nothing, I've always been like that. When my friend told me to buy it and come play it with him, it was do impossibly hard that I just got so drawn into the souls game because the game gives you that feeling of accomplishment every time you play it. I do get people go oh why do you play a game that kills you constantly, and for me it doesn't actually kill me all the time part of the challenge is trying to not die at all through a play through.

    We dark souls fans/community are special not better then other gamers but special in the fact that we can never get a hard enough challenge. Even if you've beat the game on mg+7 you still want that challenge. So you do a bows only play through a no level playthrough and you still want more. That's what makes us special.

    Well that's personally my opinion and I haven't been here long so think of it what you will happy
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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by densetsushun on Fri Apr 26, 2013 9:27 am

    twigsterxd wrote:Another thing with the Souls is it's straight forward. What I mean is, the side quests are easy to remember. Game play moves you forward. For example, you don't have to go all the way to Sens, find an item or key to unlock depths. The games are easy to read, you don't need a pen and paper or a walkthru to remember some item you need 2 hours after you found out you needed it.
    Before I got Dark, my bro told me it was like starting a new toon but on ng+ mode. I find it challenging but I know where most of the stuff is. I'm a final fantasy fan, beat a few of them but have never gotten 100% on any of them. That's more frustrating than Souls series. In souls you choose when to end game. In most games you can't go back to get an item you forgot to get.
    Exactly, it's straightforward enough, the difficulty comes in mobs that don't ever really get easier and in an overall unforgiving environment, but that doesn't change the fact that the game in and of itself is easy to master.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Animaaal on Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:25 am

    Hmmm. resilience....I somewhat disagree.

    Here's why:

    Since I've had my little rant about Mario Kart, I've beaten a couple tracks I was having trouble with, and even got my wife a couple new cars last night with her mii....relevance?!?! It was simple repetition. I just had to race a couple times (albeit in a calm,concentrated frame of mind) without getting "blue shelled" 5 times in a row or something similar. It was repetition that won the day, not anything I did differently per say.

    I'd like to share a short story about a buddy of mine I talked into playing Dark Souls, please bear with me.

    I ran a league in DC Universe Online. Not a bad game, but not one of my all time favorites. I spent a lot of time in the game because a lot of my friends played, and I'd come to appreciate the company very much.

    A buddy of mine, we'll call him "tweak" was....well tweaky. If you didn't have a mic in DC it was almost impossible to be a productive member of a league, so in turn you'd catch parts of conversations at any given time when logging in.

    I noticed right away that tweak was...different. He got made fun of a lot, and dealt with it quite well. He was obviously just glad he was getting attention, any attention. It bothered me a lot how people would "talk" to him. I had a zero tolerance policy towards bullying and player neglect, so I nipped it in the bud immediately.

    Any who, over time I came to understand he had a mild case of Asperger's and, imo, touretts. He was actually a guy that would help you with ANYTHING at any given time. He's actually a very compassionate person and a great friend of mine to this day. He just, well he's horrible at communication.

    Over time, as a co-leader of my league, I realized how extensive his understanding about the raids, missions, and overall game play of DC really was. No one gave him the time of day in raids. In DC there were certain missions that took a couple hours to complete, even with seasoned players.

    It was my job to step back at times and let my officers and raid leaders do a majority of the talking in order to practice their leadership skills. We took our raid efficiency and productivity very seriously. You needed at least 6-7 out of the 8 people in a raid group functioning together to complete the mission, or you were really just wasting time.

    I noticed on a frequent basis that tweak would chime in sometimes with a crucial piece of knowledge about the current groups raid dilemma...but no one would listen to him. I found myself turning my mic back on to say, "Ya know tweak brought this up 20 minutes ago if you guys woulda *** listened to him."

    So eventually I bored, I enjoyed the company, but I needed my Dark Souls fix again, and started spending less time playing DC.

    Tweak became interested, so I suggested he go buy the game and we could skype, or talk on the phone.

    So he calls me one day and says, "Fraggle, (my DC character was Fraggle Roc) I got DkS and am at the catacombs, can you help me?" Of course I jumped on with enthusiasm.

    So I get summoned after an onslaught of questions, and I'm thinking, God the catacombs...he'll never get through it and I'm gonna have to constantly be saying, "Stay back, kill the necros, etc." Turns out he runs up from the bonfire guns blazing.

    I start to explain a couple things and he says, "Ya I know, just keep the skellies of me, the necros are dead." I...was...shocked. Not only did he understand the board, but he'd already been to the boss fog, but went back to explore (like all good questers lol) and got killed by an invader.

    He was marvelous. He was playing like me. He was abusing i-frames, showing advanced techniques, and just playing like a champ. I asked him, (we were at apprx soul level 20) "How did you figure out the catacombs??? What exactly have you done so far?" He said, "Well I got killed by the dragon on the bridge and just came here. This board was tough I I'm NOT looking forward to the boss." I just laughed, so did he after we got TwoP, the Darkmoon Ring, and slaughtered Pinwheel.

    Point of the story is...he just got it. He told me over and over that night how unique of an experience this was, how it was so much different than any other game he has played, how he had to actually think before acting, how...this game actually takes skill. One thing he said I could relate to was, "Every game I've played is just, use this tactic, kill enemy, do it again...win. I can't thank you enough for recommending this, its unlike any game I've ever played."

    I believe will is important to a souls player, but I do not believe it stops there.

    There are certain skills and/or characteristics a gamer needs to successfully beat the game and understand the basics of pvp.

    I believe it to be a colaboration of characteristics, just not sure which ones.

    Thanks for all your responses.
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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by densetsushun on Sat Apr 27, 2013 8:55 am

    I highly disagree as well, and I present to you as my piece of anecdotal evidence: James from Gamefront. The guy is an absolute idiot, played hundreds of hours and STILL doesn't get basic game mechanics. Yet he's beaten the game and is either on his way to, or already beat NG+. He has the resilience to push through and do the same thing again. I think resilience is the most important aspect a Souls player needs, skill, tactic or deductive reasoning helps every gamer but resilience is key to not saying "f- this, I'm going to do something else".


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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by twigsterxd on Sat Apr 27, 2013 10:06 am

    densetsushun wrote:I highly disagree as well, and I present to you as my piece of anecdotal evidence: James from Gamefront. The guy is an absolute idiot, played hundreds of hours and STILL doesn't get basic game mechanics. Yet he's beaten the game and is either on his way to, or already beat NG+. He has the resilience to push through and do the same thing again. I think resilience is the most important aspect a Souls player needs, skill, tactic or deductive reasoning helps every gamer but resilience is key to not saying "f- this, I'm going to do something else".
    I agree with you in this sense; I'm just like James lol. I've played many hours since mid january, (this yr), made it to ng+ once. Still can't make a build or get away from using halberd as a weapon. Took a DS break for 3 days and just had to get back into it. It's not only resiliance, it's also the dedication.
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    Re: Why R We Better?

    Post by Latitoast on Sat Apr 27, 2013 12:09 pm

    I think I turn into a Super Saiyan when I play games

    My reactions speed up, and I do just about everything better when I play games.


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    Re: Why R We Better?

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