Is this a good challenge?

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    Satoshi
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    Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Satoshi on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:31 pm

    My friend and I decided that we wanted to race each other in a challenge run of Dark Souls. I was wondering if this challenge was hard enough.

    The rules are:

    1: No Shield

    2: You may not change out or equip ANY GEAR (you can equip your starting gear)

    3: If you take off anything, it is permanent

    4: You must choose the Pendant as a starting gift

    5: No Healing

    6: No upgrades

    7: No buffs

    8: Must be human at ALL TIMES (using humanity at max vit)

    9: No leveling up

    10: No spells of ANY KIND

    11: You may not backstab or parry any foe, no matter offline or online

    Is this good enough?
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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by twigsterxd on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:40 pm

    It's challenging but I can't see anyone making it through that way. Even if you chose the highest level toon or the highest vit toon, 1 shot kills from most bosses. Capra for one would mangle you lol. Hopefully you agreed on allowing phantoms or you gonna take a few weeks getting to end game with base level weapons.


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Flankydizzle on Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:49 pm

    ^ Yep, sounds unrealistic.
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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:41 am

    Is it a good challenge? If by "good" you mean insane then yeah, it's good.

    Seriously though, that's a hell of a challenge run. Good luck. :shock:

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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by DemonOfFate on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:42 am

    It's more tedious IMO. If you allowed upgrades by Andre, then i think it would balance itself and become very much beatable.


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by LunarFog on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:12 am

    What are you, casul? That's not even a challenge. What about this one:

    1.) Start as deprived

    2.) No leveling up

    3.) Can only use weapons you don't have enough stats to use

    4.) No estus

    5.) No bonfires

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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:18 am

    I thought it would be a pretty easy challenge until I re-read it and saw "No upgrades. No buffs."
    Yeah, this seems like a good challenge.


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:57 am

    LunarFog wrote:3.) Can only use weapons you don't have enough stats to use

    Hell yeah, nothing better than a Bandit rockin' that PGS. That's a whole lotta win right there.


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:18 am

    1- No weapons

    2- No armor

    3- No attacking

    4- No running

    5- No healing

    6- No hands

    7- No peeking

    8- No sound

    9- No disc

    10- No TV
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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Werdax on Thu Apr 25, 2013 3:20 am

    Everything is beatable, but I have to say, this challenge is ridicules.
    It is possible, but it will take a great amount of patience and skills to make it through. If you think you and your friend are men enough to do it, then I can only approve.

    ...Oh crap. Now I am thinking about doing this...


    Last edited by Werdax on Thu Apr 25, 2013 7:05 am; edited 1 time in total

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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by User1 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 4:19 am

    The challenge may be good, but it's utterly mental. The amount of patience and effort to go into this one playthrough just would not be worth it, in my opinion. Also, sorry, grammar nazi ways kicked in, a rule is contradictory.

    Using Humanity at max vit, and it says no levelling up. I may have interpreted that wrongly, but that looks like a contradiction to me. Point being behind saying that is, are we allowed to level up vitality, and nothing else, or was it just an accidental error?
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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by vageta31 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 6:09 am

    Most of the game is possible, albeit slow, with these rules but you will run into 2 problems.

    1. 4 Kings
    2. Nito

    Even with pine resin and hyper mode you will be doing so little damage that all 4 kings will have spawned before you even get near taking out the first. Most of the time they will hang back but eventually at least one will engage or send a homing missile or other ranged attack at you. Once this happens you will have to disengage the first king and then all hell breaks loose. Coming from someone who has purposely waited for all 4 kings to spawn as a challenge and completed it, it's not easy. Even with an elemental weapon. Basically if the starts are aligned, it's your lucky day and you play perfectly without mistakes... and this all coincides at the exact same time then you "may" be able to pull it off. My guess is you'll give up long before this.

    Nito himself is a piece of cake, but those 3 skeletons that you will be unable to kill due to no divine weapon will be the problem. Hp wise it'd probably take you 5 minutes of non-stop attacks just to kill him, all the while trying to dodge 3 skeletons AND his gravelord sword attack. With no shield you can't block them so either one or two hits will kill you or you'll get bled out.

    I just recently did a similar challenge and took on Sif with only an SL 5 thief with unupgraded gear. Even with hyper mode and pine resins it took me 2.5 minutes to take him out, all the while perfectly evading every attack. His annoying stomp as he jumps away from you randomly isn't avoidable but does negligible damage. Unfortunately if you get hit more then 3 or 4 times with it while in hyper mode it will kill you so I had to heal and my damage output suffered. Sif is one thing, 4 kings and Nito is something altogether different for the reasons listed.

    You may consider at least allowing +5 upgrades as that would be more realistic though still difficult.

    Edit: Here is a link to the video where I take on all 4 at once with an SL 3 wanderer using a fully upgraded +10 fire scimitar. Now imagine doing this with an un-upgraded one to understand what you're up against.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcZqPCwFpeg


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by twigsterxd on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:30 am

     vageta31 you thought like I did lol. After my post above I thought about this challenge. OP said no shield, no buffs, no upgrades no healing.
    1st problem area; capra and his 2 guard dogs. with weapons at base gonna take at least 2 hits per dog, risk of getting pinned and mauled, 1 hit dead
    Gaping Dragon; 1 tail sweep, dead.
    B Town, going from last save to boss fog, poison you can't cure will either kill you before getting to boss or 1 butt slam fart from Quelaag will kill you.
    Now that I thought about it, I don't think it can be done. Sorry but I don't see it happening. The swamp would be your final resting place. You would need to at least allow healing there. And like  vageta31 said, you gonna need at least a +5 weapon.


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by DaFarmerProject on Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:03 am

    Seems pretty cool, except most enemies including bosses will 1 shot you later.. Capra Demon would mongle your balls.


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Satoshi on Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:56 pm

    I'm sorry I was offline all night, I had to take some medicine which has a side effect of making me fall asleep.

    ======================================================================

    @twigsterxd We shall not be using phantoms.

    @Flankydizzle I agree.

    @WhatDoesThePendantDo? Insane, I like that. Oh, and thank you.

    @DemonOfFate Balance, what's balance? (I ironically cannot stand up straight.)

    @LunarFog We are starting as others just to have some armor, and we are only using the starting weapons because we want to be able to actually swing them. There is already no estus and humanity, I will get to the bonfire later.

    @Dibsville Why thank you.

    @Animaaal ...

    @Werdax I have patience greater than a turtle and the Buddha combined. Also, you should do it as well.

    @RenegadeCop I apologize for not being clear, I can explain why it was made that way, but first, I meant hp, not vit. (when fully healed via bonfire, humanity can be used.)

    @vageta31 I 'may' be able to pull it off? I am a person who doesn't quit. I believe with enough patience, I can beat the game like this.

    @twigsterxd I was thinking of being able to use moss only in Blighttown.

    @DaFarmerProject Correction, most bosses CAN one-shot me. I have confidence in beating Capra.

    ======================================================================

    First thing first, I apologize for not typing clearly, I recently went through surgery which led to my left arm (I am left handed) being temporarily paralyzed. It has also hurt my balance and my ability to think for short periods of time. That is why I was so sloppy.

    To Lunarfog, We will be using bonfires, but a limited amount, I was thinking of only being able to use THREE bonfires throughout the entire playthrough. The one if Firelink does not count. If you even light the bonfire, it means you have chosen it.

    To RenegadeCop, Look to the 'First thing first' paragraph to know why I put vit.

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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by User1 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:02 pm

    Hmm, I see now, thanks for the clarification, Satoshi.
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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Satoshi on Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:17 pm

    No problem, I SHOULD recover by this tomorrow, and that's a big should. Once I do, I should be able to start the run then, or I might wait a day to make sure.

    ...Another rule...

    12. If thief is your starting class, you may not use the master key.
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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by vageta31 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 5:44 pm

    @Satoshi

    This goes beyond patience though. I've been playing DkS from the beginning and know a lot about challenge runs and what is "theoretically" possible in the game so my thoughts weren't just conjecture but experience. I have an entire channel based on it and was doing "naked" runs over a year ago. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy as I don't like using the word impossible, I took the time to explain in detail and it seems like you didn't even bother reading it because it didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. No argument of how you were going to overcome the obstacles I laid out before you, just an "I don't give up"?

    Persistence alone isn't going to be good enough this time. Do the math. With a starting weapon and the 4 King's relatively high defense you will be doing maybe 10-15 damage max per hit. The Kings have something one the line of 9500+ hit points, meaning it would take something on the order of 650 swings, and that's being exceptionally forgiving in my estimations.

    If it were a lone boss where you could take your time and fight carefully all day long then sure, it's possible with enough patience. Tell me how you plan on dodging 4 Kings simultaneously while still finding time to actually attack and manage to not make a mistake for the amount of time it would take. What I mean by "may be possible" is if you got some crazy RNG situation where no Kings used their homing missile the entire > 1 hour fight then possibly, but the chances of this happening are almost nil.

    I've had people tell me how possible this is for over a year, yet I've never seen a video produced. For me to believe it I'd have to see it. After all we are on the interwebz where everything is possible as long as "your friend saw you do it".


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Satoshi on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:13 pm

    vageta31 wrote:@Satoshi

    This goes beyond patience though. I've been playing DkS from the beginning and know a lot about challenge runs and what is "theoretically" possible in the game so my thoughts weren't just conjecture but experience. I have an entire channel based on it and was doing "naked" runs over a year ago. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy as I don't like using the word impossible, I took the time to explain in detail and it seems like you didn't even bother reading it because it didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. No argument of how you were going to overcome the obstacles I laid out before you, just an "I don't give up"?

    Persistence alone isn't going to be good enough this time. Do the math. With a starting weapon and the 4 King's relatively high defense you will be doing maybe 10-15 damage max per hit. The Kings have something one the line of 9500+ hit points, meaning it would take something on the order of 650 swings, and that's being exceptionally forgiving in my estimations.

    If it were a lone boss where you could take your time and fight carefully all day long then sure, it's possible with enough patience. Tell me how you plan on dodging 4 Kings simultaneously while still finding time to actually attack and manage to not make a mistake for the amount of time it would take. What I mean by "may be possible" is if you got some crazy RNG situation where no Kings used their homing missile the entire > 1 hour fight then possibly, but the chances of this happening are almost nil.

    I've had people tell me how possible this is for over a year, yet I've never seen a video produced. For me to believe it I'd have to see it. After all we are on the interwebz where everything is possible as long as "your friend saw you do it".


    Actually, I have read what you said many, many times and it has said what I was looking for, but I do not have the brain power to actually come up with an argument, all I could think of was "I don't quit." I truly apologize for my idiocy. 650+ swings? That does seem exceptionally difficult. With your last two paragraphs, those completed the turning point of my decision.

    With every point you have stated, I will make exceptions for a few bosses in the game that can help balance it out. I truly thank you and apologize for everything.

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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by vageta31 on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:49 pm

    Satoshi wrote:
    vageta31 wrote:@Satoshi

    This goes beyond patience though. I've been playing DkS from the beginning and know a lot about challenge runs and what is "theoretically" possible in the game so my thoughts weren't just conjecture but experience. I have an entire channel based on it and was doing "naked" runs over a year ago. I'm not trying to be a negative nancy as I don't like using the word impossible, I took the time to explain in detail and it seems like you didn't even bother reading it because it didn't tell you what you wanted to hear. No argument of how you were going to overcome the obstacles I laid out before you, just an "I don't give up"?

    Persistence alone isn't going to be good enough this time. Do the math. With a starting weapon and the 4 King's relatively high defense you will be doing maybe 10-15 damage max per hit. The Kings have something one the line of 9500+ hit points, meaning it would take something on the order of 650 swings, and that's being exceptionally forgiving in my estimations.

    If it were a lone boss where you could take your time and fight carefully all day long then sure, it's possible with enough patience. Tell me how you plan on dodging 4 Kings simultaneously while still finding time to actually attack and manage to not make a mistake for the amount of time it would take. What I mean by "may be possible" is if you got some crazy RNG situation where no Kings used their homing missile the entire > 1 hour fight then possibly, but the chances of this happening are almost nil.

    I've had people tell me how possible this is for over a year, yet I've never seen a video produced. For me to believe it I'd have to see it. After all we are on the interwebz where everything is possible as long as "your friend saw you do it".


    Actually, I have read what you said many, many times and it has said what I was looking for, but I do not have the brain power to actually come up with an argument, all I could think of was "I don't quit." I truly apologize for my idiocy. 650+ swings? That does seem exceptionally difficult. With your last two paragraphs, those completed the turning point of my decision.

    With every point you have stated, I will make exceptions for a few bosses in the game that can help balance it out. I truly thank you and apologize for everything.


    No reason for an apology, I probably came off more harsh than I intended. Just trying to save you a headache. I'd say limiting to a +5 weapon with pine resin is in the range of "doable" but still extremely difficult and praise-worthy. I did it with a +15 claymore using gold pine resins with an sl 5 knight and I still couldn't kill them fast enough to stop the next from spawning. +10 would be even harder and +5 pushing the limits. I think a +5 scimitar, longsword or bandit knife combined with pine resins, red tearstone ring and some grass for stamina management may be possible.


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu Apr 25, 2013 8:54 pm

    I've done it with a SL 1 Pyro with a +10 Hand Axe and some Gold-Resin, but I was exploiting DWGR to the very end. Even then, it still took my about 40 tries. Doing it with a +5 weapon let alone at base level is probably going to be near-impossible without Red Tearstone, and then you'd also have to constantly worry about their magic attacks unless you can find away to Estus then get hit to go back into RTS mode.


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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Satoshi on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:00 pm

    vageta31 wrote:

    No reason for an apology, I probably came off more harsh than I intended. Just trying to save you a headache. I'd say limiting to a +5 weapon with pine resin is in the range of "doable" but still extremely difficult and praise-worthy. I did it with a +15 claymore using gold pine resins with an sl 5 knight and I still couldn't kill them fast enough to stop the next from spawning. +10 would be even harder and +5 pushing the limits. I think a +5 scimitar, longsword or bandit knife combined with pine resins, red tearstone ring and some grass for stamina management may be possible.

    It is completely fine. About the headache, I suffer from them constantly and the doctors don't know what is wrong with me. A +5 with pine resin seems like a good idea as well. You know, I've used the claymore only once...and that was against a hollow soldier. I loved it, but switched to the zweihander instead. When I can actually do the run, I will see how the Four Kings are and see if I would need to make small changes for the battle to make it "doable." My friend plans on using the bandit's equipment as I use the warrior's equipment. I was thinking of the RTSR if I allowed rings, but I don't know how much damage it would do. I might implement the grass if we run into major stamina problems. Finally I was thinking of letting moss be used freely.

    Thank you for your suggestions, I greatly appreciate it.


    Edit: So...ring use should be permitted? If so, should it be limited to one ring, or both?
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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:08 pm

    Red Tearstone raises your damage output by 40%, so it's a significant increase, however, it does make you more vulnerable, make no mistake about that. On the whole, I think it would help you so I would recommend it.

    Oh, and best of luck to you with regards to your health.

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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Satoshi on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:13 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Red Tearstone raises your damage output by 40%, so it's a significant increase, however, it does make you more vulnerable, make no mistake about that. On the whole, I think it would help you so I would recommend it.

    Oh, and best of luck to you with regards to your health.

    Well, bosses will be able to one-shot me without effort, so, the vulnerability won't matter at all. I will permit the use of the RTSR because it seems to just be logical now.
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    Re: Is this a good challenge?

    Post by Dibsville on Thu Apr 25, 2013 9:52 pm

    WhatDoesThePendantDo? wrote:Red Tearstone raises your damage output by 40%, so it's a significant increase, however, it does make you more vulnerable, make no mistake about that. On the whole, I think it would help you so I would recommend it.

    Oh, and best of luck to you with regards to your health.
    Actually, Red Tear raises your attack power by 50%. Power Within raises it by 40%.


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