[new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

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    Cheylus

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    [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Cheylus on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:51 pm

    Hi ladies and gentlemen,
    (and sorry if I'm not very clear, as english isn't my native language)

    I've just started the game for the fourth time now (~100 hours on Steam) but I haven't finished it yet). I have informed myself about some topics not to struggle too much about building my character and to prevent some mistakes (points in Resistance for example).
    I had a SL 100 Warrior (lordvessel acquired + Four Kings defeated for the first time - I have never gone further) with 36 Vitality, 36 Endurance, 40 Dex and... 25 Faith. Unfortunately, I've only upgraded Faith because I didn't know you could enter the Sunbros without the 25 Faith recquirement. So I've lost a lot of points here and then planned to do another character.

    My other issue with my former character is that I couldn't handle PvP at all (I was using the BSS and some Pyromancies), after hours of "training" with the Forest Hunters. I just wanted to kill 3 players in order to have the objects Avina provides and I couldn't succeed.
    I've never joined another Forest Hunter to "gank" the host / the first time I was invaded, I was panicked (I thought he would took my hard-earned souls away from me forever). The invader saw that and gave me a lot of titanite thingies and jumped off the edge to quit; he knew the match would have been unbalanced. It was nice of him and I want to be as fair as he was.

    I actually had my three kills by doing silly things:
    - I was disguised (naked chest, sack on the head and wood axe) as a wood chopper, then I went to the cliff naked, Praise the Sun pose then proper bow pose then roll into the abyss to refresh myself after a hard day of work. My "victim" sympathized with me and jumped, granting me my "first kill". Another Forest Hunter watched the scene.
    - The second time, another Forest Hunter killed the host for me.
    - The third and last time, I used this build and began roaming and "rolling" around the place like an idiot. It worked well because the host jumped off the cliff. Again. And sent me a message afterwards: "I love you" (true story).
    So, I tried to "properly" kill 3 people in 2 or 3 hours without success, and succeded in 20 minutes by being a jester.

    Now I've started the SL3 Wanderer. I'm in the Depths, and I haven't leveled yet, because I don't know what to do and needed some advices.
    I'm looking for an hybrid build. I didn't like seeing "tanks" with heavy armor/maces as an invader, and I also dislike one-trick ponies. I don't want to use some "cheap" spells (WotG for example, I disliked it a lot). I've also seen a lot of people using the same weapons, again and again (the same scythe or the same katana) and I'm looking for something somewhat original and somewhat efficient.
    I wanted to try something like that, stats-wise, but I haven't the "PvP experience" to fill the blanks properly, to be honest. The game is "old" and I only come accross experienced players crushing me easily in three, two or one hit: I can't learn a thing if encounters last 20 seconds (with 19 seconds of me rolling cautiously).
    Subsidiary question: as a SL3, I've been invaded by Darkwraiths with a lot of stuff I haven't seen yet myself in the game (and I try to be thorough). I tickled them with a BSS+5 (max 20 points of damage). I thought high level people weren't able to invade (very) low-level people. Is there something here I should know or I am not aware of?

    In advance, thank you for your advices.


    Last edited by Cheylus on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:01 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Grammar)

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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by User1 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 12:55 pm

    I can say just to experience the game yourself is one of the best forms of advice. I'm sure people here could give much better advice than I can, but about those people having extremely good things; They are griefers, they have purposefully kept themselves at a very low level so they can upgrade their things to immense power, and invade new, weaker players. These type of people are hated by the honest community.
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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Walter_White on Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:43 pm

    RenegadeCop wrote:They are griefers, they have purposefully kept themselves at a very low level so they can upgrade their things to immense power, and invade new, weaker players. These type of people are hated by the honest community.

    Not really - i farm them (well 80-90%) with hosting on low SL in these areas and give them their own medicine. Most of them are new to PvP and search for weaker enemies they are able to beat.

    40 dex 25 faith and you don't play with him? Sounds good, but aims a little bit on WotG. The builds u see over and over again, are efficent builds (often called cheap) and they are a good way to start PvP because it gives u the chance to have longer fights and learn from that fights.

    The new build u startet replaces WotG spamming with magic spamming....whats the difference?

    I would start with a quality build, to be able to fight with the most weapons and find something u like and want to fight with.
    For me thats BIG weapons and so i went the way of a Tank and builded giant/havel/mask combo (regarded as cheap :roll: ) with the crazy big STR weaps


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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:13 pm

    I agree with walter white about the quality (28/40 or 40/40 str/dex split) build suggestion. It allows you to experiment with different weapons/gear. It will also teach you how to really fight and understand the game mechanics. The guy learning how to roll + bs vs wotg spam my lose more initially but will improve more quickly and will soon be the superior player.

    Once you learn to really fight... incorporating all the different side stuff makes you all the more deadly.

    Have fun and happy hunting.
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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Avenger649 on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:19 pm

    If you started as a wandered you may want to consider a dex/strength intelligent hybrid as these can be very effective. Also, while quality builds are good I would recommend making a pure strength build for the heavier weapons just to test them out. As for gaining experience, you may wish to consider a fight club or just fighting random invasions.


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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:22 pm

    1) Take first toon as high as you can go...it will be your "test" build, like others said.

    2) Go to forest get raped.

    3) Get raped more.

    4) Give in to the ****.

    5) Start over with a preplanned build...then go ****.
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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by DigitaLinsanitY on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:38 pm

    Just took a look at your "like this" build. It looks like you're trying to create a fighter with some magic/buff utility. You're on the right track.

    I'd suggest dropping dex by 5... you don't need the max casting speed for sorceries (especially if they're just support). Adding some str to the build will give you more shield/weapon options. For 10 str and 40 dex you may enjoy a balder side sword + crystal magic weapon. Hard to suggest gear without more info on what you want to achieve.


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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Cheylus on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:26 pm

    Thank you all for your answers.

    The new build u startet replaces WotG spamming with magic spamming....whats the difference?
    My main issue with WotG (after something like 6 hours of me trying to PvP): I've only encountered people with WotG. I've seen some Pyromacies as well. But apart from that, I haven't seen anything else.
    It just felt... well, overused (for a reason, I know!).
    Also, being a wanderer, I have already 3 more points into Int compared to Faith. I think I'll try a Str/Faith build later.

    If you started as a wandered you may want to consider a dex/strength intelligent hybrid as these can be very effective.
    Sorry, I don't understand: are you talking about a "str/dex/int hybrid" or "str/int or dex/int hybrid"? A str+dex+int would be viable (for an average player I mean)?

    Just took a look at your "like this" build. It looks like you're trying to create a fighter with some magic/buff utility. You're on the right track.
    Yes, that's mostly that. I know I won't have enough quick-thinking to use a catalyst while duelling, so I'm looking to "pre-buffs" (CMW or Pursuers). I'm trying to expand what the Wanderer has initially (Dex, Atn, Int), even if I know that's meaningless in the long run.

    I'll definitely put more points into Str to have more options.

    edit: I'm also wondering about defenses. From your experience, should I focus on Physical defs or should I try to split my defenses equally (I haven't seen too much lightning attacks)?
    With my former SL100 Warrior, I was using three parts of the Wanderer set and the Dingy Robe because everything was balanced and light enough to fast-roll. I'm not sure it's a good idea, to say the least...


    Last edited by Cheylus on Tue Apr 23, 2013 3:40 pm; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : formating)

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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Animaaal on Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:27 pm

    DigitaLinsanitY wrote:Just took a look at your "like this" build. It looks like you're trying to create a fighter with some magic/buff utility. You're on the right track.

    I'd suggest dropping dex by 5... you don't need the max casting speed for sorceries (especially if they're just support). Adding some str to the build will give you more shield/weapon options. For 10 str and 40 dex you may enjoy a balder side sword + crystal magic weapon. Hard to suggest gear without more info on what you want to achieve.

    This link is more comprehensive regarding casting speeds for sorceries.

    Some offensive sorceries don't see any reduction in casting time until 45 dexterity: Comprehensive survey of dexterity's impact on sorcery casting speed

    However I would agree that most utility spells/castings do not benefit much from having 45 dexterity.
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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Cheylus on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:02 am

    Finally, I went for this.
    Does it look ok for you?
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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by raecor14 on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:17 am

    HELOOOO NEW FRIEND i just wanted to say your English is AMAZING for someone who was not born into it. as for you hubrid build, do 28 faith, 16 attunement, 40 dex, 40 endurance and as much vitality as you can pump.


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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by kazumoshi on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:23 am

    Cheylus wrote:Finally, I went for this.
    Does it look ok for you?

    It doesn't look that bad stat wise, but you may want to swap around your armor till you find a setup you like that hits 53 poise. This is enough to take a hit from a two handed greatsword swing, which can be pretty vital in trading blows, or escaping a stunlock for newer players. The alternative numbers you could go for are 36 for one handed swings, 45 for poising through a great combustion, and 61 for black flame.


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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by xenon_nobelium on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:24 am

    use catarina legs for 53poise, other than that everything is really solid


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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Cheylus on Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:54 am

    Yes, thank you, I forgot about the exact breakpoint with Poise.

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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by xxalucard on Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:37 am

    I thought I'd write a little since I recently dealt with the same kinds of questions. Before my explanation, here's a build I'm happy with at 120 that I think may fit into what you want.

    hopefully not horrible build

    (the extra endurance is so I can fast roll even without the ring of favor and protection)
    (i often switch the pyro spells around, usually subbing in great fireball / fire surge)


    One thing I'd say is don't limit yourself to not using cheap spells. As a hero of cheapness, I've learned that everything in dark souls can be cheap and overused-- and people will complain about even non-cheap things that they may not fully understand (such as backstabs and dead angles).

    When I used to play street fighter I had people send messages and complain because "all I did was throw them," despite there being several easy counters available.

    I cringe when I see in some tournament settings people have many artificial rules like "no chain backstabs" or "no wotg spamming" or (i feel sick writing it) "no switching equipment in the menu during a fight." (Some rules, like "no turning your xbox off mid-fight" or "max soul level 120-140" I can understand, though.)

    But back on point:

    Do limit yourself in soul level-- don't go past 120. This is the "standard" pvp limit that most players impose on themselves for duels. Many players go past this. But I suggest you try your best not to. Why would I say that, you ask?

    (I'm gonna sound like a super mega ultra nerd here)

    Ever play *magic the gathering*, or *yu-gi-oh*, or any competitive card game before?

    It's similar to the concept of making a deck. They have minimum and maximum deck sizes, kind of like soul levels. Sure, in yugioh, you can have up to a 60 card deck (40 is the minimum)...and in magic there's no upper limit!! But in the tournament scene you would be considered a "scrub" to actually make a 60 card deck (except in a few, very select cases), because it means you haven't trimmed your deck very well. Cutting your deck down to "what's absolutely necessary, and that's it" is very difficult to do.

    But, it's rewarding when you actually come up with a deck where every single card has a purpose-- a specific use to help you win.

    The same idea goes for Dark Souls: You *could* go past 120, but I would challenge that your stat investment, or your "deck", (sorry bout the nerdyness) could probably be trimmed to 120 somehow and still accomplish what you want. It's always difficult to sacrifice a card you like, but you need to focus on what you absolutely *need*, and on what you end up actually *using*.

    "Keep it simple" is really the best advice I can give when it comes to making a build.

    Figure out things that you *absolutely need* and go from there. For me, that's "fast roll", "45 dex" and "53 poise". I won't go without those things... they fit my playstyle too well.

    When you come up with basics like that, you can start investing points into things that you know (at least, you think) won't be wasted, and can let yourself start leveling up in the process.

    Some key things to focus on:

    - Find a weapon you really, really love. What do you always tend to use in PvE?

    - Focus on liking a weapon's MOVESET, not the damage it does. worry about the damage later. If you get comfortable with a certain weapon's moveset you'll play a lot better.

    - Start with basic requirements to use that weapon as your first stat investments. After that, figure out a poise breakpoint you want to reach and get enough endurance to at least wear your armors and weapons and fast-roll (my preference).

    A great thread I found on armor and poise breakpoints is here --> Optimized Armor Combos

    - Then comes the hard part: magic. You can go no magic (pyro), go faith, go int.. or a mini hybrid such as the one I posted above. In any case, figure out what kind of spells you really like, (even if that happens to be wrath of the gods), and start off by getting just enough points so you can cast that spell. Worry about maximizing damage and stuff second.

    - Finally wrap up by deciding on a certain amount of health you want to have. In most MMO's or RPG's, I would usually advocate that "dodging is always better than taking damage," and...it is...but in this game things are a little different and you don't want one phantom slash to kill you. When it comes to health, it's really up to you-- I've seen all kinds of good players either go in one extreme or the other, whether it be vit gouging for an excessive amount of hp (dark souls minds eye) or going for a red tearstone ring "one hit and i'll die" combo. I've also seen people go for the standard "1500," which seems to be a big hit.

    I included vit last because the amount of health you have, while important in this game (due to the way combat works with lag and unconventional balancing), is the least important thing when it comes to making your character. A good player, even one built like a tank, won't win matches just because he had more hp-- he'll win because he was more skilled or the other player made more mistakes.

    I wrote a lot more than I intended, but basically the idea is to "keep it simple."

    I tried to make a build once that included a flame hand, catalyst, and talisman-- trying to do 3 things at once to take advantage of all the awesome spells each class offers (twop, wotg, dark bead, great combustion, etc) but found myself only focusing in one area or another in most fights. Never did I win because I had a 3rd branch of spells to use, and it thinned out my stats and equipment too much to play the way I wanted to play.

    Oh and again, please don't -not- do something because it's cheap or overused. I really hate that. If you like it, think it's effective, and people use it against you... then take advantage of it.

    You don't wanna be like the guys in street fighter that had a secret code of honor when it came to throwing; they may have had their imaginary honor, but they always ended up losing.
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    Re: [new player] My experience in PvP..., I also need advices :)

    Post by Cheylus on Tue Apr 30, 2013 7:43 am

    Thank you for your advices.

    As you can see with the build I posted, I kept it simple. I've used the BSS in PvE and I planned to use it in PvP as well.

    I'm not reluctant to use WotG because it's considered to be "cheap". I started a Dex/Int build and I deleted my "messy" former "Faith" Warrior.

    The main reason why I'm not really attracted to it is I don't like to do the same thing over and over (not as a user of WotG but as a "defender"): the first time I've PvP, I encountered WotGer after WotGer. I'm not mad at it, but I wish I could learn more from other tactics and builds (what should I do with Karmic Justice? Hidden Weapon? for example). I've recently encountered a guy with Chameleon in the Forest; I found him very quickly but that was fun for both of us! A nice change of pace & strategy, while I think I've understood what to do with WotG, its "rhythm".

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