@@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

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    @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by XxxMAYHEMxxX on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:24 pm

    So Karmic Justice seems to be the mysterious spell in the game, working in completely different ways to every other spell...

    So far we have a couple of threads explaining how it works (The one I read by Chiz was great) and that one video that Sansivie uploaded.

    After extensive tests by myself and Rosie on the rats and hollows in the depths (Thanks Rosie), just to see how much damage we could get out of the spell (highest we managed was 2500 on a rat) I decided to see how it fares in pvp...




    First, a quick summary of how KJ works...

    - It doesnt matter what you cast it with, in either hand, only your magic adjust or magic damage of the right hand, at the time of explosion. So this can be a catalyst, pyro flame, talisman, moonlight sword/spear or any magic/Enchanted weapon. However this does NOT include buffs, I found by spell swapping DMB onto MLGS, TCC and enchanted katana, actually lowered the damage (So no cheating guys!)

    - The highest there being the TCC at 99 INT, followed by Manus catalyst and MLGS (Note the bonus STR modifier that Manus catalyst gives to dark spells does NOT work with KJ)

    - The build up to the explosion works in the same way as bleed / poison build up (Imagine a separate KJ bar that builds as you get hit, just like bleed) As you will see in the video, the quickest activation possible is 5 quick hits, and pauses in between hits take 6 or 7 etc.

    - Hits after you die count as well! If you attack someone as they are dying with a chaos blade, youll notice you take the 20 damage per hit, this is the case with KJ You will see evidence of this at the end of the video...

    - This means several ways of activation : Taking the hit, blocking with something that lets some damage through, or rolling through a hit, the same way as bleed cancel (Youll see in the video I rolled a dark bead and it went off with no damage to me, and also I rolled the 5th hit in a series of quick attacks for the same result)

    - The damage you take with each hit is irreverent, you can eat 5 hits with a demon great hammer, or block 5 punches with a shield thats less than 100% PHYS resist, the important thing is that you same SOME damage, no matter how small. (So if anyone decides to have a go at this kind of thing, people using a gold tracer 2H spam, pursuers, dark bead, fire surge or soul mass are a VERY easy kill if you have the right shield)

    - Counter hits make a huge difference with the activation, so a katana spam to activate it will do a massive amount more than a soul mass (If the person is not mid-animation at the time the spell hits you) For an example, the rat in the depths that attacked me took 2500 damage, while the nearby rats only took 1800 or so.

    - The most important thing to remember with KJ is to NEVER underestimate it, when you see that purple aura, slow down your attack speed and avoid spells that hit multiple times. You'll probably think the ruse is incredibly obvious in my video (And it kinda is) But you can bet that none of them thought it would one shot them...



    Anyway here is the video of it all in action, Enjoy...



    The character level is around 240, it has :
    - 99 VIT (So I can invade on red tear hp and still have enough to take a few hits)
    - 40 END (so I could block as many hits as possible)
    - 99INT (So I get as much magic adjust on the TCC as possible)
    - Suns firstborn ring
    - Red tearstone ring
    - Dusk Crown
    - Tin Crystal Catalyst in right hand (See above)

    - Crystal ring shield - The cleansing shield and grass crest are the most efficient ones for this, since they block the heavier melee weapons alot better (My crystal ring got owned against ultra greatswords) But the crystal ring does block magic very well (Youll notice I charged right at soul mass users for zero damage)

    - You COULD use dragon form for this and get a huge damage boost if you manage to get an activation whilst the roar is still active, but that would work on even fewer people, would mean no dusk crown and the damage was already around 1900 on most people... But most importantly Karma is a blonde mage not a dragon dammit!



    Anyway sorry for the essay, I hope this benefits in someway, it was a relly enjoyable video to film, (goes without saying that it didnt work on everyone) and even more fun to discover a hidden gem of a spell that can be super powerful!


    Let me know if there is anything I missed here or anything you would like to know

    Hurrah


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Demon Slayer on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:41 pm

    DAYUM!!


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by XxxMAYHEMxxX on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:43 pm

    Demon Slayer wrote:DAYUM!!

    Lol I imagine most people will skip the boring wall of text, watch the video and think "No fking way is that legit!" And then go back and read it =P


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by EeAyEss on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:55 pm

    I watched the vid on youtube before coming here. My jaw was on the floor at all the 1HKO's. I started making the guesses and assumptions about the mechanics of KJ that you did, lol


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Rynn on Sun Apr 21, 2013 3:57 pm

    Hey, you just made this spell worth considering using.
    Not because of the "1900" damage aspect, but genuinely because I have ALWAYS been told that only physical damage activated it, but you've clearly shown that it works on both phantom hits and magic damage, so only taking damage matters.

    I'll certainly be using this in the future.
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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Prohibition on Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:03 pm

    Awesome video and impressive damage.

    I think some people may mistake the aura that Karmic Justice generates for the Wolf Ring aura since they're similar in color, which most certainly works to your benefit.
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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sun Apr 21, 2013 6:59 pm

    Great synopsis. Mechanically speaking I've been touting the five hit rule, build up bar, less than 100% block shield for quite some time.

    Can't watch the video at the moment but did you mention it works with magic or other damage? I've surprised a caster or two when they thought they hit CHSM.

    Also, it just needs to register a hit. So with my CHSM example I've had it trigger when "hit" during an I-frame in a roll. Meaning I took zero damage but that mage sure did. Sorry again if the video covered that

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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Laveidem on Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:10 pm

    Incredible, makes me want to create a mage-type for once.
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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Seignar on Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:34 pm

    Sadly, KJ is still very impractical for competitive play because of its notable aura, high hit requirement and the fact it works like a meter and not by count.

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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Tarkkus on Sun Apr 21, 2013 11:51 pm

    Neat happy


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by reim0027 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:14 am

    Seignar wrote:Sadly, KJ is still very impractical for competitive play because of its notable aura, high hit requirement and the fact it works like a meter and not by count.
    It would still be good in the forest. Just not for organized intelligent duels.


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Sneezer on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:31 am

    This could be a good supplement to a build, it doesn't have to be the sole form of attack, just something to add dimension to a build.
    Say if you used a pyro glove in your right hand, it'd be a very good form of attack, and they'd have to be very careful with their hits.


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by XxxMAYHEMxxX on Mon Apr 22, 2013 3:22 am

    Sneezer wrote:This could be a good supplement to a build, it doesn't have to be the sole form of attack, just something to add dimension to a build.
    Say if you used a pyro glove in your right hand, it'd be a very good form of attack, and they'd have to be very careful with their hits.

    Very true, you wouldnt have to stack the damage so high like I did here, but you could just use it with an enchanted/divine or moonlight sword in the right hand and fight normally, if nothing else it would stop you getting beaten by any kind of spam by putting them off or blowing up in their face =P

    I think its a fairly practical spell to be honest

    Bow


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by skarekrow13 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:20 am

    I'll just throw out there that relatively few people know what you cast in the forest. I've done it while the host is watching and they still don't realize it

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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Halicarnassis on Mon Apr 22, 2013 9:49 am

    Mayhem this is a great vid. As a DM jKJ is always in my memorised spells and I have played around with karmic justice a bit and the one thing I have noticed is that it doesnt work so well when wearing medium or heavy armour. Something worth considering if you decide to try tanking KJ.


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by densetsushun on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:19 pm

    ...That damage


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by User1 on Mon Apr 22, 2013 12:57 pm

    Seems.. Viable.
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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by befowler on Mon Apr 22, 2013 2:00 pm

    Yes, it works with nearly any kind of hit that deals damage, not just physical. There is a suicide bomber video from some time ago that is pretty good on the mechanics as well, it was based in Anor Londo where you also often face 3v1s. I believe that video pre-dated the patch that dropped the eagle shield physical block from 100 to 95%, meaning that shield is also very useful for this.

    Basically if you see someone holding a TCC with any sort of weird aura around them, assume they want you to spam. Note that it is possible to roll through the KJ blast (albeit hard to time given uncertainty as to firing), and you can also survive it if it triggers on a backstab.


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by abmoner on Mon Apr 22, 2013 8:38 pm

    I was so hoping you meant using the chaos blade would make it go off because you get hurt with every swipe.

    Was so excited I came home and tried but no go.
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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by kramage on Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:31 am

    Basically if you see someone holding a TCC with any sort of weird aura around them, assume they want you to spam. Note that it is possible to roll through the KJ blast (albeit hard to time given uncertainty as to firing), and you can also survive it if it triggers on a backstab.

    Yea I've been using this for a while and it rarely works in duels seeing as the veterans tend to poke then back off but for the forest its perfect since its so dark there and noticing the aura might be tricky. But the meter still filling up during i-frames is something I didn't know, good job!

    I strongly suggest using small shields or shields with no parry animation as your opponent might see it as a chance to R1 spam since there is no risk in being parried like the crystal ring shield.

    This is what I use...http://mmdks.com/20h0

    The bow is for mind games. They think I am a ranged build lol


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Kyuseishu on Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:32 am

    Great post!


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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Rynn on Wed Apr 24, 2013 6:23 am

    what kind of damage do you get if you have a weapon with no magic damage or magic adjust though? That is a good question.
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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Tchuwib on Wed Apr 24, 2013 8:36 am

    Thank for the info and video, that really gave me a perspective on KJ I didn't knew.

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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by Rynn on Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:28 am

    The damage spread is 250 with a bare fist to 2500 (the highest damage MAYHEM recorded)

    So it's got a large range of possible damage.
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    Re: @@KARMIC JUSTICE Explained (with video) @@

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Apr 24, 2013 10:16 am

    Rynn. I tested with a Great Scythe in my right hand. I forget which talisman I casted with. But in that case, the damage was almost always approximately half of what Wrath of God did. Like the OP pointed out, the damage varies greatly on how the attack hits; through a shield, unblocked, or "counter"

    I can say that any Balder I tested on that was caught mid attack was not happy with the results.


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