Another look at the Flame

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    Shkar
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    Another look at the Flame

    Post by Shkar on Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:40 am

    There is a firm line drawn between the people who pull for one ending or another. Obviously, some believe that ending the flame is for the best and some believe that letting the flame roar back to life is what is best. The difference between the two sides is typically the ultimate question: "What does the kindling accomplish?" To take a stab at that question, we must look at what the flame is and what the act of kindling DOES.

    Three Lord Souls came from the flame; we won't count the Dark Soul, as we don't know where that actually came from. Those three souls went to the Lord of Sunlight, the First of the Dead, and the Witch of the Flame. We know that the flame created disparity according to the intro. Specifically, the intro states it created the differences between light/dark, life/death, and hot/cold. But why would it state those specific differences?

    Let's look at the powers of the lords, shall we? Gwyn, the Lord of Sunlight, fights with the power of the sun - lightning. Before going to link the flame, he ruled over the kingdom of Anor (Sunny) Londo. His first two children followed in the footsteps of the God of the Sun, with his daughter succeeding him as the Queen of Sunlight after he linked the flame.

    Nito, the First of the Dead, has great powers over death. He rules over the catacombs, an underground catacomb filled with the remains of the dead. He strikes with poison and miasma - death incarnate; his followers can animate the bones of the dead. His lord soul says that he "administers the death of all manner of beings." The gods in the game don't have the ultimate power that the term "god" brings to mind, but Nito seems to be the utmost authority on death.

    The Witch of Izalith ruled over the underground realm of Izalith. The queen of flame sorceries, she fights with roaring flames. It is her who tried to create the Second Flame and, though she failed, it is her daughter who survived the disaster and taught humanity pyromancy. Whether it existed as it does now before the disaster or not, Lost Izalith is a molten wasteland, filled with magma and slag.

    Gwyn obtained a Lord Soul and became the Lord of Light. Nito plucked out a Lord Soul and became the Lord of Death. The Witch grabbed a Lord Soul and became the Lord of Heat. It's typically assumed, though not stated, that they had these powers before they found the Lord Souls.

    But what if they didn't? We know the flame "created," in one way or another, light/dark, life/death, and hot/cold. We also see that The Three Lords that took souls from the flame gained power over life, death, and heat. We know that they had the Lord Souls before they fought the dragons, but we don't know if they had their powers before that, so what if their powers came FROM the Lord Souls?

    The flame created light/dark, life/death, and hot/cold; three beings took souls from the flame and gained, respective, power over light, death, and heat. It seems likely that this would transfer that power from the flame to the Lord possessing that aspect of "The One Lord Soul."

    So then what happens when the Lord who possesses that Lord Soul experiences something like Death?

    The intro specifies that the undead curse has started (back?) up, and that the sun has (mostly? somewhat?) ceased to rise; the lines between life/death and light/dark are being blurred, if not outright wiped away. We don't have much to on for temperature; it's possible that the world has also gotten significantly colder, but there is no evidence for this. So why would two lord souls fade, but one remain?

    Gwyn divided his lord soul between his servants, his kin, and several of his allies, and then burned as a cinder for the flame. According to Nito's lord soul, much of his power has been dissipated in his role as the Reaper, and he has gone dormant; likely as a way to preserve what little power he has left.

    But the Witch's downfall isn't because her power faded. To the contrary, her power raged out of control when she tried to recreate the flame. If you look at the descriptions of the Lord Souls, something interesting can be noticed: of all the lord souls, al of them say they "satiate the lordvessel." Except, that is, for the Witch's, which says that it "more than satiates the lordvessel." But while that doesn't explain why her power hasn't faded, another part of her experience does: after all, she has merged with a great archtree, a living part of the earth, and likely have some kind of connection with the flame as we see an archtree right before the flame in the intro.

    So the witch's soul hasn't faded because it has connected with an archtree, which is connected to the flame. So the lord souls don't fade when connected to the flame, and are likely actually "healed." So the issue then becomes how to restore the other lord souls by linking them with the flame.

    You bring the lord souls to the lord vessel to open up the Kiln. But is it really the lord souls themselves you place in the lordvessel? At the very least you absorb part of their souls; after all, you do gain some souls (a massive amount) from killing the lords.

    So you place part of the lord souls in the vessel, which, as we see in the Dark ending, burns up while you fight Gwyn. That leaves only the parts of the lord souls that you absorb while obtaining them.

    Which leaves one easy method to return them to the flame. A selfless sacrifice to reinvigorate death and light.


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by WhatDoesThePendantDo? on Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:16 am

    Great read, dude. That bit about the BoC's soul was always interesting to me. When describing Nito's soul it says that the soul is so "great" that "satiates the LV" but for the BoC it's written as if almost in passing like, oh, "it's more than enough to satiate the LV."

    It's like they had to drill it into our skull that Nito's soul was an acceptable offering while of course the BoC's soul is what the LV wants, why would you even doubt that for a second? Then again, it might not mean anything. silly

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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by skarekrow13 on Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:20 am

    Awesome stuff. I've always thought the soul gave them powers. Perhaps their personality was twisted and amplified. Meaning The Witch came very close to duplicating it perhaps maybe


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by xRamenatorx on Sat Apr 13, 2013 9:41 pm

    Very nice. I never really thought much on the three different types of power being related to the disparity refered to in the intro. Though the lordsouls obviously gave them sometime type of power up that allowed them to defeat the dragons; it most likely was the powers you mentioned but maybe they were given eternal life like the dragons? (Dont know the life span in dks but it obviously long....then again times distorted). Obviously you kill nito and gywn but they dont have the full power, if any, of the lordsouls (like you stated).

    It also interest me about how the lord souls were able to help them defeat the everlasting dragons? How does fire, sunlight, and death beat something that has possobly transcended "life". Maybe the dragons could always be killed just that no one had a power level of over 9000 until Gywn and his crew showed up xD
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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by Shkar on Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:06 pm

    Well, despite what multiplayer games have taught us, the biggest monsters can't always be bested by an army of soldiers.

    If it's skin is thicker than the length of your sword, it doesn't really matter how many of you there are. In that case, you need more power.

    The intro specifically says that Gwyn's bolts peeled off their scales, which is the source of their power and normally inseperable. Combine that with someone who can release waves of pure death and a woman who can burn the world itself back, and you have all the power you need.


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by morte on Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:38 pm

    I like this theory. Also, with regards to the dark soul, I think that it was also the result of the first flame, or to be more exact, the first shadow cast by the first flame, the first true shadows. It is my opinion that the first flame was recreated by the unison of the souls born of it's ignition and a catalyst who acts as the source of fuel (you), essentially recreating the big bang of Dark Souls each time, which justifies NG+ as re-spawning bosses and you popping up as well, since you were thrown into the future by the force of the blast and your continued existence continued the curse of undeath, making the cycle perpetual.


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by Shkar on Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:25 pm

    Random theory time:

    We have the lord souls of Light, Fire, and Death (or is Nito life?). We also have the Dark Soul, which is, basically, a Dark Lord Soul.

    So wouldn't it make sense that there would be Lord Souls of Cold and Life (Death?) out there? Actually, I seem to recall a fair amount of snow in the DS2 trailer.


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by alchemydesign on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:06 am

    Like morte, I'm inclined to believe that the Dark Soul did indeed come from the flame as its shadow. As you said, it created disparity, opposites so it's only natural that the Dark Soul came from it.

    Also, it is pretty much given to us that the gods didn't start as gods but as undead...as ALL humans started...they began as undead and found the souls of Lords in the flames. Those souls left were simply human souls. So by becoming undead one is becoming closer to their origins...by hollowing they become that which they started as...mindless husks starving for a soul to fill it.

    The BoC is only passable because even though it was warped the core of it is still there.
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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by Paragon on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:40 am

    morte wrote:I like this theory. Also, with regards to the dark soul, I think that it was also the result of the first flame, or to be more exact, the first shadow cast by the first flame, the first true shadows. It is my opinion that the first flame was recreated by the unison of the souls born of it's ignition and a catalyst who acts as the source of fuel (you), essentially recreating the big bang of Dark Souls each time, which justifies NG+ as re-spawning bosses and you popping up as well, since you were thrown into the future by the force of the blast and your continued existence continued the curse of undeath, making the cycle perpetual.

    I never considered the possibility that NG+ was actually story relevant. Even if it isn't its still a very interesting theory, morte. Well done


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by Paragon on Sun Apr 14, 2013 5:44 am

    alchemydesign wrote:Like morte, I'm inclined to believe that the Dark Soul did indeed come from the flame as its shadow. As you said, it created disparity, opposites so it's only natural that the Dark Soul came from it.

    Also, it is pretty much given to us that the gods didn't start as gods but as undead...as ALL humans started...they began as undead and found the souls of Lords in the flames. Those souls left were simply human souls. So by becoming undead one is becoming closer to their origins...by hollowing they become that which they started as...mindless husks starving for a soul to fill it.

    The BoC is only passable because even though it was warped the core of it is still there.

    I really liked this theory as well. That the "Gods" and the "Humans" were once the same and that what or who they became depended on the souls they found. It makes it merely coincidental that the Gods became Gods and the Humans became Humans because they wouldn't have been distinguishable to begin with. Well done to you as well


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by morte on Sun Apr 14, 2013 8:46 am

    luvz2fight wrote:
    alchemydesign wrote:Like morte, I'm inclined to believe that the Dark Soul did indeed come from the flame as its shadow. As you said, it created disparity, opposites so it's only natural that the Dark Soul came from it.

    Also, it is pretty much given to us that the gods didn't start as gods but as undead...as ALL humans started...they began as undead and found the souls of Lords in the flames. Those souls left were simply human souls. So by becoming undead one is becoming closer to their origins...by hollowing they become that which they started as...mindless husks starving for a soul to fill it.

    The BoC is only passable because even though it was warped the core of it is still there.

    I really liked this theory as well. That the "Gods" and the "Humans" were once the same and that what or who they became depended on the souls they found. It makes it merely coincidental that the Gods became Gods and the Humans became Humans because they wouldn't have been distinguishable to begin with. Well done to you as well

    The souls making you powerful also helps justify the chosen undead becoming stronger than the gods, they used doping and just got that power faster with lord souls, while you had to gain millions of normal ones.


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by alchemydesign on Sun Apr 14, 2013 6:02 pm

    LOL, they should have urine tests for the chosen undead?
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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by DE5PA1R on Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:29 pm

    Sorry for necromancy. My presence was requested.

    Nothing that I fundamentally disagree with except for BoC Soul interpretation. More on that later. A few notes:

    First, I think we often misinterpret the nature of the Lord's Souls. We automatically assume that they are similar just because they look similar and their place of origin is the same. But Nito indicates otherwise. I've posted a few times that I believe Nito is a they, not a he/she/it. There's not enough evidence to conclude either way, but their appearance (multiple bodies) and the language used to describe them is so particular that it appears to be purposefully vague: "the first of the Dead." This could be either singular or plural. But that's not the important point.

    The dead person(s) were dead. Dead, as we know it. Their flesh was gone; nothing but bones remained. They were not conscious. How could dead person(s) just sit up and grab a Lord's Soul? This indicates something deeper. I think the Soul of Nito has/had a mind or will of its own, which animated the dead. This fits with the theory that Pinwheel was attempting to resurrect his mother and child using the power of Nito's Soul.

    The other Lord's Souls did not exhibit this behavior. And we know that the Dark Soul is also different. It's Dark. So there's a great deal of difference between each of the Souls. They may function in fundamentally different ways.

    -----BREAK-----

    As far as the Witch of Izalith/Bed of Chaos goes, I very much disagree with your conclusion that her flame is greater because it is connected to the land or Archtree(s). I think a more likely conclusion is the the attempt to re-create the First Flame was not a total failure. She may have succeeded in growing her Lord's Soul at the cost of birthing the Demons. Occam's Razor prefers this theory, but so does the setting. The theme of sacrifice is heavy in Dark Souls. We also know, on an unrelated note, that high-level sorcery is made of and/or powered by souls. And we know that pyromancy was once a subset of sorcery. During the Dark Souls story, pyromancy is powered by the user. But back in Izalith's days, it wasn't. Perhaps the souls of the people of Izalith were offered/sacrificed in the attempt to re-create the Flame? Would explain perfectly the specifics of how the Lord's Soul increased in power.


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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by alchemydesign on Tue Apr 30, 2013 6:08 pm

    YAY THREAD NECROMANCY FTW!

    *simmers down*

    Nito - When I think of Nito, one quote pops into my mind..."I am Legion, for We are many." Also, something I've been meaning to bring up but just haven't gotten around to it because I haven't done all of the research, and that is Pinwheel....If you notice, in Nito's chamber there is a second coffin...a nice pinwheel sized coffin....like I said, I haven't really researched soooo my working theory is that Pinwheel was originally Nito's apprentice who sought to become the teacher but failed when he tried to usurp Nito's power. Just thought it was interesting.

    Izalith - Funny thing here, also this is totally OFF THE WALL THEORIZING, the Chaos Flame...it's in the Demon Ruins, Vamos tells you it's a flame of New Londo. I believe it's magic was used to start the flame to forge a new Fire and it may indeed have consumed the humanity of Izalith's inhabitants, once they were humanity free it twisted and turned them into the demons they are.
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    Re: Another look at the Flame

    Post by sinspaw on Tue May 07, 2013 6:21 pm

    First of all, very nice thread OP. Really interesting read.

    Secondly, morte that is a great theory about the big bang of Lordran and that it may just be perpetual cycle with NG+'s. This is specially interesting to me because I'm a scientist and I adore it, and I read some news a couple of months ago that recently some physicists have started to theorize that this universe we live is in a possibly perpetual circle of existence itself, in that at some point the universe collapses and is reborn again through another big bang. Again, loved your idea. If there was to be some truth to your theory... I just have to wonder if NG+7 is merely when the difficulty and enemy stats stop rising.

    Thirdly I wanted to add to the discussion the ideas that I'm going through at this moment. I like and agree with the theory that the Dark Soul may have originated when the first flame casted the first shadow, as stated above by another fellow user.

    What I add to this theory is the following: I think that Humans (or the Undead, as you prefer) are the darkness to the gods. Gods see us as we see them. Or better put, Gods see us as we humans on earth see evil spirits and demons (figuratively speaking) in the sense that humans, in Lordran, are the darkness. Humanity is a piece of dark matter, of the dark soul. Therefore the undead are dark inside, not bright. The Lords and the Gods (I think) have brighter, yellower souls. Again, this to me ties with the idea that in that world, as innocent as humans or undead look, they are the darkness to the Gods and Lords.

    The concept of a piece of humanity in this game is nothing short of majestic. It's funny how we read "humanity" and instantly think it's a good, noble, thing to carry around. We are carrying evil itself as far as the Gods and Lords are concerned.

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    Re: Another look at the Flame

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