Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Share
    avatar
    IIdoneus
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 252
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-12-09
    Location : Here but there. In all places, yet only a few locations.

    Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by IIdoneus on Mon Apr 08, 2013 2:05 am

    After playing Dark Souls for half a year now and beating it on three toons and going into NG+ and beyond, Lordran has become a sort of fixation for me. Despite this, there is so much I do not understand, that I feel I should understand. Is Lordran a land, a kingdom, a realm or a parallel universe?

    Races and countries also do not make sense to me. Zena, Carim, Catarina, Vinheim, the Great Swamp, the Far East, the Fivefinger River Delta, Thorolund, Balder, Berinike, and Astora. Are all of these in the same spatial location as Lordran, or are some located outside in a different dimension? Or is it just that Lordran is quartered off from all of these lands by a high plateau?

    Ok Oolacile. The people of Oolacile were...what? Was Oolacile just another Kingdom with no racial difference to other parts of Lordran?

    New Londo. It was a city of humans at one point?

    And finally, Chester. Wtf. To me, he seems like he is something out of the 1700s in our history. If he is from really far in the future, what time is the chosen undead from?

    I am sorry to ask so many questions, but all of this drives me nuts.

    P.S.- If you wish to call me stupid for asking these things, please do so by private message. :oops:


    _________________
    "Atlas was permitted the opinion that he was at liberty, if he wished, to drop the Earth and creep away; but this opinion was all that he was permitted." ~ Franz Kafka



    PSN: IIdoneus
    avatar
    Pilgrim34
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 215
    Reputation : 7
    Join date : 2013-03-21
    Age : 26
    Location : UK

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Pilgrim34 on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:37 am

    You make some very good points there indeed, especially the one about Chester, which I had never noticed but now seems obvious now that you've mentioned it!

    Perhaps Chester is from a time much further in the future than any other character, but at the same time he clearly has some sort of agenda against the Chosen Undead due to the fact that he invades in the Township, not long after meeting him. Perhaps he is an agent/assassin for the Abyss to try and prevent the Chosen Undead from destroying Manus?

    I think that the most significant difference between the various kingdoms in the game is that Lordran is effectively an Undead realm whereas the other places seem to be inhabited by humans. Whether that makes them exist in a parallel universe I'm not sure, but perhaps it could be if Lordran may only be accessed by those in Undead form!


    _________________
    avatar
    DE5PA1R
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 460
    Reputation : 7
    Join date : 2012-11-26
    Location : Dallas, TX

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by DE5PA1R on Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:54 pm

    IIdoneus wrote:After playing Dark Souls for half a year now and beating it on three toons and going into NG+ and beyond, Lordran has become a sort of fixation for me. Despite this, there is so much I do not understand, that I feel I should understand. Is Lordran a land, a kingdom, a realm or a parallel universe?

    Races and countries also do not make sense to me. Zena, Carim, Catarina, Vinheim, the Great Swamp, the Far East, the Fivefinger River Delta, Thorolund, Balder, Berinike, and Astora. Are all of these in the same spatial location as Lordran, or are some located outside in a different dimension? Or is it just that Lordran is quartered off from all of these lands by a high plateau?

    Lordran is the Land of Lords and is therefore technically a Land. It's a geographic area that includes everywhere we go in the game.

    I'll be getting into fairly complex stuff, so put on your research cap. I highly recommend going to Ash Lake if you haven't already. In Norse mythology, every world was a branch of the tree Yggdrasil. This is common to both Souls games; underneath everything lies water and a beach, with great trees growing from beneath the surface. In Dark Souls, these trees are known as Archtrees. Archtrees sprout land or earth the same way normal trees sprout leaves. This is why we see roots when we get close to the bottom of Lordran (Blighttown swamp, Lost Izalith) and we see branches elsewhere.

    All the lands we hear of are branches of other Archtrees. We know this because Siegmeyer and Sieglinde are found at the Ash Lake bonfire when Sieglinde is guiding her father back to Catarina. So, hope that answers that.

    Ok Oolacile. The people of Oolacile were...what? Was Oolacile just another Kingdom with no racial difference to other parts of Lordran?

    Probably, but to the best of my knowledge unconfirmed.

    New Londo. It was a city of humans at one point?

    Yep.

    And finally, Chester. Wtf. To me, he seems like he is something out of the 1700s in our history. If he is from really far in the future, what time is the chosen undead from?

    There are theories that Chester is Arstor, Earl of Carim. I haven't seen evidence, but it's neat to think about.

    Chester seems like he's from the future in another land. He's most likely from Carim because his weapon (the Sniper Crossbow) is often used by warriors of Carim.

    Not sure about the time the Chosen Undead is from. Seems a bit irrelevant.

    I am sorry to ask so many questions, but all of this drives me nuts.

    P.S.- If you wish to call me stupid for asking these things, please do so by private message. :oops:

    Psh. Just hope I could help.


    _________________
    Vids: youtube.com/de5pa1r

    Articles: medium.com/@de5pa1r

    Tweets: twitter.com/de5pa1r
    avatar
    IIdoneus
    Addicted
    Addicted

    Posts : 252
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2012-12-09
    Location : Here but there. In all places, yet only a few locations.

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by IIdoneus on Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:20 pm

    DE5PA1R wrote:
    IIdoneus wrote:After playing Dark Souls for half a year now and beating it on three toons and going into NG+ and beyond, Lordran has become a sort of fixation for me. Despite this, there is so much I do not understand, that I feel I should understand. Is Lordran a land, a kingdom, a realm or a parallel universe?

    Races and countries also do not make sense to me. Zena, Carim, Catarina, Vinheim, the Great Swamp, the Far East, the Fivefinger River Delta, Thorolund, Balder, Berinike, and Astora. Are all of these in the same spatial location as Lordran, or are some located outside in a different dimension? Or is it just that Lordran is quartered off from all of these lands by a high plateau?

    Lordran is the Land of Lords and is therefore technically a Land. It's a geographic area that includes everywhere we go in the game.

    I'll be getting into fairly complex stuff, so put on your research cap. I highly recommend going to Ash Lake if you haven't already. In Norse mythology, every world was a branch of the tree Yggdrasil. This is common to both Souls games; underneath everything lies water and a beach, with great trees growing from beneath the surface. In Dark Souls, these trees are known as Archtrees. Archtrees sprout land or earth the same way normal trees sprout leaves. This is why we see roots when we get close to the bottom of Lordran (Blighttown swamp, Lost Izalith) and we see branches elsewhere.

    All the lands we hear of are branches of other Archtrees. We know this because Siegmeyer and Sieglinde are found at the Ash Lake bonfire when Sieglinde is guiding her father back to Catarina. So, hope that answers that.



    Psh. Just hope I could help.

    Actually, I am very familiar with Norse Mythology so this really helped! I never thought of drawing that connection, but now that you have, I understand everything.

    Except for Oolacile. That one still baffles me. Oh well! Thanks!


    _________________
    "Atlas was permitted the opinion that he was at liberty, if he wished, to drop the Earth and creep away; but this opinion was all that he was permitted." ~ Franz Kafka



    PSN: IIdoneus
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Shkar on Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:07 pm

    It is highly unlikely that Chester is from a period of time after the main storyline, as that would detract from the whole "fate of the world" choice at the end.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    Hue
    Insomniac
    Insomniac

    Posts : 1488
    Reputation : 31
    Join date : 2012-12-23
    Age : 19
    Location : Killing the chat

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Hue on Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:45 pm

    He could be from the future, or from a distant land where suits, top hats and throwing flowers are normal.


    _________________
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    Spoiler:
    [i]Huehuehue.[/i]
    avatar
    Paragon
    Obsessed
    Obsessed

    Posts : 457
    Reputation : 34
    Join date : 2013-02-24
    Age : 23
    Location : Everywhere there is evil to be fought!

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Paragon on Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:59 am

    Chester is actually an easter egg referencing the Fat Official enemy from Demon's Souls. Also based on his dialogue it is extremely likely that he is from the same time period as the chosen undead. As to his attire, I just chalk it up to Chester being ahead of his time in the fashion department.

    Edit: Dat Chester Swagg


    _________________
    Messengers of Velka

    "Prepare to get Mike Tyson'd, Sinner"
    avatar
    Scurrilous Straggler
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 72
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2013-04-17
    Location : UK

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Scurrilous Straggler on Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:24 pm

    Well, we don't really know what the common or aristocratic dress of your casual Carimian would be so Chester could be wearing pretty normal clothing for his area. Or any area really. We don't have much sense of the dress styles of any location... just warriours, mages, clerics, paladins... these are all uniforms rather than casual clothing.


    _________________
    ===

    Do you even praise the sun?
    GWL & 360: MythosEngineer / Steam: Scurrilous Straggler
    avatar
    Hallsey
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 38
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-02-02
    Age : 22
    Location : Top of Sens Fortress

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Hallsey on Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:29 pm

    Chester can very well be called an abstract character in my opinion. In terms of his motives for attacking the chosen undead. I think he simply does it just for the sake of killing you. It may be a fairly borring reason however with a lack of evidence, its really hard to say what his reasons are. His motives for killing you could be of that being the same as lautrec killing anastashia the bonefire keeper of firelink shrine in a way.(sorry for spelling). Some would say he killed for the sake of offering her soul to Carims deity. (name escapes me). but i digress, Unless from soft themselves give out more facts whitch is not gonna happen, theirs no telling what chesters motives are.


    _________________
    "You done goofed"

    xboxGT : Livid Crim
    avatar
    Scurrilous Straggler
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 72
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2013-04-17
    Location : UK

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Scurrilous Straggler on Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:52 pm

    After I initially talked to Chester, he seemed incredibly bored. Being a sniper, I'd bet he was just aching for some sport again. I don't know how long he's been trapped there, but at his position he seems as though he's managed the difficulties of the Royal Wood so he's rather skilled... and he lugs around that sexy sniper. Along with the skills he uses against you, both as a dark spirit and if you attack him, I would bet he just wants some sport and you are the only one who's come this far in a long time. I doubt his reasons are malevolent beyond that he's just so very bored. But I could be wrong... we have so very little information on him.


    _________________
    ===

    Do you even praise the sun?
    GWL & 360: MythosEngineer / Steam: Scurrilous Straggler
    avatar
    Hallsey
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 38
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-02-02
    Age : 22
    Location : Top of Sens Fortress

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Hallsey on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:01 pm

    Scurrilous Straggler wrote:After I initially talked to Chester, he seemed incredibly bored. Being a sniper, I'd bet he was just aching for some sport again. I don't know how long he's been trapped there, but at his position he seems as though he's managed the difficulties of the Royal Wood so he's rather skilled... and he lugs around that sexy sniper. Along with the skills he uses against you, both as a dark spirit and if you attack him, I would bet he just wants some sport and you are the only one who's come this far in a long time. I doubt his reasons are malevolent beyond that he's just so very bored. But I could be wrong... we have so very little information on him.

    Agreed, such little information on him. yet thats part of the reason why i love him as a character so much. "The Mad Hatter Trapped in Time!" so to speak


    _________________
    "You done goofed"

    xboxGT : Livid Crim
    avatar
    Scurrilous Straggler
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 72
    Reputation : 3
    Join date : 2013-04-17
    Location : UK

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Scurrilous Straggler on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:14 pm

    Yea, I made a character just based around getting that armour and being a mad sniper lol. Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.


    _________________
    ===

    Do you even praise the sun?
    GWL & 360: MythosEngineer / Steam: Scurrilous Straggler
    avatar
    Hallsey
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 38
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-02-02
    Age : 22
    Location : Top of Sens Fortress

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Hallsey on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:15 pm

    On the topic of time, Solaire himself says similairly that time in lordran is obscurred and irelevent. the multiplayer system with the AI is a perfect example. your able to summon iron tarkus for the golem fight even though he dies later in anor londo in the painting room.
    another example being that your able to summon solaire for the incounter against gwyn even after him dying by your hands in the lost izalith. (that is if you followed his story arc.)
    Lastly i like to think that lordran is not a seperate dimension or anything from the rest of the world. Its simply isolated and cut off from the rest of the world. Thus in game being called the land of the undead. Hardly no actual living things in lordran simply being that the land is so inhospitable. people reseving the undead curse and then travel their themselves such as seigmeyer; or are simply cast away to the darkend lands called Lordran such as the prestess and her campanions.


    _________________
    "You done goofed"

    xboxGT : Livid Crim
    avatar
    Hallsey
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 38
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-02-02
    Age : 22
    Location : Top of Sens Fortress

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Hallsey on Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:18 pm

    [quote="Scurrilous Straggler"]Yea, I made a character just based around getting that armour and being a mad sniper lol. Anyway, sorry for derailing the thread.[/quote

    its all cool. im sure with chester being the Bad A** he is. a little off topic comments are nothing to grief about.


    _________________
    "You done goofed"

    xboxGT : Livid Crim
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 12:26 am

    Hallsey wrote:On the topic of time, Solaire himself says similairly that time in lordran is obscurred and irelevent. the multiplayer system with the AI is a perfect example. your able to summon iron tarkus for the golem fight even though he dies later in anor londo in the painting room.
    another example being that your able to summon solaire for the incounter against gwyn even after him dying by your hands in the lost izalith. (that is if you followed his story arc.)
    Lastly i like to think that lordran is not a seperate dimension or anything from the rest of the world. Its simply isolated and cut off from the rest of the world. Thus in game being called the land of the undead. Hardly no actual living things in lordran simply being that the land is so inhospitable. people reseving the undead curse and then travel their themselves such as seigmeyer; or are simply cast away to the darkend lands called Lordran such as the prestess and her campanions.

    Solaire obviously isn't the most sane individual; heck, when Patches says someone has issues, they probably do. There is no evidence that we should trust his theories on space-time just because he said so. He also is not able to be summoned to fight Gwyn unless you go out of your way to SAVE him; this actually supports his theory being nonsense, as it wouldn't matter if time was that FUBARed.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    Hallsey
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 38
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-02-02
    Age : 22
    Location : Top of Sens Fortress

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Hallsey on Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:43 pm

    Shkar wrote:
    Hallsey wrote:On the topic of time, Solaire himself says similairly that time in lordran is obscurred and irelevent. the multiplayer system with the AI is a perfect example. your able to summon iron tarkus for the golem fight even though he dies later in anor londo in the painting room.
    another example being that your able to summon solaire for the incounter against gwyn even after him dying by your hands in the lost izalith. (that is if you followed his story arc.)
    Lastly i like to think that lordran is not a seperate dimension or anything from the rest of the world. Its simply isolated and cut off from the rest of the world. Thus in game being called the land of the undead. Hardly no actual living things in lordran simply being that the land is so inhospitable. people reseving the undead curse and then travel their themselves such as seigmeyer; or are simply cast away to the darkend lands called Lordran such as the prestess and her campanions.

    Solaire obviously isn't the most sane individual; heck, when Patches says someone has issues, they probably do. There is no evidence that we should trust his theories on space-time just because he said so. He also is not able to be summoned to fight Gwyn unless you go out of your way to SAVE him; this actually supports his theory being nonsense, as it wouldn't matter if time was that FUBARed.

    saying that solaire isnt most sane person can very well go for most and perhaps any character in dark souls. Lordran being the land that it is, things such as sanity dont have much of a place their. however i will agree with you on the part involving solaires character arc. you cant summon for gwyn unless you save him.that detail actually did slip my mind.
    But i still think iron tarkus's involvment still proves my opinion. finding his sign outside the iron golem fight even being dead in anor londo is just to much of a break for me to just say its "game design"...


    _________________
    "You done goofed"

    xboxGT : Livid Crim
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:03 pm

    Who's to say he didn't progress past roughly the same time you did, only to get killed bh the painting guardians? We find Beatrices body in the Valley if you summon her agaisnt the four kings, despite there being noreal threat there.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic
    avatar
    Hallsey
    Casual
    Casual

    Posts : 38
    Reputation : 1
    Join date : 2013-02-02
    Age : 22
    Location : Top of Sens Fortress

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Hallsey on Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:24 pm

    Shkar wrote:Who's to say he didn't progress past roughly the same time you did, only to get killed bh the painting guardians? We find Beatrices body in the Valley if you summon her agaisnt the four kings, despite there being noreal threat there.
    Yes indeed becuase the Valley of !DRAKES! is such a non hostile place. lol, i kidd. But say that that your right, then wouldnt that mean iron tarkus's sign would have dissapeard after his death in anor londo. the fact that you can still summon his spirt to battle even being dead shows that their isnt something quite right with time in Lordran.
    in demon souls the events leading up to the old ones return seperates balateria from the rest of the world. I know that both games arent related in any way, but who's not to say that something similar in terms of events such as the first flame or the spreading of the abyss itself isnt causing the distortion of reality or time in Lordran.


    _________________
    "You done goofed"

    xboxGT : Livid Crim
    avatar
    Shkar
    Revived
    Revived

    Posts : 2657
    Reputation : 101
    Join date : 2012-03-18

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Shkar on Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:00 pm

    Hallsey wrote:
    Shkar wrote:Who's to say he didn't progress past roughly the same time you did, only to get killed bh the painting guardians? We find Beatrices body in the Valley if you summon her agaisnt the four kings, despite there being noreal threat there.
    Yes indeed becuase the Valley of !DRAKES! is such a non hostile place. lol, i kidd. But say that that your right, then wouldnt that mean iron tarkus's sign would have dissapeard after his death in anor londo. the fact that you can still summon his spirt to battle even being dead shows that their isnt something quite right with time in Lordran.
    in demon souls the events leading up to the old ones return seperates balateria from the rest of the world. I know that both games arent related in any way, but who's not to say that something similar in terms of events such as the first flame or the spreading of the abyss itself isnt causing the distortion of reality or time in Lordran.

    Tarkus is alive when you summon him. There's evidence to suggest that, (aside from player-to-player for gameplay reasons) getting summoned to kill a boss kills that boss in your world.

    After all, Lautrec has no real reason to try to help people; we see him mercilessly slaughtering people in Anor Londo, after all. So we help Tarkus kill the golem and vice versa. We both go into Anor Londo.

    We go to the painting at some point and find him dead. He was a good fighter; great, even. But in combat, just a slight mistake or failure to notice something can mean death.

    Hell, people who have played this game should know that better than most.


    _________________
    XBL GT: DeadlyHeretic

    Sponsored content

    Re: Space-Time Metaphysics of Lordran

    Post by Sponsored content


      Current date/time is Fri Aug 18, 2017 3:58 am