Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

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    Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:12 am

    Making this so we stop derailing other threads.
    Greedo shot first,COME AT ME BRO.


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:20 am

    I know that in certain media, Force Users are shown as being a lot more balanced with ways to counter them. However often in games, the TV Show for Kids which I like to pretend doesn't exist, and the prequels they treat force users like mini-gods.

    It's one of the reasons why I loved the Thrawn Trilogy, they introduced was to counter force users which are very effective. And the Vong, another example of enemies that are really great against Jedi, and well trained soldiers actually could fight the Vong better than the Jedi. Except when Luke Skywalker was in Jesus King of the Force mode.
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:22 am

    They don't often see far into the future no, but brief (maby a second or 2) flashes and warnings are common, especially in combat. Further, that there is a startup is exactly why a competent jedi wouldn't attempt to throw you in close combat, they can just use ataru to cut you in half, being faster and stronger than you anyways, and further augmented by the force there is little to no chance of you winning. Thats why the sith used squads, or droids (who's minds can't be read.)

    And yeah, jedi read minds. They don't often go further than surface thoughts, so it can be fooled or blocked, but they do indeed read minds, which makes surprising them difficult.


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:31 am

    Usually they don't read minds per see, it's more so that they feel intent around them.

    So they'll sense if you want to harm them, or try to read what you'll be doing in a moment.

    And yeah the seeing the future thing is pretty ridiculous, apparently that's how they are such good fighters and can do all their crazy stunts. It's explained that that, as Forum said, they see a few seconds into the future and know exactly where to block.

    I liked it better when you just see a big guy in a mask trying to fight some unskilled farmhand.
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:34 am

    I'm more with Tolvo on the subject.I blatantly refuse the crap where Jedi are gods,it makes all non-movie/Force Unleashed stuff look like a different thing altogether.
    I haven't seen every Star Wars cartoon or comic but I have played many of the games and read a bit of the lore.In all of that,it is heavily implied that being a Jedi or Sith does not give such a massive advantage over normal people as the movies do.Stuff like vibroblades actually let skilled melee fighters kill Jedi in close quarters.
    I'm not saying just anyone could kill one but it was a feat more related to skill and quick thinking than a simple one sided Jedi rapes everthing so don't bother match.
    I still say they don't see what people ae going to do,I'm pretty sure there was somewhere where they say blocking blasting fire and lightsabers/swords was a matter of observing your opponent's stance.


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Virulas on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:39 am

    a star wars thread? finally, i may not be able to argue with you guys but its good to see that star wars is getting some respect.


    sorry, grew up with star wars lol


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:46 am

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Force_Empathy

    I'm not saying the jedi are demigods, I'm saying non jedi stand little to no chance of winning a straight up 1v1 fight. fully trained Jedi are faster, stronger, have a wide array of force abilities and can reliably know your actions before you make the move (though not far in advance).

    "He sees things before they happen, its why he appears to have such quick reflexes. Its an old jedi trick"- Qui Gon Jin

    If you don't posess extraordinary willpower, training to fool that technique, or a way of circumventing it (like the force draining lizards) you stand little to no chance. Even if you do, winning a 1v1 isn't likely. Some can. Bobba fett did. Atton did. but these people are less common than the jedi themselves in most of the universe history


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:56 am

    The article lists two Jedi that could predict actions by using the force as a sense.Read the article on that wiki for the lightsaber stance;Soresu.It mentions keeping your saber moving,parrying attacks,observing your opponent's technique until you can predict what they will do while wearing them down in a fight.
    The below article explains that ordinary people were perfectly capable of killing or capturing Jedi by pure strategy or skill.
    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jedi_hunter


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:00 am

    Actually if you want a better example, I'd suggest reading this.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knighthunters
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:12 am

    Tolvo wrote:Actually if you want a better example, I'd suggest reading this.

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Knighthunters
    I already have but it probably does fit better with my original Soldier VS Jedi statement.
    I do have a question though,in the MMO,do soldiers work well against Jedi?Asking out of interest,my PC can't run the game.


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:15 am

    http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Precognition


    And as I said possible, but not likely. These people are rare and terrifying examples of soldiers/mercenaries, way beyond anything most soldiers are capable of. Notice even such highly trained individuals as knight hunters were sent in detachments (eg groups) to handle jedi.

    On the whole, a jedi is worth a couple soldiers in open combat. 1 guy with a blaster is rarely going to win such an encounter. One has to circumvent or overwhelm the physical force based abilitys (eg focus fire, mental resistance training ect)

    I'm sure reading body language is part of it, and it surely augments their ability to see the future with the force. That doesn't negate the inherent and very large advantage of future sight possessed by the jedi.


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:16 am

    And yes they do. in the game, all classes are about even, so everyone picks jedi/sith for the lightsabers. (I'm a fan of the vanguard)


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:21 am

    I never really got into the PvP Scene, what I saw was that for the most part Jedi Classes were really broken, though I only played at release.

    Basically the Sith Inquisitor and Jedi Consular would kill everyone, they would CC everything around them while dealing massive damage, healing themselves when it was needed to be done while also having great escapes. I'm not sure if that ever got fixed or not, but early on the Force Users were incredibly powerful.

    I know faction wise that game was beyond broken, Imperial way outnumbered Republic on nearly every server. I'm not sure what it is now, but back when I played something between 70 to 80 percent of players were Imperial. With how there are open battlegrounds which are required for certain quests, it makes it so that if you play Republic you'll essentially get locked out of said quests since the Imperial Presence is so powerful you'd get killed within minutes of just being on the planet by twenty Sith ganging up on you.
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:32 am

    Who on earth would take on a Jedi with just a blaster?
    I think you are relying too much on the whole optimal Jedi/demi-god thing versus an idiot with a gun.
    If we went that way,we'd have the dude from the Force Unleashed dropping start destroyers every five minutes.Who could beat that?When an army of clones kill tens of thousands of Jedi over a few months,you can't really rely on that argument.
    I'm glad the classes are even because that's how it really is.A Jedi is just a powerful warrior with a plasma sword and a few fancy psychic tricks.They can be beaten,not by an idiot with a blaster but by a guy with the right equipment and rigorous training.I'd have chosen a Republic Trooper or Sith employed Bounty Hunter over any lightsaber user.And I'd own me some Jedi or Sith,not by brute force but by playing to my advantages,they couldn't block my flamethrower or grenades,using a blaster would be moronic.


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:40 am

    I played an Imperial Agent, though I just couldn't bring myself to playing a Chiss because of how weird that lore was. I love the Chiss, but they felt really roped in for no reason. Frankly I don't know what Bioware was doing with some of that stuff. It wasn't up until pretty close to release that they let Sith be inquisitors, meaning a Pureblood Sith could only be a Warrior.

    "Well the Sith look down on everyone else and enslave other races, so they would have no Sith slaves."

    ********, the Sith had Sith slaves back in the time of Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos, etc. Not to mention there are the Kissai, the Sith Priests which use Sith Alchemy. Or the original Sith Sorcerers, but no, the story is a slave. So apparently players can't become a true Sith Lord, at least that was their view until close to release.

    There are a lot of things in that game which really made me ask what the hell they were thinking, like Revan.
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:45 am

    Is Revan in that game!? If so...


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:47 am

    Spoilers about Revan.

    Spoiler:
    Revan is in game, as is hinted in the novel Revan. He is a prisoner of the Emperor kept alive for well beyond his natural life. As the Republic at the end of a raid/dungeon, you rescue him. He says like three lines then runs away. As the Empire, you go through a four man instance, fight HK, then defeat Revan at the end. He says a few words, then seemingly dies. So far that is his canon death.
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:51 am

    Yeah, but stealthers will drop the sages/inquisitors in a heart beat and a grenerally stomped by tanks, who lose to sages. Its circular, but I can see sages bein OP as hell in PvE. No stealthers to kill them.


    The soldiers were also several times the number of jedi. They numbered in the millions. At least 5 million. There are a couple thousand jedi. Even at a 3:1 ratio you lose less than 1/10th of your army.

    Blasters are unambiguously superior to sonic weapons, thus are often the only type around, flame throwers/grenades have extremely limited ammo capaceties, and very very few people had the training to handle a jedi/sith in melee combat, and even then it took long term, specialised, and dangerous training to get there. Mandalorians killed lots of jedi, with just that (and absolutely ridiculous armor)

    I'm not arguing they're demi gods. I never was. I hate what lucas has done to the universe. They're still way above what most soldiers can manage.


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:54 am

    "They're keepers of the peace."

    You know what, I can get a Jedi Purge now. It's like gun laws, but people that if unchecked are capable of killing people with literally zero chances of linking them to said murder. Seriously, "Well his neck snapped and he was shocked to death, by the force...No fingerprints though or anything, uhh..."

    I suppose it's like having people loose in the public carrying grenades.
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:55 am

    For the love of God.I'd have preferred he just stayed mysteriously gone like you find in KoTOR 2.
    I hate when they drag in random popular characters for no reason.I'm sure there's also an instance where you fight Vader in the future. :suspect:


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:57 am

    That's in Star Wars TFU. silly

    If I remember correctly, in Star Wars Galaxies, the older MMO, Vader was actually invincible and would one shot you. If I remember correctly, emoting that you slap him would cause him to kill you, or using negative emotions.

    Though it was great how if you got a high imperial rank, you could slap stormtroopers and lesser officers. They'd then cower and thank you and say they'll do better next time.

    That's in a freaking MMO.
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:00 am

    I tried Galaxies a year or two back.It was a giant,useless mess of a game with nobody online.I gave up before finishing the intro. :|


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:04 am

    Yeah that game got royally screwed up, essentially they tried to turn it into a WoW Clone, when that happened they lost something like eighty percent of their subscribers.

    SWG was never really about the gameplay, but about the immersion. You could buy houses, furnish, there were various roleplay options, renaming of objects, setting up of bases with costume choices.

    Cross Faction speech was always possible, and you could go to any city. It was great, Jedi were rare since it was after order 66, and you could bounty hunt, do anything really.

    It had no classes, you chose skills to level up and when you leveled up enough you couldn't anymore. So, you could be a melee martial artist with medical knowledge, or basically create hybrids that were effective of various kinds.

    Like real characters in the world, it was awesome.

    Then they introduced a class system, streamlined it all and tried to make it like WoW.

    I miss the political system in the game and how guilds could go to war, and had actual votes for the Guild Leader. Your guild leader was chosen by the voters.
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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:09 am

    That sounds great on paper but to me,it felt like a technical mess.I still play PS1 era games sometimes and I think it was dated as hell.At least WoW has a little bit of quality to it.Galaxies was ugly,hard to play,impossible to find interesting and just felt wrong.I may have been quick to judge but I just plain didn't like the 20 minutes I played.


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    Re: Star Wars Fanboy Argument Thread

    Post by Tolvo on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:11 am

    You didn't play the original version, you played it when it was a **** WoW clone. Before that it was more so about feeling in the world than just doing the grindy quests. But afterwards, all that was left was the grindy quests.

    If you played two years ago there is no way you played the original version of it.

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