Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

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    Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Shindori on Wed Apr 03, 2013 5:52 am

    Which is the better of the two?
    Now please, before you post, take other people's responses and points of view into consideration, and please respect each others opinions.

    Now frankly.. I consider the Bandit's Knife to be better, and here's why.

    The Dark Silver Tracer has an S scaling with Dex, 160 critical and toxic effect. Pretty good right?
    Weeell..I see a few problems with that. For one, Toxic is a DoT (Damage over Time) ability. While yes, it's pretty good, it's curable in an instant, and doesn't do that much damage at once. Also, the 160 critical is good, yes, and when paired with the hornet ring and even power within, it makes for some scary good damage, probably one hit kill or close to that anyone on PVP. But.. those are the only two things that can buff it.

    Now let's take a look at the Bandit's knife.
    the bandit's knife has an E scaling in Str and an A in Dex when fully upgraded. This alone makes it hit harder per swing than the Dark silver Tracer, seeing as it receives bonuses from TWO parameters, not just one. I know, seems an S scaling should do more, but two bonuses are better than one, right? Next up is its aux effect: Bleed. while it doesn't stack as fast as toxic, once it finally DOES stack, it shaves off a substantial amount of health. finally, we have the critical: 147. Less than the DST, of course... and even when buffed with hornet ring and power within, it probably still does less... but what about a third buff? This is what seals the deal for me. the weapon itself can be buffed. Slap some sunlight blade onto the knife, and the damage becomes a force to be reckoned with. Land a parry while wearing a hornet ring and the other character is history. I know what you might be thinking. "But Juan, that would be for a hybrid build. what about a pure Dex build?" Some resin still does the trick. Not only that but try this: Bandit's knife +15 with poison pine resin. You're stacking to effects at once. And every dex build needs a bit of strength, which the knife will benefit from. Especially if you plan on ever wielding a bow.

    so.. what do you guys think?


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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by VaDoom on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:20 am

    I think it depends how you wish to use the weapon.
    I almost always use DST as a backup weapon. I menu swap one of my weapon with it (Generaly a bow, and switch a ring with hornet) when I'm facing annoying turtlers, R1 spammers or "bad" estus drinkers.
    In this case, I might just not have the time to buff a bandit knife.
    If you center your build on buffs, yes, the bandit knife might be a better choice. It's also better for elemental builds.
    I'm not to sure about bleed. I seem to be able to roll through it most of the time. My opponents do the same. But yes, that definitely can be usefull, in a stunlock combo for exemple. But a stunlock won't happen often with a dagger.


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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Ghadis_God on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:12 am

    Don't say "two scaling stats are better than one", it's reductionist and idiotic. Look at mugenmonkey to see which one has better AR with different stats, because that's all that matters in the end. (FYI, the Bandit's knife has a few extra points of AR with any stat spread, the DST scales with Str as well, and the DST still wins in unbuffed BS damage despite 15-20 fewer AR) Second of all, toxic is meant to reduce enemy stamina recovery on one hand, and set up a BS or something nastier for when they cure it, you don't activate it and say "well that's a few extra points of damage". DST still wins for a pure Dex imo because I don't want to farm a slab just for a dagger when there are 10 better weapons I could be spending it on. I can just buy twink and get Max AR on the DST, which I guarantee will outdamage a +14. In other words, a buff for a hybrid or Enchanted/Occult path for a pure magic build puts the Bandit's knife ahead, but pure Dex still favors the DST because daggers are swap weapons unless you're a cheap d-bag.


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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Automancer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:16 am

    Let's get this straight. Just cuz it has scaling with two stats doesn't make it a quality weapon.

    If a weapon doesn't have quality scaling with separate stats, comparing it with another is redundant. E/A over a pure S? Hmmm, you might wanna re-evaluate that assumption.

    I would honestly choose the Bandit's Knife too because it can go elemental and doesn't need as much investment as the DST. Oh, it can bleed and be buffed too.

    Pure critical damage, the DST wins hands down and with an S scaling, it's top tier.


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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by User1 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:38 am

    Automancer wrote:



    I would honestly choose the Bandit's Knife too because it can go elemental and doesn't need as much investment as the DST. Oh, it can bleed and be buffed too.

    Pure critical damage, the DST wins hands down and with an S scaling, it's top tier.
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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by lonewolf on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:54 am

    i prefer the DST becouse of the moveset and critical dmg.
    plus scaling.


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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Marino. on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:15 am

    Toxic and Bleed are nothing but gimmicks for PVP

    Bleed is pretty much useless in PVP, everyone knows how to Bleed Dodge .
    DSS R2 is slow and easy to Parry, in case you didn't know DSS Toxic effect is caused by the R2 attack only .


    If you're using either of the two you use them for Backstabs and Ripostes and DSS deals higher Damage so it wins .
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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Automancer on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:31 am

    Marino. wrote:Bleed is pretty much useless in PVP, everyone knows how to Bleed Dodge.

    No.


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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:22 am

    Ghadis_God wrote:... (FYI, the Bandit's knife has a few extra points of AR with any stat spread, the DST scales with Str as well, and the DST still wins in unbuffed BS damage despite 15-20 fewer AR)....

    Well, you just proved the op right. Two scalers are better than one a lot of times. That’s all he said, nothing more, nothing less. As a matter of fact, the op even forms this statement in a question, which inherently makes him NOT ignorant….unlike your statements. Its far from an idiotic statement. It was merely an observation on the part of the op….you were obviously “reactionary” by your evaluation, and not comprehensive.

    Automancer wrote:...Let's get this straight. Just cuz it has scaling with two stats doesn't make it a quality weapon...

    Straight with who?!?! Op did not state “quality” at all. Good job getting straight with yourself though.

    Marino. wrote:Toxic and Bleed are nothing but gimmicks for PVP

    Bleed is pretty much useless in PVP, everyone knows how to Bleed Dodge .
    DSS R2 is slow and easy to Parry, in case you didn't know DSS Toxic effect is caused by the R2 attack only .


    If you're using either of the two you use them for Backstabs and Ripostes and DSS deals higher Damage so it wins .

    Toxic is not gimmicky if you can inflict it and your opponent is horrible at inventory management and does not have the blooming clumps equipped. Otherwise you're right. The only time toxic or poison causes me problems is when the opponent knows I'm goingto moss, and uses that for a set up.

    Bleed is…”ify”. I’ve rolled through bleed several times, but I’ve also had “lag-bleedouts”, and I’ve found it is possible to set up the roll cancel to work towards your advantage. However, this takes some pyro, and usually a bleed weapon with more poise damage.


    IMO the Bandits Knife is far better. The loss in crit is hardly anything to scoff at true, but if you need 1500 out of a backstab to win....you have several other problems with pvp imo.

    A Bandits Knife with DMB, or CMW can be deadly. Even if you get a few "slice and roll" moves in, dont play carelessly and get parried, you'll still get enough bs damage out of the Bandit's Knife to make it just as viable.

    Which one is better?...depends on your playstyle.

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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by User1 on Wed Apr 03, 2013 12:57 pm

    Completely agreed with Animaaal.

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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Marino. on Wed Apr 03, 2013 3:30 pm

    Automancer wrote:
    Marino. wrote:Bleed is pretty much useless in PVP, everyone knows how to Bleed Dodge.

    No.

    I did it while not noticing .
    In fact i never knew what Bleed did until i got stunlocked by a Katana silly .

    Animaaal wrote:
    Toxic is not gimmicky if you can inflict it and your opponent is horrible at inventory management and does not have the blooming clumps equipped. Otherwise you're right. The only time toxic or poison causes me problems is when the opponent knows I'm goingto moss, and uses that for a set up.

    Bleed is…”ify”. I’ve rolled through bleed several times, but I’ve also had “lag-bleedouts”, and I’ve found it is possible to set up the roll cancel to work towards your advantage. However, this takes some pyro, and usually a bleed weapon with more poise damage.

    Still, the R2 from the DST sucks but otherwise i agree .

    About Bleeding .
    Thats a normal PVP technique it's called "Bleed Dodge" basicly you Roll when the hit that would fill your Bleed Meter fully up and cancel the Damage that way .
    The Invincibility take the Hit for you because Darks Status System sucks balls .


    A Bandits Knife with DMB, or CMW can be deadly. Even if you get a few "slice and roll" moves in, dont play carelessly and get parried, you'll still get enough bs damage out of the Bandit's Knife to make it just as viable.

    Which one is better?...depends on your playstyle.

    I do think that the DST is better .
    For one thing the Buff for the BK is a huge giveaway to what you plan .
    If i see a buffed BK i know you're fishing for a BS or you want to Combo me to death so i avoid you like crazy .

    While you can still have a Surprise effect with the DST by switching to it and then fish for a BS while doing a bit less Damage than a buffed BK and as you put it :
    "if you need 1500 out of a backstab to win....you have several other problems with pvp imo."
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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by billy_bayonet on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:24 pm

    Care to fight me while i use the DST and see how long you last marino winking


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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:29 pm

    Marino. wrote:...Thats a normal PVP technique it's called "Bleed Dodge"...

    Fo sho lol, that’s what I meant by set-ups. If their meter is almost full and I can tell, I’ll bait them into a Black Flame as fast as I can so that I can finsh the job while their poise is broke. It doesn’t work all the time, but it does screw over someone relying on it to avoid a bleed out. They do have to roll for it to work lol.

    Marino. wrote:...For one thing the Buff for the BK is a huge giveaway to what you plan .
    If i see a buffed BK i know you're fishing for a BS or you want to Combo me to death so i avoid you like crazy ...

    That’s not the only reason to buff it, and that’s not always my personal plan at all. As long as you are in and out with 2 or 3 hits and try to change it up, it’s a hard weapon to parry. REALLY hard to “sight” parry for sure.

    The buff is just a bonus to me. But if you’re going to backstab only with a dagger, then the DST is prolly for you.
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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by SpecialNewb on Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:32 pm

    Marino. wrote:I did it while not noticing .
    In fact i never knew what Bleed did until i got stunlocked by a Katana silly .
    Awesome. Kudos to your skill/talent. I usually can't do bleed cancel right and just bleed out. One of my main characters being a katana user I cause a lot of bleed outs to others in PvP as well.

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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Marino. on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:43 pm

    billy_bayonet wrote:Care to fight me while i use the DST and see how long you last marino winking

    Careful, i might take you up on that one :cyclops:

    Animaaal wrote:
    Marino. wrote:...Thats a normal PVP technique it's called "Bleed Dodge"...

    Fo sho lol, that’s what I meant by set-ups. If their meter is almost full and I can tell, I’ll bait them into a Black Flame as fast as I can so that I can finsh the job while their poise is broke. It doesn’t work all the time, but it does screw over someone relying on it to avoid a bleed out. They do have to roll for it to work lol.

    Nice, i steal this Strategy from you if you don't mind silly

    Marino. wrote:...For one thing the Buff for the BK is a huge giveaway to what you plan .
    If i see a buffed BK i know you're fishing for a BS or you want to Combo me to death so i avoid you like crazy ...

    That’s not the only reason to buff it, and that’s not always my personal plan at all. As long as you are in and out with 2 or 3 hits and try to change it up, it’s a hard weapon to parry. REALLY hard to “sight” parry for sure.

    I thought we were discussing what the better Weapon was ? lol
    You can make every Weapon work in PVP and i was just generalizing .
    Of course you can always play Mind Games happy

    The buff is just a bonus to me. But if you’re going to backstab only with a dagger, then the DST is prolly for you.

    Pffft .
    Who needs Backstabs ?
    I use Bonewheel Shields, Backstabs are for
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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Marino. on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:46 pm

    SpecialNewb wrote:
    Marino. wrote:I did it while not noticing .
    In fact i never knew what Bleed did until i got stunlocked by a Katana silly .
    Awesome. Kudos to your skill/talent. I usually can't do bleed cancel right and just bleed out. One of my main characters being a katana user I cause a lot of bleed outs to others in PvP as well.

    It probably had to do with the fact that i played Demons Souls since day one and was already experienced with the Souls Gameplay .

    Bleeding in Demons was essentially like Poison, it did Damage over Time .
    So it was a pretty big Surprise to me to see 1/3 of my life just poof away like that lol!
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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Dibsville on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:47 pm

    Dark Silver Tracer is only better for backstabs and parries, otherwise Bandit's Knife all day.
    Bleed>Toxic


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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by SpecialNewb on Wed Apr 03, 2013 7:58 pm

    Marino. wrote:It probably had to do with the fact that i played Demons Souls since day one and was already experienced with the Souls Gameplay .

    Bleeding in Demons was essentially like Poison, it did Damage over Time .
    So it was a pretty big Surprise to me to see 1/3 of my life just poof away like that lol!
    I get surprised the other way since I played Dark Souls first. It's a very nice surprise to not suddenly lose hundreds of HP! Must be rough the other way. big grin

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    Re: Bandit's Knife vs Dark Silver Tracer

    Post by Animaaal on Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:59 pm

    Marino. wrote:
    Animaaal wrote:
    Marino. wrote:...Thats a normal PVP technique it's called "Bleed Dodge"...

    Fo sho lol, that’s what I meant by set-ups. If their meter is almost full and I can tell, I’ll bait them into a Black Flame as fast as I can so that I can finsh the job while their poise is broke. It doesn’t work all the time, but it does screw over someone relying on it to avoid a bleed out. They do have to roll for it to work lol.

    Nice, i steal this Strategy from you if you don't mind silly ...

    I hereby proclaim this as: "The Animaaal Anti-Anticoagulant Technique".

    I have not perfected it, I have not tested which weapon it works best with...but my new name for it sounds <3 and I claim it free for all to use!!! Bow

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