A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

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    Will you use this new "bbg?"

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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by nsane32 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:00 pm

    I agree with animal the game was great by itself it doesnt need any improvements or changes and to be dedicated to the forums you dont have to be in events you just need to support the forums Im still on here even tho I havent played Dark Souls in awhile


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:30 pm

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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by EeAyEss on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:33 pm

    I can see that this is going nowhere, quickly. Mods, shut this thread down, please.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Soris Ice Goldwing on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:35 pm

    Enough of this flame arguing. Lock it!


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by User1 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:39 pm

    Set this thread on fire as those two did.

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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:39 pm

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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by GrinTwist on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:40 pm

    A new bottomless box glitch? I might use it to get back into PVP. It'll make things easier for me to make some more SL 55 builds.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Dibsville on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:40 pm

    Honestly, I just used it so I could make a SL 3 invader.
    But I use unupgraded weapons, Calamity Ring, and of course good ol' Dragon Form, with out the roar.
    I try to keep it fair.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by User1 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:41 pm

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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by EeAyEss on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:44 pm

    No, it's fine, Animaal. You weren't in any wrong, except that at the last bit you cut it a bit close. As I said in my OP, you were entitled to whatever you wanted to say, as long as it wasn't flaming or outright bashing. I believe that we can argue if we want; it's not a bad thing, it's a way of discussion and debate.

    FYI, to those who "attacked" Animaal for stubbornly refusing to change his opinion, are we not doing the same?


    That being said, it's time to end this thread. It is clear now that this is getting out of hand, and we need to end it before it starts something akin to the covenant wars of... however many months ago.



    As in the words of the Jurassic Park hunter dude...




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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Jansports on Thu Apr 04, 2013 6:59 pm

    Animaaal - You DID use the Fallacy of Division. The Implication of your sarcastic "what about saving time for pvp builds." Is that the mega mule has done harm to the game in the form it took in the post you were responding to. The justification for the mule being that it saves people dozens of hours making pvp builds is grouped in with the less savory use of the technique by association.

    Now I think you don't see it that way because you (in)genuinely present your opinion that saving time isn't a worthwhile feature.

    Which is haberdash. While the BBG was around Co-op and random invasions were active as ever. Your assertion that the ability to quickly make and test PvP builds would turn the other multiplayer parts of the game into no mans land is wrong, factually. Because while we could BBG they were not dead in the least, they were active.

    And what do you think testing a pvp build is anyhow? It's playing against OTHER PLAYERS. There is no want or call for some NPC to fight against with our quickly made PvP builds, we want to fight OTHER PLAYERS

    If Anything being able to finish a build faster would INCREASE the amount of multiplayer happening, as instead of me finishing Dukes, Forum killing Nito and a handful of guys dueling. Forum and I would already be dueling with that handful of other people.
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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Emergence on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:03 pm

    This isn't being locked because it is a discussion that needs to happen, but it needs to return to civility and thoughtful expression.

    I am too busy to elaborate on any on topic points at the moment but I will return to them.

    I will say I never suggested some kind of offline testing area apart from pve, so not sure why that is being inserted into my words.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Animaaal on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:14 pm

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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by EeAyEss on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:17 pm

    Animaal damnit, how many times must I say that you're fine in saying what you did?


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Emergence on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:27 pm

    Animaaal wrote:@EeAyEss

    deleted

    @E

    Thats naturally what build testing or features allowing such would possibly lead to. Wasn't trying to put words in your mouth.

    @everyone

    Careful what you wish for. You might just get a huge Dark Souls arena that fails in comparison to other actual fighting games, or something that is so far from the souls experience, you might wonder why the title has Dark Souls in it at all.

    For real though, you deserve your conversation. Sorry I disrupted it so by: defending myself, clearing up false allegations, and just stating overall relevant opinions.

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    laters

    Enough with these bow-outs, they aren't gracious, no one is tossing you out and this same thing happened with the FC conversation. They are needlessly dramatic and steer the focus away from the on topic conversation.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Jansports on Thu Apr 04, 2013 7:33 pm

    What I don't understand mainly is two things. First you keep mentioning some offline build tester that from what I can tell noone else has mentioned or asked for, generally one would assume to test a pvp build you'd need to uhhh pvp which is online, and multi player.

    Second you say (in your opinion) that immediate access to new builds would hurt Co-Op and random invasions. Which it didn't. While we had the BBG co op and invasions were as active as ever, even now it can be most any time of day and I see signs down for O&S and Arty. I mean we can look at a period of time when Instant PvP build were possible. We don't have to speculate or make assumptions, it happened and multiplayer was alive and well while it was happening.
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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by skarekrow13 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:40 pm

    Ok I admit it.....

    I tried it. I made a sl55 and a sl400 because hey, why not. It was such a whirlwind. I equate this to a game genie back in the nes days. It's an interesting novelty for the game itself but I would get bored in pve in no time. For players like me, there's a good chance it will keep us playing. I seriously doubt I would have ever finished my 55er. I don't have a lot of time and my ambition is waning more with every ps+ game stacking up. I see the potential to grief ( especially with stacked spells) but honestly I can't remember the last time I wasn't fighting someone in maxed gear anyway. Seriously, my GremKing at 17 found no one in base anyway. And it's been like that in my experience for some time.

    There is at least one thing I HATE about this though..... it gave me trophies I didn't earn. I felt like scum seeing them pop up and that's silly because I already have platinum but not on that account.

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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by reim0027 on Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:51 pm

    My opinion is this. And, please, don't take it the wrong way. I'm not singling out anyone, just stating my opinion.

    This is a double edged sword.

    It is a godsend to people who play this game for PvP, so-called hardcore PvPers. These people will obsess over 1 wasted point. They will redo entire builds because of it. +14 is unacceptable as is 41 endurance and 22 Attunement. They enjoy min/maxing to the ultimate. The only way to learn your build is to make it and try it out. Numbers are a guide only. I know, because I am one of the obsessed.

    Many of the arguments I've read are from people who obviously aren't hard core PvPers. Their arguments show a fundamental lack of understanding of what goes into a good PvP build. During the time to make a build (10+) hours, many people feel cheated. Wondering about wasted time. What they are missing in the PvP scene. Only to make a build and have it fail. Then, they have to go through the same thing again.

    Now, the flip side. There are people who crave the RPG side of this. They love taking the time to develop a toon. To feel a bond with it, a sense of pride. When they get invaded, they can feel cheated. Especially if there is the perception that the invader wasn't fair or cheap (for example this glitch). Many hard core PvPers don't fully understand this (including myself).

    It is even worse if they are right. They feel let down, upset. They see it as a slow decay of their DkS enjoyment. And, there are PvPers out there who get ganked often. They feel the same way and think there would be less gankers if there wasn't a mule like this one.

    On top of this, the perception (right or wrong) is that there will be less co-oping and more low level griefing.

    This glitch can be used "morally" (i.e. designed to promote online activity) and "immorally" (i.e. promoting the decline of online activity - intentional or not).

    tl;dr - I don't know. It is great and awful at the same time. Maybe we, as a community, are better off without such a divisive and sundering feature.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:01 am

    There is a very good chance the quester would feel cheated regardless though. In a 1v1 fight with a hard core pvper, its likely the fight was over before it even started, the lone quester is likely to be absolutely wrecked in short order.

    I've been there. Even knowing (intelluctually) it was fair, it still doesn't feel that way.

    I'm a very self aware and thoughtful person, so its easy for me to make this distinction, to know that it was my failing, but based on the hatemail we've all gotten at some point, its fair to say many people cannot make that distinction without guidance (if they're even willing to accept it at all.)

    Griefers don't help, to be certain, but there's no way to be rid of them. They were around before the first bb was well known. All the new glitch will do is give them spells, but we didn't really stand a chance when they didn't have spells, so that changes nothing.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Dutchy on Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:58 am

    Man... really interested in what Animaal said. I agree with reim's point of view on this. If only there was a test where one would be judged on their actions in life as to whether this power would be available. But then again, I know really nice guys who just get a kick out of griefing.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by VaDoom on Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:41 am

    I created a new account and (almost) used it.

    The first thing I did was warping to the chamber of the princess to do a plunging attack on Smough just for the lulz
    The big guy took the damage and didn't even react.
    I killed him and Orstein never showed sad, then I homewarded to firelink.

    I will definitely use it, but only for mule purpose. Even if I'm not one of the bests at PvP, I'm still an hardcore PvPer and I like to have my builds polished.

    One of the "good" things I could do with it :
    I have a 40/40 SL125 build, this was just a try, but it took me like 10 hours to do.
    I'm not fully satisfied with it, and after using my 27/40 SL100 build in the fight club, I have the feeling that 27/40 would be far enough for my SL125 too.
    That's 13 points to use elsewhere. Attunement? Faith? Vitality? Or even making it a SL120 would be a solution.
    This feature can save me at least 10hours.

    Half "bad" things I could be tempted to do :
    I have a WoG spammer build in progress. A very lame one :
    Cursed + RTS + power within + sanctus + crown of dusk + dusk ring + dark moon talisman. etc..
    It will be a forest hunter aiming to 2/3 shot gankers.
    This isn't complete right know and definitely having some free stacks of WoG would be welcome.
    The build isn't complete right now, although it's been in progress for a long time. Why isn't it? Because the finality of it isn't that much interesting imo. I would probably use it out of boredom.
    Will I complete it? I'm not even sure.
    If it's done, will it be on a mule account? I'm not for it right now, but it could save me some time again. Even if I do it, it's not like I will be WoG spamming all day long, I think this could entertain me 10 min once in a while at best. It's wouldn't do anything good to my PvP skills in the end.

    What I'm trying to say here is this feature won't change people states of mind.
    This could introduce more spell spammers, but I don't think it will create more griefers/gankers of any kind, or these new griefers/gankers will be people with very low will.
    I don't even want to offence griefers/gankers here, people play the game as they like to play it, and people doing supposedly "bad" things in a game are not necessarily "bad" people.

    imo, this is is more good than bad, it has the very potential to make the pvp community better. And in the end, I kinda don't care about the rest. I don't think this will affect new players experience that much.
    As for the co-op, it can even be used to create tons of toons at every level possible to help for any bosses. I'm sure that the ones that love co-oping could do that easily.


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by Jansports on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:48 am

    Your avatar and location being france makes me think of Les Fleur du Mal and how much Baudelaire made me think I was a super special snowflake when I was in highschool.
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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by ublug on Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:56 am

    Reim pretty much summed up my feelings on this from a competitive pvp viewpoint, it's a godsend. But what bothers me with this being freely available is the potential to take it even further; soul level 1 with a maxed out character, infinite health and stamina, weapons that inflict curse, and so on. The active dark souls community is also pretty small, and the dlc availability can be seen as a slap in the face of the developers. I've been involved in other game communities that suddenly turned sour because of their actions toward the developer, I really hope that won't happen here.

    And lastly, for those of you that do endorse this; don't come crying if it blows up in your face.
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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by KrazykevS10 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:23 am

    How the hell do you people find out about this stuff? I don't really want to do it but Google turns up nothing.Damn government conspiracies... :suspect:


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    Re: A serious can of worms. Namely, the new "bbg"

    Post by VaDoom on Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:29 am

    Jansports wrote:Your avatar and location being france makes me think
    of Les Fleur du Mal and how much Baudelaire made me think I was a super
    special snowflake when I was in highschool.
    I read Les Fleurs du Mal (maybe not every poem) when I was in highschool, and it was even part of the graduation exam.
    My avatar isn't related to this, as far as I know. I asked for a new avatar in the off topic section and RenegadeCop found it for me . But I see what you mean here.
    French being my mother tongue, I don't really understand what you mean by "super
    special snowflake".
    Do you mean you were "so full of yourself"?


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