When using your fists...

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    Derpwraith
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    When using your fists...

    Post by Derpwraith on Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:59 pm

    It bothers me how in Dark Souls your fists can't even kill even the weakest of enemy quick enough.

    In Dark Souls II, they should try increasing your fists AR everytime you level up (starting at 20 every stat you spend boosts AR for your fists by 5, but spending points on strength should increase AR by 10?)

    I don't enjoy the fact that the chosen CANT use his/her fists, I WANNA PUNCH STUFF TO DEATH!


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Dibsville on Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:06 am

    InfiniteDoomsday wrote:It bothers me how in Dark Souls your fists can't even kill even the weakest of enemy quick enough.

    In Dark Souls II, they should try increasing your fists AR everytime you level up (starting at 20 every stat you spend boosts AR for your fists by 5, but spending points on strength should increase AR by 10?)

    I don't enjoy the fact that the chosen CANT use his/her fists, I WANNA PUNCH STUFF TO DEATH!
    Strength already increases your AR, just not by a lot. It caps at 25 I think?


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Slarg232 on Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:14 am

    Just use Cestus silly


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:15 am

    I was thinking more, crits and the kick should be replaced with high damage tackles/grabs/throws (eg gullotine, triangle choke, kamora) as that would be the proper way to deal with an armored opponent while unarmed.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by TheNewMessiah on Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:06 pm

    Forum Pirate wrote:I was thinking more, crits and the kick should be replaced with high damage tackles/grabs/throws (eg gullotine, triangle choke, kamora) as that would be the proper way to deal with an armored opponent while unarmed.

    I like that idea. However, I believe your stats should also effect punches as well. More strength means heavy punches, hooks, and parries where a punch delivered to the stomach to make the victim belt over followed by a knee to their face, whereas backstabs should involve grabbing the victim's arm and violenly throwing them down, followed by a curb stomp. More dexterity should result in jabs that aim for pressure points with parries that will harm the victim with a spin-kick and a backstab that has the enemy struck by a precise punch in the spine, causing them to lean back in a reaction to the pain, followed by an elbow to the face to knock them down. Kicks should also change according to stats, in my opinion. Strength characters should get access to a powerful riot-kick that can break a greatshield's block and can knock down an unshielded enemy instead of just a stagger. Dexterity characters should gain the ability to use a sweeping kick like Marvelous Chester's that although cannot knock down an enemy, but can damage and stagger.
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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Derpwraith on Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:31 pm

    TheNewMessiah wrote:
    Forum Pirate wrote:I was thinking more, crits and the kick should be replaced with high damage tackles/grabs/throws (eg gullotine, triangle choke, kamora) as that would be the proper way to deal with an armored opponent while unarmed.

    I like that idea. However, I believe your stats should also effect punches as well. More strength means heavy punches, hooks, and parries where a punch delivered to the stomach to make the victim belt over followed by a knee to their face, whereas backstabs should involve grabbing the victim's arm and violenly throwing them down, followed by a curb stomp. More dexterity should result in jabs that aim for pressure points with parries that will harm the victim with a spin-kick and a backstab that has the enemy struck by a precise punch in the spine, causing them to lean back in a reaction to the pain, followed by an elbow to the face to knock them down. Kicks should also change according to stats, in my opinion. Strength characters should get access to a powerful riot-kick that can break a greatshield's block and can knock down an unshielded enemy instead of just a stagger. Dexterity characters should gain the ability to use a sweeping kick like Marvelous Chester's that although cannot knock down an enemy, but can damage and stagger.
    All of that's fine, just as long as I can do this to another player


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by tinypantha on Thu Mar 28, 2013 9:13 pm

    ^ That is how we open the Door in the Demon Centipede area...


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Paragon on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:20 am

    For real. As a martial artist I would love if there was a way to make hand to hand combat viable in DS2. I like the idea of the cestus but the animations for fist fighting in DS are HORRIBLY done. Rightly so since medieval european martial arts relied almost entirely upon weaponry. Though present during that time period, boxing did not enjoy the same popularity it does today. Wrestling styles such as Lancashire wrestling, Gouren, and Schwingen would have been more popular but none of these styles would allow you to fight demons as they rely upon you being roughly the same mass or of greater mass then your opponent. Imagine trying to wrestle with a taurus demon (If you know what Schwingen is you would realise how mufugginly stupid that would look.

    No their needs to be some way to improve the animations for fist fighting not just the damage it does. Take Andre of Astora for example. When you fight him he is actually using a combination of 19th century style boxing mixed with some pro wrestling moves of the modern era. If From Soft can be so historically accurate with one of the NPC's why can't they do the same for the player character. After all the DWGR changed your rolling animation making it better, why not a ring that makes fist fighing viable and aesthetically pleasing as well. Combat is an art form, while by nature it must be brutal there is also much beauty in it. Why not bring that beauty forward and make it evident.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Nugget on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:27 am

    Fists also need a way better moveset in DS2. It is completely ridiculous that there are swords you can swing faster than you can throw a punch. If I can't punch a giant dragon to death with my bare hands, then why even make a DS2?


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Paragon on Fri Mar 29, 2013 3:49 am

    Nugget wrote:Fists also need a way better moveset in DS2. It is completely ridiculous that there are swords you can swing faster than you can throw a punch. If I can't punch a giant dragon to death with my bare hands, then why even make a DS2?

    In regards to your first sentence, I literally just said that. Either way I agree and would +1 you but Ive already given all the votes I can for today. But don't worry, you'll be at 2 rep here shortly.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by morte on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:50 am

    Well, on a boxing run, you can usually just use the cestus, but I do agree, a more diverse movepool for the boxers out there would be nice.....especially if we could actually freakin' block.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by GrinTwist on Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:56 am

    You know we do have the caestus to use in PVE right?

    I don't like the idea of being able to kill enemies with my bare hands in a game that is supposed to be hard, granted we shouldn't throw out the martial arts style. If anything a few more fist weapons wouldn't be a bad idea to have in the next Dark Souls.

    Oh and let's not forget Dark Hand.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Seignar on Fri Mar 29, 2013 1:02 pm

    One thing I want to suggest for Fist Weapons is the ability to feint. When you throw an attack, you can cancel the animation by rolling. I wouldn't like Bare Fists to scale with you as that removes incentive to find gear. Besides, if you want strong fists, use Dragon Torso.

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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Acarnatia on Fri Mar 29, 2013 7:26 pm

    That bit about Midieval and Renaissance manual martial arts being not used is incorrect. In that place and time, training to use one's own body and one's weapons were not considered different studies at all and at least most who had an extensive training in weapons was capable in hand-to-hand.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:53 pm

    There are also eastern influinces (ie katana) and jujitsu and ninjitsu have been around for a while, in varying forms, and all are intended to deal with potentially armed and/or armored opponents, while unarmed.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Paragon on Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:57 pm

    I never said they were not used. I said boxing was not as popular then as it is today. One's skill with a sword was considered far more important than their hand to hand skills. Fist-fighting on the whole was considered unrefined and barbaric. Swordsmanship was more inline with the way of chivalry, though you are right about fist fighting not being unused.

    In the future I suggest you not try to correct me without reading what I wrote. I know what Im talking about when it comes to martial arts. If you wanna stump me in martial arts history, practice, or culture your gonna have to bring more to the table buddy.

    Regardless my point is we need a cooler moveset for fist fighting in DS2 and I think everyone can agree on that.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Forum Pirate on Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:08 pm

    You cant crit the big guys, and kicks accomplish nothing against them, thus the idea of holds (against roughly human sized opponents) is still entirely valid.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Mar 29, 2013 10:32 pm

    the way you fight on dark souls is what i like to 'meat and potatoes' fighting. It's not pretty, it's not flowery. You're not gonna think how cool you look doing it, it's just the simplest most effecting form of fighting.

    I think therefore martial arts and stuff like that are probably best left out.. they could look gimmicky too, which definitely goes against souls really.

    I do with you could do more damage unarmed.. but i mean you could just use caestus and you wouldn't know tbf.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Paragon on Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:41 pm

    Serious_Much wrote:the way you fight on dark souls is what i like to 'meat and potatoes' fighting. It's not pretty, it's not flowery. You're not gonna think how cool you look doing it, it's just the simplest most effecting form of fighting.

    I think therefore martial arts and stuff like that are probably best left out.. they could look gimmicky too, which definitely goes against souls really.

    I do with you could do more damage unarmed.. but i mean you could just use caestus and you wouldn't know tbf.

    I suppose your right about it looking gimicky. You are wrong however if your trying to imply that the way the character fist fights in Dark Souls is more effective than actual martial arts. I respect you Serious but ignorance has its limits.

    (Ignorance: being unaware of something)


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Serious_Much on Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:45 pm

    i was referring more in general to the way you fight with weapons in souls, obviously with your fists the undead are pretty retarded, even i can throw a better punch silly

    but because the weapon movesets are very much tailored to the 'have a go hero' kind of simple, but effective swings, i think it's probably best the fist fights stay the same.

    hope this clarifies my point happy


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Paragon on Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:04 am

    Oh okay. Yeah that makes more sense. You are absolutely right about the weapon techniques modeled into the game.

    The first time I saw my character swing a katana I went "Oh God Dark Souls. No, that's not okay. Stahp." Seriously, if any of my students swung their sword like that I'd smack em over the head.

    But it makes sense that the Chosen Undead not know how to use the weapons s/he is wielding properly. After all s/he has been in the Asylum for Gwyn knows how long and even then might not have been trained to begin with. Who knows?

    Maybe there will be spells that allow you to buff your fist but only if you have no weapon equipped. That would be interesting cheers


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by morte on Sat Mar 30, 2013 12:33 am

    Well, the games aren't about accuracy, they're about fun. For example, you can't properly block with a weapon at all, it ruins the edge, and most of the time with longswords, battles weren't done with slashes, but pierce attacks, if the blade part was used at all on an armored opponent since, as before, significant damage to the blade makes it useless, even chipping it can mean death.

    I think that the dev's idea was that, ltimately, the entire game is inaccurate, so why bother with the little details like that?


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Acarnatia on Sat Mar 30, 2013 1:14 am

    ... there's so much wrong with that post regarding western weapons...
    Bladed weapons were able to block. A partly broken weapon is still has uses. Slashing was always useful right alongside thrusting-the notion that it wasn't is mostly an incorrect statement that's been thrown around by ignorant modern fencers.
    If that information is regarding katanas, then I'm out of my area of expertise. I do know that katanas were harder and more brittle, more likely to outright snap or chip than western ones. (they had their own structural issues as well)
    Actually, Dark Souls combat (besides the character putting everything into each attack and the lack of feinting) is pretty realistic. And simply saying 'it was based on the idea X' doesn't hold any value if 'X' (in this case, 'its unrealistic so we'll just not care about realism') is a flawed concept-and a lack of realism in something that requires some measure of realism is a flaw.

    This is a video of tests done with battle-ready (actual carbon/spring steel blades designed fairly accurately to actual combat arms) with test cutting on chainmail and a functional plate helmet.



    And several of these are longswords, which aren't always that sharp. A little-known technique with longswords, aka bastard swords, hand-and-a-half swords and knightly swords, was to hold the sword by the just-sharp-enough blade and attack plate armor with the handle, using the crossguard quillions basically as a pick that went right through the armor. Longswords and greatswords lost a razor edge too quickly and wore down the blade too quickly for sharpening them so finely to be of any use-and even dulled enough to hold by the blade, they cut through quite well.
    Take a look at the wikipedia page on Longswords and a few of the links on it.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by Slarg232 on Sun Mar 31, 2013 2:54 am

    I know how to make EVERYONE happy;

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    Worn by a Blacksmith long ago, these gauntlets grant the wearer incredibly strength, and some of his ferocity.
    Two of them in the game, deals 200/300/400 D/D STR/Dex, R1 is a jab, R2 is a Dropkick.


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    Re: When using your fists...

    Post by mr_no_face on Sun Mar 31, 2013 11:51 am

    Speaking of the downfall of fist techniques. I want to know why can't we use the dark hand as a shield AND do the humanity drain on the left hand . It has to be in the right to do the humanity drain >.< so if i wanna do both i have to have 2 dark hands. WHICH brings me to my next point. I wanna be able to use practically every weapon just as the enemy uses them. Some weapons were cool when the enemy used them but when i picked it up i didn't have that move set


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