My thoughts on Square Enix

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    Deathsitexxi
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    My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:09 pm

    My perspective on why Square Enix games don’t sell as well in North America.

    I read an article yesterday about Square Enix games not selling “well” in America, and for some reason wrote this. It’s rather long and the grammar kind of sucks but I figured I wrote it I might as well post it somewhere. Let me know what you think are the issues with Square in general, if you think there are any issues at all.

    Does anybody remember the PS1 era of Square games? I remember them all very well. Why? Because when a game came out that said “Square Soft” on the case, I bought it with no questions asked. After Final Fantasy VII came out it was like Square Soft could do no wrong, but they also had a wider variety of genres. Games like Brave Fencer Musashi, Tobal , Xenogears, Bushido Blade, Parasite Eve, Front Mission Ehrgeiz, Einhander, and Vagrant Story. Sure for the most part they were known for their traditional JRPGs, but they were trying different things, which to me was always exciting. In those days, it seemed to me Square’s mantra was “What games do we want to make? Forget the risks let’s put it all out there!” I don’t think they just came up with ideas and put them into production without weighing the risks, but I do think things were a bit freer flowing during this time. I spent countless hours with these games and I have fond memories of them all. You could say it’s just nostalgia, and I would somewhat agree with you, I do factor that in. However, to this day I could still play most of these games (old graphics, controls and all) and have a good time with them.

    Moving on to the Playstation 2 era we see some heavy hitters like: Kingdom Hearts, Final Fantasy X, Star Ocean, Drakengard, Valkyrie Profile 2 and Dirge of Cerberus. There was also a merger with Enix during this time which created the company we know today as Square Enix. During this era, understandably, Square seemed to change their approach. They started asking themselves a different question “What games are we willing to make? Let’s pick and choose carefully.” This was kind of a given, upon absorbing Enix they gained a much larger library of games to pull from. Games with fan bases already in place, games that were “guaranteed” to make money. Even before the merger though, their mind set had changed to this. I’m not saying they half assed any of these games, but I will say during the Playstation 2 era they started to “streamline” their games. Final Fantasy X is a perfect example of this.

    Something I’ve always loved about Final Fantasy was taken out of the tenth version of the series, the World Map. To most, including myself at the time, it didn’t matter much, Final Fantasy X was a great game and I’m not ashamed to say I really enjoyed it. Looking back as a fan though, I can see that it was the beginning of a negative trend of cutting corners in the series. The open world map design sacrificed for tighter narrative and total Dev control of the flow of the game. However, there were more positives than negatives: excellent music, a fun battle system, awesome graphics, and for the first time ever. . . Voice acting! It was and still is hard to dislike the game if you are a Final Fantasy fan.

    From this, we got the first sequel to a numbered Final Fantasy ever, Final Fantasy X-2. It doesn’t matter if you loved or hated this game, the fact of the matter is that X-2 was a recycled Final Fantasy X and was an attempt to cash in on the success of Final Fantasy X. Though I may have disliked the story and the changes they made to certain characters, I did enjoy the slight changes to the battle system (the changing outfits were kind of fun). That said, it was hard for me to complete this game. Not because of my dislike for the changes, but because I couldn’t shake the “cheap cash in” feeling. I couldn’t believe that the first sequel to a numbered Final Fantasy ended up being this game. In my mind, as the game was being developed, I thought “Oh man, they don’t have to create any new resources and can really focus on making the story that much better!” They didn’t have to make anything from the ground up, they reused areas, characters, monsters, etc. and the story we got was goofy and very nonsensical, which when compared to Final Fantasy X’s story was a big 180.

    I used to be one of those guys that said “I’ve played every numbered Final Fantasy since its release, and I’m not about to miss an entry to the series” which prompted me to buying Final Fantasy XI. Yes, I bought the hard drive for the PS2 and played from my couch for 2 long years that I will never get back and I loved it. Being my first MMO experience I truly became an addict. Then Final Fantasy XII came out, and coming from my MMO addiction it was an easy transition to get into it. As a matter of fact, it was eerie just how much the 2 games had in common game play wise. To me, because of my in depth experience with XI, XII seemed like another quick cash in because of its MMO like feel and presentation. Copied and then pasted the MMO experience into a single player game making the graphics prettier and hoping no one would notice. Instead of partying with a group of my friends, I was programming them with in-game macros thereby making them an extension of myself. Don’t get me wrong, the art style was good and the production value was top notch. I had fun playing Final Fantasy XII, but I felt like they assumed most people skipped XI because it was online only, so they recycled several game mechanics from that knowing nobody would know the difference.

    Enter Final Fantasy XIII & the PS3 era

    Who didn’t stare at this game in awe when the Sqenix first started to tease this game? All of the fan-boy inside of me came to life as I watched and read every preview. I bought this game so excited, and by the time I was done with it I felt…nothing really. What I mean by that is, I played the game, thought it was good and didn’t touch it again. It didn’t dawn on me until months later when I was recommending games to my friend that I realized I was disappointed with the game. I not going to sit here and dog Final Fantasy XIII and its developers because they did their jobs and made a good JRPG, it just doesn’t seem to fit into the Final Fantasy series. And honestly, no one should be surprised at the linearity in the game because the series has been heading this direction since X. I even try to look at it in a cultural manner, as in; this game is perfect for the Japanese person who doesn’t have a ton of time to play games but wants their Final Fantasy fix. You can play the game in shorter sittings then you could other Final Fantasy games and accomplish enough to satisfy that RPG gamer inside of you. You don’t feel like you left any stone unturned because there were not that many stones to turn really, perfect for any OCD gamers out there. Then came Final Fantasy XIII-2…

    I won’t lie to anyone here; I have yet to play Final Fantasy XIII-2. Not because I hated XIII so much I couldn’t be bothered to play it, but because I was focused on playing other games I was more interested in. Which in lies two big problems for Square in my eyes; series fatigue and fans seeing Final Fantasy XIII-2 as the next phase of Square Enix’s negative evolution, causing fans to become disinterested in their products. As a fan it seems as if they are not really concerned with what we want to play but are asking themselves “What can we re-use and re-package and call a brand new game? What is the biggest bang for our buck?” Now let’s not lie to ourselves and look like entitled cry baby gamers. No one asked for those experimental games like Tobal, Ehrgeiz, Drakengaurd or Bushido Blade and we loved them. They didn’t “listen” to us then, so nothing has really changed there. However, with that mantra change from the PS1 era “What games do we want to make?” to the PS3 era “How can we make the most money?” the nature of said games are changing into fake and empty feeling products. In the end, they are a company and companies are doing everything they can to make money but in some ways it feels like they have lost their fire for making games and are just going through the motions. When I say this I am referring to the main Square Enix company and not their satellite game makers.

    A good example of what I mean is the new Tomb Raider. Tomb Raider’s single player experience is great; it’s Arkham City but with graphic kills. This game could have been a new IP all together but it was re-packaged as “Tomb Raider” for the name. With that being said, Crystal Dynamics did a great job making this game. Whether you like the direction of the series or not you can see the passion they put into making this game. It reminds me of the kind of games Square Enix used to make.

    I look at my current PS3 game collection and there are maybe 2-3 core Square Enix games that I’ve purchased. This is a far cry from what my PS1 and PS2 collection looks like. Maybe I grew out of Square Enix’s style of gaming, but I can’t help but think it’s more along the lines of I’m waiting for the old Square to return.


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by User1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:17 pm

    Anyone remember Legend of Mana? A great game from the PS1 era.

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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Filiagro on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:29 pm

    Legend of Mana was great. Saga Frontier was an amazing Squaresoft creation as well.

    Totally stopped playing FF at XIII and did not even consider buying the sequel. I don't even pay any attention to SquareEnix anymore. Atlus still does good stuff, I think at least...
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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:35 pm

    Of course I remember Legend of Mana!

    As for the Square stuff I think seven was the begin of the decline. Not necessarily that the games were worse from there on but with seven it was highly regarded as a masterpiece of storytelling. The final fantasy games before seven, I can barely tell you what the story was. Even ones I've replayed recently. Eight was also an adventure in narrative (and I think a better job than seven) and from there we've seen devolution (whip it good) into more and more story based. I like your point about recycling things to make new games. X-2 and XIII-2 seemed that way. I never played XI so I, like you suggested, didn't even know XII borrowed from it. I liked XII but mostly because the artwork reminded me of Vagrant Story which I loved. I barely recall the story even though I remember that there was a lot of it. I just couldn't bring myself to care a whole lot. With XIII I was so eager to play it. I was just finishing Demons Souls and had a month off with my newborn daughter. I got to play a lot of games thanks to babies sleeping so much. I wanted a Demons platinum so much that I spent two weeks for a Pure Bladestone to get it. All the while FFXIII was sitting collecting dust with me getting more and more impatient to play it. Sadly, looking back, despite the frustration I value the two weeks of tedious farming more. At least I remember it. At least I have a story to tell. At least I accomplished something. Final Fantasy XIII was fun. But lots of games are fun. Spongebob games are fun. But Final Fantasy used to be legendary. So fun is simply a disappointment to me now.


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by User1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:38 pm

    It's true. Spongebob games are fun, at least the first time.
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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by RANT on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:43 pm

    dude you forgot dragon quest 8, their best game on ps2 imo. but yeah they suck now lol, sad but true. also, star ocean 1 and 2 were amazing, the rest were meh. it sucks that after they merged all their frachises just were not as good and some were pretty bad.


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:45 pm

    The only Square games I really like are more so just published by them, for example Just Cause 2. Or Deus Ex: HR.

    I can't really think of a single game actually developed by Square themself that I liked.
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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Hue on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:15 pm

    I've seen some text walls in my internet life

    This must be number 3 or 4


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Dubscythe on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:39 pm

    I don't care about Square Enix all that much but I swear to god if Bravely Default isn't localized I may kill someone.


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:55 pm

    Hachouma wrote:I've seen some text walls in my internet life

    This must be number 3 or 4

    Love it.

    I still have faith in Final Fantasy, it's just a matter of time before they realise their error they made in FFXIII, which i havent even finished it bored me so much..

    I think a remake of VII could only work wonders for them. I have no doubt everyone would get on their "veteran" high horse and complain it's not as good as the original regardless of how it turns out, but frankly if they looked at what made their older games great- exploration, lots of options in character shaping and usage, fun little minigames (triple triad anyone)...

    In my eyes the two games which epitamise the series for me is VII and VIII. They had the best balance (regardless of whether the stories match up to some others), of what made final fantasy, final fantasy...

    I can only hope eh?

    Can't really speak much for the publisher in general, but it scooped up the excellent series like tomb raider and hitman, so i guess they're doing something right, even if it isn't in their classic rpg element.


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:07 pm

    Going with less androgynous male characters may also help sales in America.
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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:12 pm

    It's not square's fault that they make generally asian characters, so naturally the men aren't gonna be all that remarkable in stature or masculinity...

    Actually, yeah it kinda is.. Guess they need to put in some manly men... though to be honest if they start churning out gears of war esque characters im not gonna be happy.


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:21 pm

    "And now, I the villain, shall destroy the world!"

    "NOT IF WE THE HEROES DESTROY IT FIRST!"

    But yeah, seeing tons of people like that definitely doesn't make me interested. And I'm an American, so I know right eh?

    It's hard to relate to such feminine male characters for me. Or to take them seriously. I almost had the same issue with Dante of Devil May Cry though he isn't supposed to be taken seriously.

    When I'm supposed to believe that a skinny tall man with long blond hair and a very feminine figure wielding a massive katana one handed with a single wing is a villain that should be taken seriously, I can't help but laugh personally.
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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Hue on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:49 pm

    Tolvo wrote:"And now, I the villain, shall destroy the world!"

    "NOT IF WE THE HEROES DESTROY IT FIRST!"

    But yeah, seeing tons of people like that definitely doesn't make me interested. And I'm an American, so I know right eh?

    It's hard to relate to such feminine male characters for me. Or to take them seriously. I almost had the same issue with Dante of Devil May Cry though he isn't supposed to be taken seriously.

    When I'm supposed to believe that a skinny tall man with long blond hair and a very feminine figure wielding a massive katana one handed with a single wing is a villain that should be taken seriously, I can't help but laugh personally.

    Bad guys don't always need to wear a black hooded cloak with a scar across their eye and a fake leg

    Sometimes it's nice to have something slightly more indistinguishable from normal people.
    Real life bad guys usually try not to attract attention (and be mocked by others)

    Although being a skinny tall man with long blond hair and a feminine figure does tend to attract attention (and be made fun of)

    Something in between the two would be nice


    Last edited by Hachouma on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:52 pm

    I didn't see he needs to look like a pirate, but I just feel having someone that looks more believable for what they are supposed to be.

    With the example of Gears above, that series has the opposite. All the men are giant muscle monsters, and the females are dainty little things that can also rip apart locusts with their bare hands. That's a case where the females really should have been big musclebombers as well, since the men have to be muscular to be that strong in game.

    Similarly, carrying a massive weapon while looking like you weigh 90 pounds just looks ridiculous. It's fine for a game that isn't taking itself too seriously but from my experiences FF is supposed to be serious for the most part.

    Think of it like seeing a 600 pound fat old man doing acrobatics and being the fastest character in the game. Unless it is supposed to be funny it just comes off as retarded.

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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by User1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:56 pm

    The last part sounds like Rufus.
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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:02 pm

    Sorry for the wall of text in the OP lol. I write a lot in my spare time and usual don't post it anywhere. In reguards to Tolvo's comments, Did you know the orignal main character of Final Fantasy 12 was Basch? I think that change alone would have made the game slightly better or at least helped me overlook the design laziness I thought I saw.

    To add to that look at a game like Neir. The difference between the Western version and Eastern version is something I find very interesting. I do at least wish they had given us the option of either or though.


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Tolvo on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:06 pm

    He definitely seems like a more masculine character from what images I can find of him, a much better front man if you ask me from the idea of a character you have to see on screen all the time.

    I always hate it when they have a cool idea for a game and don't do it since it probably won't sell.

    There was going to be an MGS where you play as The Boss, a strong female soldier that isn't attractive. She's just a tough woman. I would have loved that. They felt that it wouldn't attract enough people to play though.
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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:13 pm

    skarekrow13 wrote:Of course I remember Legend of Mana!

    As for the Square stuff I think seven was the begin of the decline. Not necessarily that the games were worse from there on but with seven it was highly regarded as a masterpiece of storytelling. The final fantasy games before seven, I can barely tell you what the story was. Even ones I've replayed recently. Eight was also an adventure in narrative (and I think a better job than seven) and from there we've seen devolution (whip it good) into more and more story based. I like your point about recycling things to make new games. X-2 and XIII-2 seemed that way. I never played XI so I, like you suggested, didn't even know XII borrowed from it. I liked XII but mostly because the artwork reminded me of Vagrant Story which I loved. I barely recall the story even though I remember that there was a lot of it. I just couldn't bring myself to care a whole lot. With XIII I was so eager to play it. I was just finishing Demons Souls and had a month off with my newborn daughter. I got to play a lot of games thanks to babies sleeping so much. I wanted a Demons platinum so much that I spent two weeks for a Pure Bladestone to get it. All the while FFXIII was sitting collecting dust with me getting more and more impatient to play it. Sadly, looking back, despite the frustration I value the two weeks of tedious farming more. At least I remember it. At least I have a story to tell. At least I accomplished something. Final Fantasy XIII was fun. But lots of games are fun. Spongebob games are fun. But Final Fantasy used to be legendary. So fun is simply a disappointment to me now.

    This is exactly what I was hinting at in the OP with my "not really Final Fantasy matrial comment". Also, I thinkthey are invalidating themselves with this "Oh you didn't like XIII. We will fix it, and we swear you will like it" It's time to move onto bigger and better projects and put the past behind them. I've played so many Square games I'm willing to forgive and forget a "meh" game, but at this point (Lightning Returns...) come on. Sure the game might kick *** and I'm not judging it prematurely but I think their time could be better spent.


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by skarekrow13 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:19 pm

    I looked for Dark Souls 2 for a release date on Amazon. It recommended I also look at lightning returns. I did not take that recommendation.

    On Tolvo's point I think Ashley Riot was a good compromise. A little androgynous but way more believable than say..... cloud. Squall too. Vagrant Story was so stylized I think the characters fit better than FF

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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Serious_Much on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:20 pm

    Basch as the main character? *** that, balthier was the one with all the awesomeness, basch to me was pretty wooden, just a meathead muscle soldier doing his duty.. I actually disliked him as much as the annoying as hell penelo.. and thats pretty hard silly


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    Re: My thoughts on Square Enix

    Post by Deathsitexxi on Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:35 pm

    I actually liked Basch! XD but I can see where you're coming from he was a bit cliche'

    On a side note... I would have bought a game about The Boss in a heart beat. She was very interesting.


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